Tai Chi

[Mal]

[Creation]

Hey Mal.

 

Do you remember in the Bruce Frantzis interview when he talked about the jing, qi, and shen levels? In particular, that practices having to do with manipulating the energy channels of the body, etc. are on the jing level. And that the qi level is much more of a psychological thing? When Frantzis talks about meditation, he is talking about the qi and shen levels. So any of the considerable range of martial qigong practices, moving standing or sitting, that develop things like the dan tian, microsomic orbit, etc., which many Westerners would consider to "meditation" or "spiritual" are actually, by Frantzis definition, not.

 

So the thing about the various styles of Taiji not having meditation, was, put in a different way, saying that they did not deal with the qi and shen levels. (Even thought Taiji does deal with qi, another one of those terminological bugaboos)

 

Also, you may be interested reading this:

http://longmenpai.blogspot.com/2009/01/2005-meridian-taijiquan.html

[Mal]

[Creation]

The impression I get is that BKF is not teaching the meditation aspects of the Wu style at his seminars.

[Stigweard]

Hiya Mal, excellent point of discussion.

 

As pointed out in this thread, Taijiquan is not Daoist in the sense of it being a formal practice of orthodox sects, but it can be considered Daoistic from the view of it being founded on the same indigenous world-view that gave rise to Daoism.

 

Here is a couple of excerpts from Master Hua-Ching Ni:

 

In doing Tai Chi do I set a goal? Doing Tai Chi exercise itself is a goal. The exercise itself is beneficial because it circulates energy. On one level, it disperses the congestion in the head into the four limbs. There are other essential spiritual purposes that can be combined with Tai Chi practice as well. Tai Chi is a gentle way with a coordinating purpose.

 

p49, Life and teaching of Two Immortals, Vol 1

 

The secret of spiritual cultivation is to cultivate the two sides of one's nature in a balanced way: both the sitting still type of cultivation and the active moving type of cultivation. Gentle movement of Tai Chi exercise was initiated after spiritual educators emphasized an inactive, quiet sitting and an inactive, quiet life.

 

<snip>

 

People who wish to live a healthy life or who wish to learn the Integral Way keep their bodies active. By your activity you are always generating new energy. In addition, activity increases your circulation and regulates your system. If your movement or physical activity is not overdone, it is always helpful. How much activity or exercise is proper for a person depends on his or her age and physical condition.

 

p63, Life and teaching of Two Immortals, Vol 1

 

Master Ni then continues over several pages to describe how the gentle movement of Tai Chi, with its associated breathing and intentful focus, naturally converts Jing into Qi. Then however Master Ni advises against the usual outlets of this accumulated Qi into fighting and sex, but instead to direct into the transformation of Shen.

 

Apart from these words from a modern Daoist educator, I have no references to indicate that Taijiquan was in anyway meant to be a Daoist practice.

 

;D

[dwai]

A while back there was this thread - I've copied a few bits and pieces

 

http://www.thetaobum...post__p__226403

 

 

My own Sifu, when I tried to talk about more esoteric aspects of Tai Chi, outside of "practice 2x a day" and "Tai Chi is needed to balance the hard aspects of Tong Long"

Said - "You want more spirituality, come to Church"

 

 

So while Tai Chi is "Taoist" I don't think it was created to "be" Taoist

 

Hence why I'm posting this here for thoughts

 

Hi Mal,

 

I think Taiji Chuan is very much Taoist, albeit it can (and often is) taught in a "secular" manner. Just the same as Yoga is very much Hindu, but can (and often is) taught in a "secular" manner. What specific teachers or schools do with the knowledge and how they wish to disseminate it is their prerogative (in many cases is a result of the blind leading the blind).

 

The goal of Taiji Chuan practice as I've been taught are about union with Tao. The tradition in which I am learning is precisely about that (if you get a chance, read Master Waysun Liao's books) and all our practices lead up to that. We have the martial aspect, Fa Jin training, etc all as part of the curriculum, but as Master Liao is quoted as having said "Martial application of Tai Chi is the lowest level of attainment". According to Master Liao, Martial application is the first step in tai chi practice. Next is Healing...final is Spiritual transformation...of reconnecting with our Te and therefore with Tao.

[Mal]

Also, you may be interested reading this:

http://longmenpai.blogspot.com/2009/01/2005-meridian-taijiquan.html

 

Thanks for the link. Previously most of my "support" for Tai Chi postures opening meridians and working on certain organs came from Erle Montaigue

 

but as Master Liao is quoted as having said "Martial application of Tai Chi is the lowest level of attainment". According to Master Liao, Martial application is the first step in tai chi practice. Next is Healing...final is Spiritual transformation...of reconnecting with our Te and therefore with Tao.

 

That might also explain why my Sifu wouldn't talk about it. "Do the form at least 2x a day" is probable more than I "need" to know to progress.

eg. As a beginner I use to spend hours with my friends discussing how to use Tong Long against MMA. Now, 9 years later our Sigung is teaching us how to do that (we are playing best technique alowed by the rules )... but we had to get past 1+1=2 (i.e. ½ way through the system) before we could even hope to have useful input into such a discussion.

 

So perhaps (at the risk of killing my own discussion) Tai Chi is a big old tree that everyone gets shade from, or firewood, or nuts, or hugs

rather than a constructed awning that only shades you from the sun.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I've checked out a book:

 

Complete Tai-Chi

 

By Master Alfred Huang

 

 

 

Which encompases many aspects of the practice, including the traditional creation story, as well as it's basic benefits.

 

Perhaps there is something more to it than i have read so far, but it seems to me, that you might be digging deeper than the treasure rests?

[GreytoWhite]

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm

 

That is a pretty interesting article.

 

As to healing and spiritual development the Chen family referred my teacher elsewhere to learn such things.

[Mal]

T'AI CHI CH'UAN CHING Attributed to Chang San-feng (est. 1279 -1386)

as researched by Lee N. Scheele

 

A footnote appended to this Classic by Yang Lu-ch'an (1799-1872) reads:

This treatise was left by the patriarch Chan San-feng of Wu Tang Mountain,

with a desire toward helping able people everywhere achieve longevity,

and not merely as a means to martial skill.

 

http://scheele.org/lee/classics.html#tccching

[zerostao]

tai chi chuan taijiquan a taoist (martial)art that uses bagua principles

it is a lifestyle , way of life more than a way to fight.

"the hands that hold (true)taijiquan shakes the entire world"

i dont reckon anyone would wish to fight zhang sanfeng?

some of my bagua bros speak of him as a monster