Can Taoist alchemy goes open source ?

[exorcist_1699]

The practice of having some software, applications or web services done in a way of open source is one of the great accomplishments we human beings achieved in recent decades. Things such as Linux, PHP, Arduino..do not appear as what they are or will never exist without it .

 

Should Taoist alchemy also go open source so that by collective effort, human beings' ability of manipulating qi can be enhanced, or even multiplied , within a short period of time?

 

My answer to this question, unfortunately , is "No".

 

Just like you can't find on internet any detailed explanation of how to make a nuclear bomb( I mean those concrete steps of refuning Plutonium , for example, not just those basic principles) no matter how hard you google, wiki..for the information of it , you can't get the concrete alchemical steps that help you refining your ordinary qi ( ie, qi flow in our body's channels) into pre-heavenly qi so that you can break the gateway , enter an arena of eternal life...,no matter how hard you baidu it.

 

I mean, our civilization is just not mature enough for such a practice at this stage.

Edited September 6, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Sloppy Zhang]

......... ok?

 

Just like you can't find on internet any detailed explanation of how to make a nuclear bomb( I mean those concrete steps of refuning Plutonium , for example, not just those basic principles) no matter how hard you google, wiki..

 

Because the people in possession of that knowledge do not allow it to be released........

 

for the information of it , you can't get the concrete alchemical steps that help you refining your ordinary qi ( ie, qi flow in our body's channels) into pre-heavenly qi so that you can break the gateway , enter an arena of eternal life...,no matter how hard you baidu it.

 

Because the people in possession of that knowledge do not allow it to be released.........

 

I mean, our civilization is just not mature enough for such a practice at this stage.

 

I know. If people realized that they can become liberated, they might quit their jobs. Then we won't have food, electricity, or running water that we can use to support our cushy lifestyles as we sit on a comfy couch, breathing through our testicles, and pontificating on an internet forum!

 

People who aren't ready for that knowledge should just keep doing what they are doing, so I can liberate myself.

[johndoe2012]

I mean, our civilization is just not mature enough for such a practice at this stage.

 

EDIT: What precisely makes our civilization immature?

Edited September 5, 2011 by chris d

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi exorcist. Well some people are openly teaching and it seems that anyone can go and start learning if they are really interested. Maybe it is not so secret these days. It would seem that it is a practice that takes a real commitment of time and effort, and maybe not so many people really have that much interest or enough time or suitable circumstances to practice much even if they do have some interest.

 

However, can such a practice really be entirely presented as a complete set of generic written instructions or does it require the perception and guidance of an accomplished teacher to provide instruction that is specifically customized to each individual, and to only pass on the specific customized instructions at each stage for each individual student as each student becomes ready to understand and absorb it, and which can't just be explained or taught in some generic way? I am inclined to think that this may be the case, so having a book or website that 'explains all' may not even be possible, and may instead open people up to potential harm if they practice something incorrectly or practice something which they are not ready for or which is not suitable for a given individual's actual situation. I am inclined to think that it is not so much about some teachers wanting to keep secrets or thinking that most people are too immature or otherwise incapable (although this may well be a factor), as it is that such a practice can only be properly passed on by an accomplished teacher and a student can only be taught that which they are really ready for and the teachings must also be customized to each individual under the watchful eye of the teacher. Am I wrong?

 

Exorcist, are you learning from a teacher? If not, then where are you learning from, if you don't mind me asking?

Edited September 5, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Informer]

The benefits of having some software, applications or web services done in a way of open source is one of the great accomplishments we human beings achieved in recent decades. Things such as Linux, PHP, Arduino..do not appear as what they are or will never exist without such a practice .

 

This is an interesting comment to open when the rest of what you say is about locking up info. Very deceptive.

 

Should Taoist alchemy also goes open source so that by collective effort, human beings' ability of manipulating qi can be enhanced, or even multiplied , within a short period of time?

 

My answer to this question, unfortunately , is "No".

 

My answer is yes

 

 

Just like you can't find on internet any detailed explanation of how to make a nuclear bomb( I mean those concrete steps of refuning Plutonium , for example, not just those basic principles)

 

This is one of the worst analogies I have ever heard.

 

no matter how hard you google, wiki..for the information of it , you can't get the concrete alchemical steps that help you refining your ordinary qi ( ie, qi flow in our body's channels) into pre-heavenly qi so that you can break the gateway , enter an arena of eternal life...,no matter how hard you baidu it.

 

This just shows that you aren't looking in the right places.

 

I mean, our civilization is just not mature enough for such a practice at this stage.

 

This is quite a courageous thing to be able to admit about your perspective. This is really saying that you are not ready.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Informer

[effilang]

If the internet is by modern standards the underlying material network over which "open-source"-edness can be manifested, then Taoism in it's current state and location on the internet internationally and being more or less freely accessible, has never been MORE open source that is now since it's inception.

 

And unless the whole inter-network collapses some day, it will just continue being more open source and i can only assume this expansion will happen in logarithmic scales proportionate to the springing desperation and material saturation sprouting into maturity among the more contemplative of our kind.

 

Your whole post is a big contradiction.

Edited September 6, 2011 by effilang

[laughingblade]

"Information wants to be free" always sounded weak to me. A projection of personal bias onto inanimate stuff. I think information is little use without knowledge of how to apply it.

 

In the case of Open Source Taoism I wonder where the transmissions would come from?

 

No transmission and Ya Mu's Stillness Movement would just be sitting on my ar5e.

 

Knowledge is indispensible, otherwise we'd be spending all our time pointlessly recompiling kernels or hacking driver code to get it working...

 

Rich

[exorcist_1699]

EDIT: What precisely makes our civilization immature?

 

Only a small portion of the world population can initialize qi themselves ; Qi is still viewed as something strange,let alone the spiritual power refined from qi that can cure...a circle /forum of top Taoist alchemists very likely be viewed as a group of modern shaman and witches...

Edited September 6, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

The Way Is Virtue[/b]' date='05 September 2011 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1315253715' post='288874']

 

However, can such a practice really be entirely presented as a complete set of generic written instructions or does it require the perception and guidance of an accomplished teacher to provide instruction that is specifically customized to each individual, and to only pass on the specific customized instructions at each stage for each individual student as each student becomes ready to understand and absorb it, and which can't just be explained or taught in some generic way?.....

[/quot

 

I have to say ,most steps up to the success of the micro-cosmic circulation are stated , although not in clear sequential steps, in the writings of Wu-Liu school, which are already translated into English and Japanese. However, as a taoist saying tell us : "一層未到一層迷"

 

( "whatever level you have not reached , whatever point you are doomed to be entangled ")

 

There are many points where the readers can only get the literal meanings of what are expressed in

the books...

 

For example, without having successfully initialized embryonic breathing, there is no way of claiming any success in doing the micro-cosmic circulation; in fact, many people are just circulating the qi in the channels but claim themselves doing the circulation ... The point is, the deeply hidden root of all these qi circulating in our body comes from the invisible gate : Mengmen(the gate of life,"命門") ..without the open of it, saying that by just circulating ordinary qi can make us live forever, of course, is not true.

 

And, how can you drop down the steps for telling people to muddle with something invisible ..

Edited September 6, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[ralis]

Only a small portion of the world population can initialize qi themselves ; Qi is still viewed as something strange,let alone the spiritual power refined from qi that can cure...a circle /forum of top Taoist alchemists very likely be viewed as a group of modern shaman and witches...

 

 

Exactly, how have you reached this conclusion? You make this into an elitist pursuit, which is what most teachers agendas are so as to make power, exclusive.

[Informer]

Exactly, how have you reached this conclusion? You make this into an elitist pursuit, which is what most teachers agendas are so as to make power, exclusive.

 

If it's all open source then who can make money off it?

Edited September 6, 2011 by Informer

[NeiChuan]

When you ask this, I feel like your asking if everyone would want to be a talk show host, or musician.

 

Even if it was open to the world, and proven, I feel very few would try to excel in it. In the end only the people who're meant for it will.

 

In the same way an athlete excels at what they do. I Don't exactly think it's for everyone. I don't mean people shouldn't be allowed to practice to be more healthy. Im saying the impression shouldn't always be to surrender all attachments in order to train a lifetime.

 

Unless enlightenment is really ones goal.

[thelerner]

When you ask this, I feel like your asking if everyone would want to be a talk show host, or musician.

 

Even if it was open to the world, and proven, I feel very few would try to excel in it. In the end only the people who're meant for it will.

 

In the same way an athlete excels at what they do. I Don't exactly think it's for everyone. I don't mean people shouldn't be allowed to practice to be more healthy. Im saying the impression shouldn't always be to surrender all attachments in order to train a lifetime.

 

Unless enlightenment is really ones goal.

I think there's enough 'open source' out there to get people all the way. <<edit> All the Way is a bit much, but pretty far, a teacher is probably needed for deepest expertise.>

 

But like mastering music, its not lack of instruments or sheet music; its that people have other goals and paths. More importantly, few have the discipline and time to reach the highest levels.

Edited September 6, 2011 by thelerner

[The Way Is Virtue]

I have to say ,most steps up to the success of the micro-cosmic circulation are stated , although not in clear sequential steps, in the writings of Wu-Liu school, which are already translated into English and Japanese. However, as a taoist saying tell us : "一層未到一層迷"

( "whatever level you have not reached , whatever point you are doomed to be entangled ")

There are many points where the readers can only get the literal meanings of what are expressed in

the books...

For example, without having successfully initialized embryonic breathing, there is no way of claiming any success in doing the micro-cosmic circulation; in fact, many people are just circulating the qi in the channels but claim themselves doing the circulation ... The point is, the deeply hidden root of all these qi circulating in our body comes from the invisible gate : Mengmen(the gate of life,"命門") ..without the open of it, saying that by just circulating ordinary qi can make us live forever, of course, is not true.

And, how can you drop down the steps for telling people to muddle with something invisible ..

 

I think we are in agreement then that this can't really be taught by just a written text, at least not to a high level. The serious student should really spend time to try to find a good teacher IMO, but really this comes down to each person's individual judgement, perception, and intuition. Ultimately it seems there will always be an unknown or unkowable element no matter how one approaches it. At least written texts can give a person some idea of what the system is about and what it is supposed to achieve.

 

Best wishes...

[Stigweard]

LOL Dao already is "open sourced". Hehehehe

 

[宁]

Will brain surgery go open source? Of course it can, but would i trust it?

[hagar]

Taoist alchemy cannot go open source because the process cannot be explained without a teacher transmitting and showing the practice, just like you cannot learn how to ski from a book.

 

That said, the truth is open source.

 

h

[exorcist_1699]

Saying that open- source things can't make money is not exactly correct , for example,

in software area : Red-Hat Linux;

 

In hardware area : Arduino

 

They do make some money.

 

Of course, in the area of Taoist alchemy, a real Taoist guru unlikely loves or even needs money. Money is more likely some kind of obstacle for him ...

Edited September 8, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Sloppy Zhang]

Taoist alchemy cannot go open source because the process cannot be explained without a teacher transmitting and showing the practice, just like you cannot learn how to ski from a book.

 

That said, the truth is open source.

 

h

 

Truth be told, I always found these analogies to be quite limited.

 

Yes, you CAN learn to ski from a book. Yes, you CAN learn to fight from a book. Yes, you CAN learn art from a book. You CAN learn computer programming from a book.

 

Of course, you are going to have to do something. No one said you wouldn't. You can't read a book about computer programming and then declare you're a great programmer if you've made no great programs.

 

You take what you learned in a book and you put it to practice. And then you learn from your direct experience. The book material is just the jumping off point to your direct experience.

 

Similarly, having an "in person" teacher does not guarantee success either, because again, it comes down to whether that teacher can get you to move into the realm of your personal experience. You can have the greatest teacher in the world, but never actually "do" anything, and be outdone by someone who had no teacher, but who managed to "do" a lot more in their experiences.

 

The jumping off point doesn't really matter. It's the quality of experiences that you have after that point.

 

So.......

 

Will brain surgery go open source? Of course it can, but would i trust it?

 

If said brain surgeon can demonstrably show that they can perform-

 

1) better surgery with

2) less risks at a

3) cheaper cost

 

Then hell fucking yes.

 

That's the thing that people seem to forget about "open source"- it ain't just a collection of wiki pages. There are people out there who consistently produce demonstrable results which consistently match, if not exceed, the results from "traditional" sources. There are 16 year olds who learn open source programming who can work with or produce material that exceeds those things made by paid professionals in the same field.

 

It's a matter of results. It's a matter of DOING.

 

Who cares if you learned how to "do" by paying a hundred grand a year so you can go to some ivory tower, or if you learned to "do" by learning for free off the net? What matters is the consistent, demonstrable quality of the "doing".

 

You can pay $500 an hour for an Olympic ski coach, or you can print off a page from the internet about "how to ski". None of it matters, because both people are going to have to get on the slopes and do. And it's the quality of the "doing" that matters.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[realfastcat]

Truth be told, I always found these analogies to be quite limited.

 

Yes, you CAN learn to ski from a book. Yes, you CAN learn to fight from a book. Yes, you CAN learn art from a book. You CAN learn computer programming from a book.

 

Of course, you are going to have to do something. No one said you wouldn't. You can't read a book about computer programming and then declare you're a great programmer if you've made no great programs.

 

You take what you learned in a book and you put it to practice. And then you learn from your direct experience. The book material is just the jumping off point to your direct experience.

 

Similarly, having an "in person" teacher does not guarantee success either, because again, it comes down to whether that teacher can get you to move into the realm of your personal experience. You can have the greatest teacher in the world, but never actually "do" anything, and be outdone by someone who had no teacher, but who managed to "do" a lot more in their experiences.

 

The jumping off point doesn't really matter. It's the quality of experiences that you have after that point.

 

So.......

 

 

 

If said brain surgeon can demonstrably show that they can perform-

 

1) better surgery with

2) less risks at a

3) cheaper cost

 

Then hell fucking yes.

 

That's the thing that people seem to forget about "open source"- it ain't just a collection of wiki pages. There are people out there who consistently produce demonstrable results which consistently match, if not exceed, the results from "traditional" sources. There are 16 year olds who learn open source programming who can work with or produce material that exceeds those things made by paid professionals in the same field.

 

It's a matter of results. It's a matter of DOING.

 

Who cares if you learned how to "do" by paying a hundred grand a year so you can go to some ivory tower, or if you learned to "do" by learning for free off the net? What matters is the consistent, demonstrable quality of the "doing".

 

You can pay $500 an hour for an Olympic ski coach, or you can print off a page from the internet about "how to ski". None of it matters, because both people are going to have to get on the slopes and do. And it's the quality of the "doing" that matters.

 

Excellent post! Most likely coming from experience?

It is good to see this posted here as I was starting to think this forum was just a place for "teachers"

to recruit "students".

How many Taoist Alchemy teachers are available to the public anyways?

My idea is that whatever one is trying to accomplish, it is a matter of , and a combination of

"will and skill". If one has sufficient will they will develop the skill.

In the case of Taoist Alchemy specifically, (if it does actually exist) What prevents a

Spirit Teacher from finding a worthy student? Isn't that also an Open Source?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Most likely coming from experience?

 

Yup

 

Having a teacher is not a guarantee for success, and self study is not a condemnation to failure.

 

It depends on the quality of your practice.

 

The thing about open source communities isn't that they are a disparate collection of wiki entries. They are amateurs (as in, they don't get paid for what they do- not a comment on their skill level) and professionals (as in, they get paid for what they do- not a comment on their skill level) who pool their knowledge to ask and answer questions, to identify problems, and then solve them.

 

In that environment, the "best" is determined by the quality of material that is produced. Not age, not gender, not pedigree. Does it work? Does it work in the best possible way? Is it the best alternative to everything else out there?

 

Not that I'm an expert, but it is what I'd consider to be a highly "taoist" way of doing things- there is no centralized leadership. People and trends flow with what is the most suitable for the time without judgment. An open source programmer may totally revise 90% of material already in use. Or an open source programmer may only need to revise less than 1%, and that person will then just borrow the other 99% from what other people are doing. No judgment. See a need, however big or small, and come up with the best solution.

 

If it is truly the "way" to go (hehe), other people will follow. If not, they won't.

[宁]

Truth be told, I always found these analogies to be quite limited.

 

Yes, you CAN learn to ski from a book. Yes, you CAN learn to fight from a book. Yes, you CAN learn art from a book. You CAN learn computer programming from a book.

 

Of course, you are going to have to do something. No one said you wouldn't. You can't read a book about computer programming and then declare you're a great programmer if you've made no great programs.

 

You take what you learned in a book and you put it to practice. And then you learn from your direct experience. The book material is just the jumping off point to your direct experience.

 

Similarly, having an "in person" teacher does not guarantee success either, because again, it comes down to whether that teacher can get you to move into the realm of your personal experience. You can have the greatest teacher in the world, but never actually "do" anything, and be outdone by someone who had no teacher, but who managed to "do" a lot more in their experiences.

 

The jumping off point doesn't really matter. It's the quality of experiences that you have after that point.

 

So.......

 

 

 

If said brain surgeon can demonstrably show that they can perform-

 

1) better surgery with

2) less risks at a

3) cheaper cost

 

Then hell fucking yes.

 

That's the thing that people seem to forget about "open source"- it ain't just a collection of wiki pages. There are people out there who consistently produce demonstrable results which consistently match, if not exceed, the results from "traditional" sources. There are 16 year olds who learn open source programming who can work with or produce material that exceeds those things made by paid professionals in the same field.

 

It's a matter of results. It's a matter of DOING.

 

Who cares if you learned how to "do" by paying a hundred grand a year so you can go to some ivory tower, or if you learned to "do" by learning for free off the net? What matters is the consistent, demonstrable quality of the "doing".

 

You can pay $500 an hour for an Olympic ski coach, or you can print off a page from the internet about "how to ski". None of it matters, because both people are going to have to get on the slopes and do. And it's the quality of the "doing" that matters.

 

 

a neurosurgeon needs personal training and long years of studying with an experienced (usually older) neurosurgeon, that's why i made the comparison.

 

you can argue all you want, it's better for us to accept this situation as it is.

it's a fact of life, just as birth love and death

[johndoe2012]

If we look at dharmaoverground and Daniel Ingram's book Masterering the Core Teachings of Buddha, it could be a good model for Open Taoist Alchemy.

 

Setup a book / site with all the stages of alchemy, the practises and so on and let people discuss online.

 

That is, if internal alchemy is as safe as vipassana.

 

So I wonder why this hasn't happened yet?

 

A teacher is sometimes important but my experience it is the YOU that is most important.

 

System + YOU = results.

[Sloppy Zhang]

a neurosurgeon needs personal training and long years of studying with an experienced (usually older) neurosurgeon, that's why i made the comparison.

 

None of that conflicts with the open source philosophy

 

In fact, in an open source community you are MORE likely to get in direct contact with an experienced person in your field much more quickly than you'd be in some traditional field of study.

 

you can argue all you want, it's better for us to accept this situation as it is.

it's a fact of life, just as birth love and death

 

If everyone had that kind of thinking, there wouldn't be taoist alchemy in the first place

[宁]

None of that conflicts with the open source philosophy

 

In fact, in an open source community you are MORE likely to get in direct contact with an experienced person in your field much more quickly than you'd be in some traditional field of study.

 

 

 

If everyone had that kind of thinking, there wouldn't be taoist alchemy in the first place

 

for starters, i don't have a clue about what exactly is taoist alchemy, i only heard some rumours about it...