for those self-deluded clowns who claim they are "enlightened" when they are not..

[tulku]

If you have not already attained the nine samadhi concentration states in your meditation practices, see all the beings in the ten directions, travel the universe at will, see from your ears and hear from your nose, and produce all sorts of supernatural transformations..

 

Then YOU ARE NOT ENLIGHTENED!

 

You are enlightened only if you gain siddhi powers!

[C T]

:lol:

 

HERE WE GO ROUND

THE MULBERRY BUSH...

 

...THE MULBERRY BUSH

 

THE MULBERRY BUSH

 

HERE WE GO ROUND

THE MULBERRY BUSH

TIL WE GAIN SIDDHI POWERS??

 

 

 

You trying to become some sort of cult spiritual head or something, Tulku?

Where did you pluck these ideas from i wonder.

 

This sort of wild fantastical claims are surely not in accord with Buddhadharma, so that is one tradition you can discount from your fantasy here.

[xabir2005]

[Sunya]

I am aware some teachers and buddhists make such claims even tho the scriptures disagree.

 

They are not to be blamed because they have taught it based on commentaries or previous teachings by other teachers... however it is not, as far as I know, being taught by Buddha.

 

The statement that enlightened beings need to have psychic powers is a statement not supported by the Scriptures, and commentaries like Visudhimagga (which if I am not wrong has listed a few kinds of Arhants, some have mastery of shamatha and powers while there is one type who is a dry insight practitioner and does not gain psychic powers)

 

That said, it so happens that almost all enlightened persons I personally know have some mastery of psychic powers.

 

It is my understanding that in Theravada the goal is liberation or the cessation of suffering, so psychic powers may be developed through jhana but are not the goal, nor are they seen as necessary for liberation. But in Mahayana, specifically Vajrayana, psychic powers are developed in order to help other beings. If Tulku means 'Buddhahood' by 'enlightened' then he is essentially correct, except what is missing is compassion and experiential knowledge of emptiness.

 

So in Buddhist view, Arhat is liberated but may or may not have siddhis. Buddha is not only liberated but has deep compassion and limitless siddhis.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Sunya

[Sunya]

This sort of wild fantastical claims are surely not in accord with Buddhadharma, so that is one tradition you can discount from your fantasy here.

 

CowTao,

 

It may be fantastical, but I think it's pretty in line with Mahayana/Vajrayana. How come you see it differently?

[C T]

Siddhis are cultivated virtues, much like any other virtuous deeds one accumulates along the path to awakening.

 

Actual Awakening itself is not regarded as a result of accumulations. According to Buddhadharma, the Awakened state is self-perfected. There is no need to perform any merit accumulations to 'attain' enlightenment. According to the Buddhist teachings, Buddha essence is not a separate state, and no amount of merit accumulations will bring one closer to the Essence, for one has never been separated from it from the beginningless beginning. It is due to conditioned and habitual patterns that has heaped layers of delusional fermentations over one's original state, and as a result, beings believe they are wandering in Samsara, when in fact, Samsara itself is an imagination brought forth by the mind constantly wandering (distractions) due to the non-recognition of one's primordial state ~ this is the result of clinging and aversion within the six sense realms.

 

The practice of accumulating merits may or may not lead to Awakening, but the fruits of sufficient accumulative merits will still the mind enough to uncover expansive realities beyond the mundane-fold which non-accumulators abide in. The harvest of siddhis are not indicative of the Enlightening state; however, the Enlightening state will enable the realizations of siddhis effortlessly if one so desires. While some may opt to hone their siddhic skills while training in the stability of recognizing the nature of Mind, there are others who may choose to ignore this aspect of the path.

 

Without first setting one's mind at ease and abiding in Calm, the pursuit of siddhic powers can actually hinder the realization and subsequent stabilization of the innate state of Buddha essence.

Edited September 7, 2011 by CowTao

[tulku]

It is my understanding that in Theravada the goal is liberation or the cessation of suffering, so psychic powers may be developed through jhana but are not the goal, nor are they seen as necessary for liberation. But in Mahayana, specifically Vajrayana, psychic powers are developed in order to help other beings. If Tulku means 'Buddhahood' by 'enlightened' then he is essentially correct, except what is missing is compassion and experiential knowledge of emptiness.

 

So in Buddhist view, Arhat is liberated but may or may not have siddhis. Buddha is not only liberated but has deep compassion and limitless siddhis.

 

One need siddhis and powers in order to break free of the 5 skandhas.

 

The definition of cessation of suffering is to break free of the 5 skandhas including the skandhas of volition/desires.

 

If one does not even have the divine ear or sight, how does one see for himself the cause of karma?

 

If one does not even have the divine ear or sight, how does one see for himself the emptiness of this reality?

 

No one can be enlightened without gaining siddhi powers I say again.

[tulku]

Siddhis are cultivated virtues, much like any other virtuous deeds one accumulates along the path to awakening.

 

Awakening itself is not regarded as a result of accumulations. According to Buddhadharma, Awakening itself is self-perfected. There is no need to perform any merit accumulations to 'attain' enlightenment. According to the Buddhist teachings, Buddha essence is not a separate state, and no amount of merit accumulations will bring one closer to the Essence, for one has never been separated from it from the beginningless beginning. It is due to conditioned and habitual patterns that has heaped layers of delusional fermentations over one's original state, and as a result, beings believe they are wandering in Samsara, when in fact, Samsara itself is an imagination of delusory sense habits.

 

The practice of accumulating merits may or may not lead to Awakening, but the fruits of sufficient accumulative merits will still the mind enough to uncover expansive realities beyond the mundane-fold which non-accumulators abide in. The harvest of siddhis are not indicative of the Enlightening state; however, the Enlightening state will enable the realizations of siddhis effortlessly if one so desires. While some may opt to hone their siddhic skills while training in the stability of recognizing the nature of Mind, there are others who may choose to ignore this aspect of the path.

 

Without first setting one's mind at ease and abiding in Calm, the pursuit of siddhic powers can actually hinder the realization and subsequent stabilization of the innate state of Buddha essence.

 

Siddhis are cultivated virtues, much like any other virtuous deeds one accumulates along the path to awakening.

 

The harvest of siddhis are not indicative of the Enlightening state; however, the Enlightening state will enable the realizations of siddhis effortlessly if one so desires.

 

 

As you said it.

[C T]

 

As you said it.

I dont think you understood what i said.

[xabir2005]

One need siddhis and powers in order to break free of the 5 skandhas.

 

The definition of cessation of suffering is to break free of the 5 skandhas including the skandhas of volition/desires.

 

If one does not even have the divine ear or sight, how does one see for himself the cause of karma?

 

If one does not even have the divine ear or sight, how does one see for himself the emptiness of this reality?

 

No one can be enlightened without gaining siddhi powers I say again.

the scriptures, as I have clearly demonstrated, clearly states that powers are not needed for liberation, and do not result in liberation. It is insight, discernment, through wisdom and awareness that results in liberation.

 

Also, karma is one of the imponderables that only a Buddha can comprehend. Even arhats and bodhisattvas cannot see karma completely. It is not necessary to know all the things about your karma to gain liberation anyway.

 

Also, having divine eye and ear has nothing to do with seeing emptiness. It is the dharma eye, the wisdom eye that perceives emptiness so to speak - it is the insight discernment through awareness of the nature of reality that liberates, not divine eyes or ears. Divine eyes or ears can't help in this, otherwise all the devas and celestial beings would have gained liberation, of which they have not.

[C T]

One need siddhis and powers in order to break free of the 5 skandhas.

 

The definition of cessation of suffering is to break free of the 5 skandhas including the skandhas of volition/desires.

 

If one does not even have the divine ear or sight, how does one see for himself the cause of karma?

 

If one does not even have the divine ear or sight, how does one see for himself the emptiness of this reality?

 

No one can be enlightened without gaining siddhi powers I say again.

This is your definition, not the generally accepted Buddhist definition, Tulku.

 

One can most certainly attain deep understanding of the causes of karma thru scriptural studies of the Suttas. When the causes are seen and abandoned, first conceptually then non-conceptually, until such time when stability arises and becomes pervasive, there is no hope of attaining psychic powers.

 

This reality is not empty. It is simply void of intrinsic permanency.

To say reality is empty is not in accord with the teachings.

 

Everyone's buddha nature is already self-perfected. You cannot do anything to make it more perfect. If you gain siddhi powers that does not mean your buddha essence is greater than Cowtao's, who have no siddhi powers. But if you do gain them, then you have the added responsibility of doing right by them.

Edited September 7, 2011 by CowTao

[tulku]

This is your definition, not the generally accepted Buddhist definition, Tulku.

 

One can most certainly attain deep understanding of the causes of karma thru scriptural studies of the Suttas. When the causes are seen and abandoned, first conceptually then non-conceptually, until such time when stability arises and becomes pervasive, there is no hope of attaining psychic powers.

 

This reality is not empty. It is simply void of intrinsic permanency.

To say reality is empty is not in accord with the teachings.

 

Everyone's buddha nature is already self-perfected. You cannot do anything to make it more perfect. If you gain siddhi powers that does not mean your buddha essence is greater than Cowtao's, who have no siddhi powers. But if you do gain them, then you have the added responsibility of doing right by them.

 

If you have not cultivated the Divine Sight and Ear, that means you have not erased the attachments to the Skandhas of Form which is still covering your Divine SIght and Ear.

 

That means you are not Enlightened yet.

 

Yes we are fundamentally enlightened but most of us are still covered by the impure skandhas of form.

[C T]

If you have not cultivated the Divine Sight and Ear, that means you have not erased the attachments to the Skandhas of Form which is still covering your Divine SIght and Ear.

 

That means you are not Enlightened yet.

 

Yes we are fundamentally enlightened but most of us are still covered by the impure skandhas of form.

One does not need to cultivate the divine Sight and Hearing faculties in order to understand that we are covered by the denser graspings brought in thru the 6 senses.

 

Just like you have clearly demonstrated your understanding here. Does this mean you have developed divinity in those two faculties? If you have, good for you, but i think you have only begun to uncover it, so this goes to show its not necessary to have these divine gifts or powers fully tuned before understanding and putting into practice what the Buddha actually taught can be achieved.

 

I am stressing this in case others who want to take up the Buddhist path get confused by your assertions.

[xabir2005]

If you have not cultivated the Divine Sight and Ear, that means you have not erased the attachments to the Skandhas of Form which is still covering your Divine SIght and Ear.

 

That means you are not Enlightened yet.

 

Yes we are fundamentally enlightened but most of us are still covered by the impure skandhas of form.

Divine sight and ear are mundane faculties belonging to devas. They are developed through shamatha and jhanas. Enlightenment is supramundane and does not necessarily confer the development of mundane qualities.

[Sunya]

CowTao, I'm not talking about awakening to our true nature or liberation. I am referring to Buddahood which according to Mahayana/Vajrayana results from the cultivation of method (siddhi) in order to benefit all beings.

 

 

http://www.fpmt.org/.../paths_sopa.php

 

To obtain buddhahood the obstacles to the goal have to be completely removed. These obstacles are of two main types: obstacles to liberation, which includes the delusions such as attachment, and obstacles to omniscience. When the various delusions have been removed, one becomes an arhat. In Tibetan, arhat (Tibetan: gra-bCom-pa) means one who has destroyed (Tibetan: bCom) the inner enemy (Tibetan: gra), and thus has obtained emancipation from all delusions. However, this is not the attainment of buddhahood. An arhat is free from samsara and all misery and suffering; he no longer is prone to a rebirth conditioned by karma and delusion. At the moment we are strongly under the power of these two forces, being reborn again and again, sometimes higher, sometimes lower. We have little choice or independence in our birth, life, death, and rebirth. Negative karma and delusion combine and overpower us again and again. Our freedom is thus greatly limited. It is a circle: occasionally rebirth in a high realm, then in a low world; sometimes an animal, sometimes a human or a god. This is what is meant by 'samsara.' An arhat has achieved liberation from this circle. He has broken the circle and gone beyond it. His life has become totally pure, totally free. The forces that controlled him have gone, and he dwells in a state of emancipation from compulsive experience. His realization of shunyata is complete.

 

In the method side, the arhat has cultivated a path combining meditation on emptiness with meditation on the impermanence of life, karma and its results, the suffering nature of the whole circle of samsara, and so forth. But arhatship does not have the perfection of buddhahood. Compared to our ordinary samsaric life it is a great attainment, but the arhats still have a certain degree of subtle obstacles. The mental obstacles such as desire, hatred, ignorance and so forth have gone, but because they have been active forces within the mind for so long they leave behind a subtle hindrance, a kind of subtle habit or predisposition. Desire may have gone, but it leaves behind something very subtle in the mind. Or, although an arhat will not have anger, he may continue an old habit such as using harsh words. And he will have a very subtle self-centerdness. Similarly, arhats do not have ignorance or wrong views, but they do not see certain aspects of cause and effect as clearly as does a buddha. These kinds of subtle limitations are called the obstacles to omniscience. In buddhahood they have been completely removed. No obstacles remain. There is both perfect freedom and perfect knowledge.

 

With the ripening of wisdom and method comes the fruit of the wisdom and form bodies of a buddha. The form body has two dimensions, the samboghakaya and nirmanakaya, which with the wisdom body of dharmakaya constitute the three kayas. The form bodies are not ordinary form; they are purely mental, a reflection or manifestation of the dharmakaya wisdom. From perfect wisdom emerges perfect form. Buddhahood is endowed with many qualities: perfect body and mind, omniscient knowledge, power and so forth. From the perfection of the inner qualities is manifested a perfect environment, a 'pure land.' A buddha has a cause. His cause is a bodhisattva. Before attaining buddhahood one must train as a bodhisattva and cultivate a path uniting method with wisdom. The function of wisdom is to eliminate ignorance; the function of method is to produce the physical and environmental perfections of being. The bodhisattva trainings are vast: generosity, with which one tries to help others; patience, which keeps the mind in a state of calm; diligent perseverance, with which in order to help other sentient beings one joyfully undergoes the many hardships without hesitation; and many others.

[xabir2005]

One needs to have right goals.

 

If one aims for enlightenment, then understand what is the path that leads to enlightenment.

 

It is the eightfold path.

 

Notice that "right siddhis" is never a part of it.

 

Buddha never denied siddhis but he never claimed that it is necessary or that it will somehow result in enlightenment.

 

Those pursuing mundane siddhis thinking somehow they will lead to their enlightenment is on a wrong, mistaken path and will never become enlightened. They are still chasing after mundane phenonmena.

 

Even though siddhis are not uncommon, more often than not they become a distraction for seekers and they steer completely away from the path of enlightenment into a path of seeking after more mundane worldly phenomena.

 

That is why it is important to be clear what one practices for.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I agree with Sunya. In the lower vehicles siddhis are not important, but in the higher vehicles, I believe they are necessary to display the degree of one's enlightenment and penetration into the illusion of the physical world, also to aid other beings.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Those pursuing mundane siddhis thinking somehow they will lead to their enlightenment is on a wrong, mistaken path and will never become enlightened. They are still chasing after mundane phenonmena.

 

Even though siddhis are not uncommon, more often than not they become a distraction for seekers and they steer completely away from the path of enlightenment into a path of seeking after more mundane worldly phenomena.

 

That is why it is important to be clear what one practices for.

This is not true. Visualization and bodily energies are utilized for expedient means to enlightenment at the samboghakaya and the dharmakaya levels. The usage of energies is a siddhi and so are meditations on deities and mandalas. Tantric paths also use sexual energies and shamanic practices like chod to purify themselves. They are only considered distractions in some schools who favor their own methods, whether it be vipassana or zazen.

[C T]

Sunya,

 

I am not against the cultivation of siddhis.

 

Tulku said siddhis are necessary for the achievement of enlightenment. Do you think this is an accurate statement?

 

I see siddhis as a by-product of the process of initial trainings in the conceptual path of understanding of what Buddha essence is. During this phase, some will taste expanded mind states, and depending on one's karmic disposition and openness, these mind states can be honed and then used for healing, energetic cultivation, enhancing teachings, etc. Others who do not have the karmic disposition can have glimpses, but they do not remain, and no amount of chasing or training will bring about its development. Most times, people attempt to cling to the glimpses and hanker after these siddhic powers, mistakenly thinking that without them, Enlightenment becomes unreachable, like Tulku here for example. This is the view that i am trying to redress here.

 

So i do not see the development of siddhic powers as a prerequisite to uncovering realization of the nature of Mind. And i do not think its a fundamental requirement on the Vajrayana path either. But depending on which school one affiliates with, some will put more, some less, emphasis on the cultivation of the Paramitas, and almost no emphasis is put on the cultivation of siddhis purely for its own sake, as precursors to Awakening.

[C T]

From the Prajnaparamita:

 

O Subhuti! When one develops the excellent Mind of enlightenment, even the ten virtuous deeds, the four absorptions of the form realm and the four contemplations of the formless realm, the practices of an ordinary person will become the training associated with liberative virtues. So this will become the cause of omniscience.

 

 

As an afterthought, i recall in the Dzogchen teachings that Virtues are of two types: Merit-making and Liberative. The cultivation of siddhis to aid one on the path is classified under Merit-making (also known as Method), which can be exhausted, whereas Liberative virtues (also known as Wisdom) is essentially inexhaustible, and to generate both is usually encouraged by the various schools. However, the cultivation of Liberative virtues take precedence over that of cultivating Merit-making virtues, although this again depends on the level of one's mental abilities.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I am aware some teachers and buddhists make such claims even tho the scriptures disagree.

 

They are not to be blamed because they have taught it based on commentaries or previous teachings by other teachers... however it is not, as far as I know, being taught by Buddha....

I might have mis read that quote because I haven't slept much, but doesn't the Buddha by the end criticize Susima for saying he declares emancipation without attaining any of the powers?

 

 

"So just now, Susima, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

 

Then, throwing himself down with his head at the Blessed One's feet, Ven. Susima said to the Blessed One, "A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, & so unskilled as to go forth as a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline! May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

[tulku]

One needs to have right goals.

 

If one aims for enlightenment, then understand what is the path that leads to enlightenment.

 

It is the eightfold path.

 

Notice that "right siddhis" is never a part of it.

 

Buddha never denied siddhis but he never claimed that it is necessary or that it will somehow result in enlightenment.

 

Those pursuing mundane siddhis thinking somehow they will lead to their enlightenment is on a wrong, mistaken path and will never become enlightened. They are still chasing after mundane phenonmena.

 

Even though siddhis are not uncommon, more often than not they become a distraction for seekers and they steer completely away from the path of enlightenment into a path of seeking after more mundane worldly phenomena.

 

That is why it is important to be clear what one practices for.

 

I say again.

 

You need to develop siddhis to achieve complete enlightenment.

 

There is not one human in the world who has achieved complete enlightenment without developing siddhis.

 

How do you think you are gonna interact with the Oneness/Emptiness without using your Divine Sight and Ear?

 

Stop talking rubbish.

[tulku]

I agree with Sunya. In the lower vehicles siddhis are not important, but in the higher vehicles, I believe they are necessary to display the degree of one's enlightenment and penetration into the illusion of the physical world, also to aid other beings.

 

To penetrate the illusion of the physical world.

 

Well said.

[tulku]

Sunya,

 

I am not against the cultivation of siddhis.

 

Tulku said siddhis are necessary for the achievement of enlightenment. Do you think this is an accurate statement?

 

I see siddhis as a by-product of the process of initial trainings in the conceptual path of understanding of what Buddha essence is. During this phase, some will taste expanded mind states, and depending on one's karmic disposition and openness, these mind states can be honed and then used for healing, energetic cultivation, enhancing teachings, etc. Others who do not have the karmic disposition can have glimpses, but they do not remain, and no amount of chasing or training will bring about its development. Most times, people attempt to cling to the glimpses and hanker after these siddhic powers, mistakenly thinking that without them, Enlightenment becomes unreachable, like Tulku here for example. This is the view that i am trying to redress here.

 

So i do not see the development of siddhic powers as a prerequisite to uncovering realization of the nature of Mind. And i do not think its a fundamental requirement on the Vajrayana path either. But depending on which school one affiliates with, some will put more, some less, emphasis on the cultivation of the Paramitas, and almost no emphasis is put on the cultivation of siddhis purely for its own sake, as precursors to Awakening.

 

Alright Cowtao, let me explain a bit more.

 

To achieve complete enlightenment, one needs to interact with the higher dimensional forces in this reality and outside this reality.

 

There is no way you can interact with these higher dimensional forces without developing Siddhis least of all your Divine Sight and Sound.

 

It will be like asking you to drive a car blindfolded and deaf.

[xabir2005]

I might have mis read that quote because I haven't slept much, but doesn't the Buddha by the end criticize Susima for saying he declares emancipation without attaining any of the powers?

 

 

"So just now, Susima, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

 

Then, throwing himself down with his head at the Blessed One's feet, Ven. Susima said to the Blessed One, "A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, & so unskilled as to go forth as a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline! May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

means he attained insight without powers, proving that powers are not necessary for insight or liberation.

 

The transgression is for his coming to steal buddha's dharma to claim as his own sect's for fame and worship.

 

You should sleep more lol