[TTC Study] Chapter 67 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ion]

Greatness and smallness are relative, and comparable terms. They require an object and a realtive object to have meaning.

 

The earth is huge and great compared to a person, yet it is insignificant compared to the sun.So great and the like are relative terms.

 

All things spring from nonexitence(tao); non-existence is eternally vast, yet compared to anything that has come to exist by its virtue, non-existance(tao) has no existance.

 

Mercy, frugality,(conservation of energy), and a non-competitive helpful disposition are virtues and have no form. Mercy is as great whether it is shown to the week or the stong. The convservation of energy is great wheter one has an abundunce or very little. A non-competitive/helpless disposition makes one the most valuble player whether there is 2 people or 1,000.

 

 

edit-so virtue is always great regaurdless of what it is in relation to.

Edited September 12, 2011 by ion

[Taoist Texts]

道德經67

《道德經》:
天下皆謂我道大，似不肖。
Every (warring state in) Under Heaven proclaims territorial expansion as its strategy (Dao), which seems not clever.
夫唯大，故似不肖。若肖久矣。其細也夫！
It is the expansion, that makes it not clever. For when such cleverness goes on long – it becomes knavery.
我有三寶，持而保之。
My (state), on the other hand have 3 gems (different from those of the other states), to those 3 we will hold fast.
一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。
First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.
慈故能勇；儉故能廣；不敢為天下先，故能成器長。
Mercy to my people will make brave warriors out of them; reservation will allow us to build a reserve of war chariots; not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven will allow my state to complete its projects and to last.
今舍慈且勇；舍儉且廣；舍後且先；死矣！
The others abandon mercy yet want bravery from their army; abandon economy yet want to build chariots; abandon the rear yet want to become the dominant state - are bound to perish.
夫慈以戰則勝，以守則固。天將救之，以慈衛之。
(But my state) will gain victory in war due to mercy, and then will hold firm (to the territory). (After that) the Heaven will protect our gains, and it will stay secure due to the mercy (our ruler shows to his people).

[dust]

I won't say that that meaning isn't there... but I don't know if it's quite as overt as all that...?

[dawei]

道德經67

 

《道德經》:

天下皆謂我道大，似不肖。

Every (warring state in) Under Heaven proclaims territorial expansion as its strategy (Dao), which seems not clever.

 

This is exceedingly clever... and I would say historically supported.

 

There was a decided shift in seeking a new basis for political/rulership authority.

 

What started as Sifeng 四方 to mean four [barbarian] directions from the central plains rule gave way to a re-interpretation as the five phases 五行... and eventually this became a basis for political and military legitimacy.

 

 

My (state), on the other hand have 3 gems (different from those of the other states), to those 3 we will hold fast.

 

Exactly what 'state' ?

 

 

一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。

First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.

 

This makes me think of the evolution that came from the re-interpretions mentioned above... which became: Heaven, Earth, Man.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Heaven, Earth, and Humanity; upper, lower, and middle

 

It might be said that Dao De Jing talks about all three whenever it mentions any one. Dao, politics, and internal government.

 

A lot of parenthesis are needed.

[dawei]

Heaven, Earth, and Humanity; upper, lower, and middle

 

It might be said that Dao De Jing talks about all three whenever it mentions any one. Dao, politics, and internal government.

 

A lot of parenthesis are needed.

 

There is an interesting angle whereby 'governance' is in all three at all times... it trickles down and overlaps, etc.

 

(Dao governs the ten thousand; earth governs the four seasons; man governs himself.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There is an interesting angle whereby 'governance' is in all three at all times... it trickles down and overlaps, etc.

 

(Dao governs the ten thousand; earth governs the four seasons; man governs himself.)

 

And the Dao De Jing explains how it's done and how to do it.

 

great point

I like the idea of Earth governing - the four seasons etc. - What a majestic ruler indeed!

[Taoist Texts]

I won't say that that meaning isn't there... but I don't know if it's quite as overt as all that...?

They say that the literature of those times came from a broiling milieu of social engineers, wizards, strategists, warriors for hire who were traveling from a court to a royal court seeking grants, implementation and a worthy sovereign. The texts like TTC were composed for the prince to read, understand and implement, so they had to be practical, precise and overt. To wit:

 

 

Han Feizi, Wade-Giles romanization Han Fei-tzu (Chinese: “Master Han Fei”) (born c. 280, China—died 233 bce, China), the greatest of China’s Legalist philosophers. His essays on autocratic government so impressed King Zheng of Qin that the future emperor adopted their principles after seizing power in 221 bce.

A member of the ruling family of Han, one of the weaker of the warring states that were in conflict during the 5th–3rd centuries bce, he studied under the Confucian philosopher Xunzi but deserted him to follow another school of thought more germane to the conditions accompanying the collapse of the feudal system in his time. Finding that his advice to the ruler of his native state went unheeded, he put his ideas into writing.

 

If the author would write with a Taoist attitude in mind 'oh this cryptic book of mine means anything you want it to mean Your Highness', he would have been kicked out in a a jiff.

[Taoist Texts]

Exactly what 'state' ?

apparently wiki says Zhou

 

 

According to traditional accounts, Laozi was a scholar who worked as the Keeper of the Archives for the royal court of Zhou.^[23]

 

 

later on it would become any state that would accept his followers (Huang-Lao school) armed with TTC, going from court to court, like Confucious or Mo did.

 

 

 

一曰慈，二曰儉，三曰不敢為天下先。

First is mercy, second reservation, third – not daring to become the dominant state in Under Heaven.

 

This makes me think of the evolution that came from the re-interpretions mentioned above... which became: Heaven, Earth, Man.

 

 

Could be; it seems that 'the 3 gems' in politics was a placeholder formula for the 3 principles that make a country strong with a content that differed accourding to the school:

 

like this:

 

Han Fei's interpretation of Legalism stressed that the autocrat will be able to achieve the ultimate ends of Legalist philosophy of firm control over the state with the mastering of three concepts: his position of power (勢, Shì); certain techniques (術, Shù), and laws (法, Fǎ) as described in his classic work, the Han Feizi (book).

 

or this:

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E4%B8%89%E5%AF%B6

 

夫劍產于越，珠產于江漢，玉產于昆山，此三寶者

 

swords, pearls, jade

 

文王曰：「敢問三寶？」

太公曰：「大農、大工，大商，謂之三寶

 

large agriculture, workforce, trade

[Crow With No Mouth]

It's been a while since the last time I did this, but I came up with my own version again while trying to understand the chapter better. Thought I would post it here in case anyone's interested.

Noticed again how English language cannot adequately get all the nuances and different meanings of Lao Tzu's teachings. Acknowledging that, this is what I came up with:

 

 

The whole world says that my Tao is great, but unlike anything else.

It is great precisely because it is unlike anything else.

If it were like anything else it would have vanished a long time ago.

 

I have three treasures that I hold and cherish.

The first one is unconditional love.

The second one is moderation.

The third one is not placing myself above others.

With love one has power to remove all fears,

moderation enables generosity,

and only those that don’t place themselves above others are fit to lead.

 

Nowadays, many lack love yet aim to be fearless,

lack restraint so they cannot afford generosity,

lack humility so they want to get ahead.

This is a recipe for doom.

 

However, love will triumph in battle and be impregnable in defense.

Heaven sides with those who possess unconditional love and protects them.

[flowing hands]

CHAPTER 67

 

"All under Heaven say that my Dao is beyond compare.

Because it is different, it has lasted a long time.

 

I have three treasures which I keep in my heart.

The first is mercy, the second is economy, and the third is being at one with the Dao.

 

From mercy springs life and strength.

From economy comes generosity.

From the Dao comes the knowledge of all things.

 

Today men shun mercy and take life without care.

They abandon economy and seek to enrich themselves.

They do not know of or follow the Dao, and so they are naive of the ways of all things.

 

Having compassion and strength and knowing the way of all things, Heaven knows how to act."

 

 

 

Now one sees in my transmission that we have certain elements that are consistent with the themes that run through the original work. We have the idea of the 'soft and yielding' of Heaven dealing with all things in a fair and understanding way. A dealing with aggression by using 'mercy' and compassion which will save more lives than aggression. Here we have the basis of many traditional Daoist martial arts.

 

We have one of the greatest treasure being at one with all things; the ultimate goal and expression of Dao. Achieving this goal gives a true understanding of all things. 

[dust]

If the author would write with a Taoist attitude in mind 'oh this cryptic  book of mine means anything you want it to mean Your Highness', he would have been kicked out in a a jiff.

 

It's been a while and I can't be sure, but I think that was my point.

 

 

天下皆謂我道大

Every (warring state in) Under Heaven proclaims territorial expansion as its strategy (Dao)

 

IMO one has to make an incredible leap to get to this interpretation. If this is what was meant, it's not staring anyone in the face.

[Taoist Texts]

IMO one has to make an incredible leap to get to this interpretation. If this is what was meant, it's not staring anyone in the face.

..........

 

This book is not for everyone and his face, nest ces pas?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

 Thought I would post it here in case anyone's interested.

I'm always interested in others' understandings.

 

 

I would question your use of "unconditional love" even though you did work the concept well into the rest of the translation.

[Marblehead]

 

Now one sees in my transmission ...

And I would question the use of "mercy" as well but you did use compassion in the last line as well as include it in your comments.

 

 

Both yours and Crow's are nice.

[Taoist Texts]

And I would question the use of "mercy" as well but you did use compassion in the last line as well as include it in your comments.

 

 

Both yours and Crow's are nice.

to find out just how much nice are those perhaps these learned gentlemen could be asked for an example.

....

 

However, love will triumph in battle and be impregnable in defense.

Heaven sides with those who possess unconditional love and protects them.

 

.....

 

 

huh?

[dust]

This book is not for everyone and his face, nest ces pas?

 

Good answer

[dust]

天下皆谓我大.

大而不宵,

夫唯不宵, 故能大;

若宵, 久矣其细也.

夫我恒有三宝持而保之.

一曰慈;

.........

 

The people all the world will say, " I'm great. "

Great and unlike the other,

Because only unlike the other,So it can be great.

If like the other, Longer It will become tiny .

For 'I' ,There were allways three treasures to Keep it on great.

The first is mercy love;

.........

 

Thought this was worth bringing to the present.

 

Goowday used (an irregular transcription of?) the MWD text?

 

I think it might be useful to look at this and the next chapter of the MWD together. Especially when taking TT's interpretation into account.

Edited March 8, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

to find out just how much nice are those perhaps these learned gentlemen could be asked for an example.

....

 

However, love will triumph in battle and be impregnable in defense.

Heaven sides with those who possess unconditional love and protects them.

 

.....

 

 

huh?

Yes, that is my problem.  Idealistically they are beautiful thoughts.  However, reality shows these thoughts to be mostly untrue.

[flowing hands]

And I would question the use of "mercy" as well but you did use compassion in the last line as well as include it in your comments.

 

 

Both yours and Crow's are nice.

 

Well if Li Erh used 'compassion' it would mean something very much of how we may think today. 600 BCE the sparring of life due to extreme hardship, war etc. was the giving of 'mercy' for life was taken too easily in those days. So to show mercy to your enemy, for instance, as a fellow human was to spare life and to give life a second chance. Showing mercy is a form of mental and inner strength that overcomes the baser instincts of humans. Compassion in such an instant is too softer word to describe this act.

[Marblehead]

Valid points Flowing Hands.

[Taoist Texts]

The crux of misunderstanding of this chpt. apparently hinges on ‘mercy’ 慈 [cí] misunderstood as some kind of xtian or ‘western Buddhist’ unconditional love for all, ‘love thy enemy’ which somehow leads to a dualistic (schizophrenic) victory of love/good over evil/enmity.

 

Agape developed in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for humankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one's fellow man.^[5].

 

It is wrong to understand TTC in this way.

 

In the Chinese reality the mercy is a formulaic behavior of a parent towards his children, hence the standard formula ‘merciful father or mother’. This behavior by extension was attributed to an exemplary king merciful to his subjects, thus assuring the survival of the nation and the dynasty. E g:

 

 

季康子問：「使民敬、忠以勸，如之何？」子曰：「臨之以莊則敬，孝慈則忠，舉善而教不能，則勸。」

Wei Zheng:  

Ji Kang asked how to cause the people to reverence their ruler, to be faithful to him, and to go on to nerve themselves to virtue. The Master said, "Let him preside over them with gravity; then they will reverence him. Let him be filial and kind to all; then they will be faithful to him. Let him advance the good and teach the incompetent; then they will eagerly seek to be virtuous."

 

:     

孟子曰：「規矩，方員之至也；聖人，人倫之至也。欲為君盡君道，欲為臣盡臣道，二者皆法堯舜而已矣。不以舜之所以事堯事君，不敬其君者也；不以堯之所以治民治民，賊其民者也。孔子曰：『道二：仁與不仁而已矣。』暴其民甚，則身弒國亡；不甚，則身危國削。名之曰『幽厲』，雖孝子慈孫，百世不能改也。《詩》云『殷鑒不遠，在夏后之世』，此之謂也。」

Li Lou I:      

Mencius said, 'The compass and square produce perfect circles and squares. By the sages, the human relations are perfectly exhibited. He who as a sovereign would perfectly discharge the duties of a sovereign, and he who as a minister would perfectly discharge the duties of a minister, have only to imitate - the one Yao, and the other Shun. He who does not serve his sovereign as Shun served Yao, does not respect his sovereign; and he who does not rule his people as Yao ruled his, injures his people. Confucius said, "There are but two courses, which can be pursued, that of virtue and its opposite." A ruler who carries the oppression of his people to the highest pitch, will himself be slain, and his kingdom will perish. If one stop short of the highest pitch, his life will notwithstanding be in danger, and his kingdom will be weakened. He will be styled "The Dark," or "The Cruel," and though he may have filial sons and affectionate grandsons, they will not be able in a hundred generations to change the designation. This is what is intended in the words of the Book of Poetry, "The beacon of Yin is not remote, It is in the time of the (last) sovereign of Xia."'

 

祭義:    

先王之所以治天下者五：貴有德，貴貴，貴老，敬長，慈幼。此五者，先王之所以定天下也。貴有德，何為也？為其近於道也。貴貴，為其近於君也。貴老，為其近於親也。敬長，為其近於兄也。慈幼，為其近於子也。

Ji Yi:     

There were five things by means of which the ancient kings secured the good government of the whole kingdom - the honour which they paid to the virtuous; to the noble; and to the old; the reverence which they showed to the aged; and their kindness to the young. It was by these five things that they maintained the stability of the kingdom. Why did they give honour to the virtuous? Because of their approximation to the course of duty. They did so to the noble because of their approximation to the position of the ruler; and to the old because of their approximation to that of parents. They showed reverence to the aged, because of their approximation to the position of elder brothers; and kindness to the young, because of their approximation to the position of sons.

 

子曰：「立愛自親始，教民睦也。立教自長始，教民順也。教以慈睦，而民貴有親；教以敬長，而民貴用命。孝以事親，順以聽命，錯諸天下，無所不行。」

Ji Yi:     

The Master said, 'The laying the foundation of (all) love in the love of parents teaches people concord. The laying the foundation of (all) reverence in the reverence of elders teaches the people obedience. When taught loving harmony, the people set the (proper) value on their parents; when taught to reverence their superiors, the people set the (Proper) value in obeying the orders given to them. Filial piety in the service of parents, and obedience in the discharge of orders can be displayed throughout the kingdom, and they will everywhere take effect.

[flowing hands]

The crux of misunderstanding of this chpt. apparently hinges on ‘mercy’ 慈 [cí] misunderstood as some kind of xtian or ‘western Buddhist’ unconditional love for all, ‘love thy enemy’ which somehow leads to a dualistic (schizophrenic) victory of love/good over evil/enmity.

 

Agape developed in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for humankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one's fellow man.^[5].

 

It is wrong to understand TTC in this way.

 

In the Chinese reality the mercy is a formulaic behavior of a parent towards his children, hence the standard formula ‘merciful father or mother’. This behavior by extension was attributed to an exemplary king merciful to his subjects, thus assuring the survival of the nation and the dynasty. E g:

 

 

季康子問：「使民敬、忠以勸，如之何？」子曰：「臨之以莊則敬，孝慈則忠，舉善而教不能，則勸。」

Wei Zheng:  

Ji Kang asked how to cause the people to reverence their ruler, to be faithful to him, and to go on to nerve themselves to virtue. The Master said, "Let him preside over them with gravity; then they will reverence him. Let him be filial and kind to all; then they will be faithful to him. Let him advance the good and teach the incompetent; then they will eagerly seek to be virtuous."

 

:     

孟子曰：「規矩，方員之至也；聖人，人倫之至也。欲為君盡君道，欲為臣盡臣道，二者皆法堯舜而已矣。不以舜之所以事堯事君，不敬其君者也；不以堯之所以治民治民，賊其民者也。孔子曰：『道二：仁與不仁而已矣。』暴其民甚，則身弒國亡；不甚，則身危國削。名之曰『幽厲』，雖孝子慈孫，百世不能改也。《詩》云『殷鑒不遠，在夏后之世』，此之謂也。」

Li Lou I:      

Mencius said, 'The compass and square produce perfect circles and squares. By the sages, the human relations are perfectly exhibited. He who as a sovereign would perfectly discharge the duties of a sovereign, and he who as a minister would perfectly discharge the duties of a minister, have only to imitate - the one Yao, and the other Shun. He who does not serve his sovereign as Shun served Yao, does not respect his sovereign; and he who does not rule his people as Yao ruled his, injures his people. Confucius said, "There are but two courses, which can be pursued, that of virtue and its opposite." A ruler who carries the oppression of his people to the highest pitch, will himself be slain, and his kingdom will perish. If one stop short of the highest pitch, his life will notwithstanding be in danger, and his kingdom will be weakened. He will be styled "The Dark," or "The Cruel," and though he may have filial sons and affectionate grandsons, they will not be able in a hundred generations to change the designation. This is what is intended in the words of the Book of Poetry, "The beacon of Yin is not remote, It is in the time of the (last) sovereign of Xia."'

 

祭義:    

先王之所以治天下者五：貴有德，貴貴，貴老，敬長，慈幼。此五者，先王之所以定天下也。貴有德，何為也？為其近於道也。貴貴，為其近於君也。貴老，為其近於親也。敬長，為其近於兄也。慈幼，為其近於子也。

Ji Yi:     

There were five things by means of which the ancient kings secured the good government of the whole kingdom - the honour which they paid to the virtuous; to the noble; and to the old; the reverence which they showed to the aged; and their kindness to the young. It was by these five things that they maintained the stability of the kingdom. Why did they give honour to the virtuous? Because of their approximation to the course of duty. They did so to the noble because of their approximation to the position of the ruler; and to the old because of their approximation to that of parents. They showed reverence to the aged, because of their approximation to the position of elder brothers; and kindness to the young, because of their approximation to the position of sons.

 

子曰：「立愛自親始，教民睦也。立教自長始，教民順也。教以慈睦，而民貴有親；教以敬長，而民貴用命。孝以事親，順以聽命，錯諸天下，無所不行。」

Ji Yi:     

The Master said, 'The laying the foundation of (all) love in the love of parents teaches people concord. The laying the foundation of (all) reverence in the reverence of elders teaches the people obedience. When taught loving harmony, the people set the (proper) value on their parents; when taught to reverence their superiors, the people set the (Proper) value in obeying the orders given to them. Filial piety in the service of parents, and obedience in the discharge of orders can be displayed throughout the kingdom, and they will everywhere take effect.

 

One must remember that Confucian 'virtues' and values are not 'Daoist'.

[Marblehead]

One must remember that Confucian 'virtues' and values are not 'Daoist'.

And this needs be said over and over again.

[Crow With No Mouth]

I'm always interested in others' understandings.

 

 

I would question your use of "unconditional love" even though you did work the concept well into the rest of the translation.

 

According to verbatim translation by Jonathan Star English equivalents to word tz'u are love / deep love / great love / motherly love / affection / compassion / unconditional love / mercy / "tolerance" / "love that protects and nurtures".

 

Out of those I chose unconditional love because in my view it also encompasses things like mercy and compassion. It also made most sense to me personally. And considering that I believe Lao Tzu wrote from non-dual perspective, I also believe that he probably felt this unconditional love and also was most likely talking about that feeling. I might be wrong though and he certainly played around with having multiple meanings a lot too.

 

Yes, that is my problem.  Idealistically they are beautiful thoughts.  However, reality shows these thoughts to be mostly untrue.

 

I have a problem quoting properly I wanted to quote Taoist Texts post that was quoted in your post too.

 

I agree with what your saying. In some special cases, judging from what some people, who claim to have attained 'oneness', non-duality or what ever phrase they use, say there might be something to this, but in most cases this definitely isn't the case. Then again very few people feel unconditional love. Personally I would have felt most comfortable leaving the last two sentences out completely, since I don't fully agree with what's being said, but in the end I wanted to include and try to get an understanding of them anyway.

 

After reading Flowing Hands translation, I realized that he did a better job on these lines than I did. Bravo, the best translation of these last lines I've read. Thanks for that.