[TTC Study] Chapter 67 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

It was not established for the purpose of determining whether a certain Chinese character should be considered as a noun or a verb but more at what significance the chapters have in our life.

Maybe your right... I misunderstood the concept of "studying" the DDJ... I honestly did not realize it was a new-age'ish feel-good about it's application to our life, regardless of it's intended meaning. I thought we were studying the textual meaning.

 

My bad. I'll leave you guys to share it's significance in your life.

[Jeff]

Dawei,

 

Your insight is very valuable. These threads are valuable to me to first determine the correct English translation, so that I can then try to understand the words, and with that possibly apply it to my life.

 

I appreciate your and Chidragon's efforts for the rest of us.

 

Thanks.

[Marblehead]

When you take it as hostile then I know I am somewhat right...

 

That is stupid.

[dawei]

That is stupid.

Where is your 'hehehehehe' now? Now all we get is this?

 

I have no hostility at all, but your welcome to your opinion and feeling. I provided many reasons for my thought. You choose not to comment on them... instead, you provided one 'provocative' sentence... kind like a troll would... in another thread, that was grounds for suspension

 

Took you just 67 chapters, right?

[Marblehead]

Where is there any emotionalism in my writing or excessive exclamations? I stated my justification as the oldest manuscripts have those lines... That is FACT. Where are your facts?

 

Your opinion is that the ending does not speak to the Three Treasures... chapters generally have three parts:

1. Opening

2. Remarks

3. Closing

 

You think if the closing does not make sense then it is an add-on?

 

Your welcome to that opinion, of course... I worry that you don't see the danger in it seeing your repeated confession of not knowing chinese and inability to research the original writings.

 

Before you accuse someone of jumping, see how high your jumping your own opinions which have no textual support. If you have textual support, then offer it; this is a "study"... or so I thought.

 

And your not really reading carefully enough... I said the "STUDY" has reached a new low... operative word is (or was) "study".... it has turned into a game of opinions and self-promoting translations; people claiming they are translating directly to english but whom have some of the most awkward grammar seen on this site... that is our "study" at this stage. Compare the opening chapters discussion to now...

 

Do you see now as "lower or higher"? My opinion is that it is much lower. JMO.

 

Your attempt to belittle my opinion was uncalled for.

 

Regardless of "your" study of the TTC, I have my own study of the philosophy within.

 

Facts? I wasn't stating any facts. I was stating an opinion. I am authorized to have them.

 

I hold to the understanding that just because something is written down on paper it may not be a truth or it may not be relavant to a discussion or a concept.

 

I stated that I think that the first two lines and the last four lines really have nothing to do with the concept being presented, that is, the three treasures.

 

When did it become a requirement to have facts to back up an opinion? But still, I did state why I had that opinion.

 

My repeated confusion? What ever gave you that impression? My confusion is that I have an opinion? My confusion is that I see no value in the first four lines or the last four lines of this chapter? And where the hell did you gain all this insight to suggeest that I am confused? Might it not be that you are confused?

 

Yes, you jumped on my case for having an opinion. I was merely jumping back because I feel you have no reight to judge my opinion.

 

The "study has reached a new low" was directed at my opinion. You thereby accused me of bringing this study to a new low. The fact is, I am the one who has kept it alive as it likely would have died a long time ago.

 

So when you accused me, in a very sneaky kind of way, of bringing this study to a new low you presented yourself for a counter-attack.

 

Well, your value judgements of 'lower' and higher' have little meaning to me. And yes, some of the members are presenting their own personal translations for consideration. I see no problem with that.

 

All 81 Chapters will be presented. It is up to the membership if they wish to discuss the chapters and how they will get involved.

 

Aaron, the moderator of this sub-forum has set very few restrictions as to what can be discussed as long as it has something to do with the individual chapter.

 

Okay, so what is being discussed is not to your liking. That's too bad. Start your own threads and lead them in the direction you think a discussion of the TTC Chapters should follow. No problem. I might even comment in them.

 

So forget your 'higher' and 'lower' here in this sub-forum. If you don't have anything to say to enliven the discussions I think it would be better if you didn't try to speak negatively to and of those who are trying, in their own way, to be a part of the discussions.

[Marblehead]

Where is your 'hehehehehe' now? Now all we get is this?

 

I have no hostility at all, but your welcome to your opinion and feeling. I provided many reasons for my thought. You choose not to comment on them... instead, you provided one 'provocative' sentence... kind like a troll would... in another thread, that was grounds for suspension

 

Took you just 67 chapters, right?

There was no "Hehehe" because I was serious.

 

You provided negativity and that upset me.

 

Well, I just made a very lengthy comment to your words. And I previously responded to your comments.

 

It is you who started the trolling just because you didn't like what I said.

 

Why are you being so childish suggesting that I could be suspended for having an opinion.

 

My first response to your negative post consisted of eight parapraphs. Where did you see "one provocative sentence"?

Edited September 10, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Took you just 67 chapters, right?

 

What the fuck is that supposed to represent?

 

I don't read minds. Say what you mean if you want someone to understand.

[dawei]

'stupid' and 'fuck'. But that is not provocation, right, hehehe, yes? (was that too many hehe's ?).

 

It is hard to respond to such eloquence but you apparently have a lot to get off your chest. No problem with that. Rant on.

 

My first response to your negative post consisted of eight parapraphs. Where did you see "one provocative sentence"?

 

See below... Is that one sentence or not? I may be bad at counting long posts but a singular sentence I can usually count.

 

That is stupid.

 

I have tried to stick to textual support for my opinions. If you want to offer opinions which have no textual support then that is fine. Maybe you feel this is belittling since you have no support from the text and are now defensive and want to curse and rant.

 

I won't really converse with people in long winded rants and cursing. Everyone seems to be getting way too serious lately. Seems it is adding up as to who needs to chill out. But curse on if you need. Let it out and get over with it if you need.

[ChiDragon]

1. I have three treasures.

3. I'll hold on to and well keep it.

3. The first is mercy.

4. The second is cultivation.

5. The third is not dare to dwell before the people.

 

8. If one is not dare to dwell before the people, then one is able to lead all things.

 

12. One who disregard to stay behind instead striving to lead in the front,

12. Therefore, one is going toward demise indeed!

 

13. If one uses mercy in a war, then one will win.

14. If one uses defensive strategy, then one will be stable.

 

15. Whoever Heaven is willing to help,

16. It will protect them with mercy.

 

Cultivating to the principles in Chapter 67, is to have mercy dealing with others in a humble manner. Lines 8 and 12 thru 14 are good examples of that to avoid any conflict. Lines 15 and 16 are suggesting that one with mercy will have mercy in return from others spontaneously. Otherwise, everything will be returned in adversity.

[Marblehead]

'stupid' and 'fuck'. But that is not provocation, right, hehehe, yes? (was that too many hehe's ?).

 

Yes, what you said was stupid. I put it in a special post so that you would see it. I responded to the rest of that post of yours in a separate response. No, I was not being provocative. I was stating a fact as I understood it.

 

"Fuck" is a word I use to help in expressing how I feel about something. I have never been called to task for the way I use it as I have never used it in any attack of any other member. In fact, I have never attacked another member. Yes, I have, on numerous occasions attacked something a member has said. You are now included in that group of people.

 

It is hard to respond to such eloquence but you apparently have a lot to get off your chest. No problem with that. Rant on.

 

It is sad that you respond to only those things I have said that you want to respond to in order to make your side of the discussion seem of more value. Well, you won't get away with that with me. I know the trick you are trying to play.

 

Yes, I have my dissapointment of your post that started this to get off my chest. and if you keep priming the well I am going to continue producing the muddy water.

 

See below... Is that one sentence or not? I may be bad at counting long posts but a singular sentence I can usually count.

 

Yes. "That is stupid." was one sentence. Nothing else needed to be said about what you said that I was responding to. But you are not ready to let it go yet so I will continue responding to your responses.

 

I have tried to stick to textual support for my opinions. If you want to offer opinions which have no textual support then that is fine. Maybe you feel this is belittling since you have no support from the text and are now defensive and want to curse and rant.

 

I really don't care if John Wu's translation or Robert Henricks translation is the most grammatically correct translation of the Chinese characters. That really doesn't matter to me. It is the value of the words and concepts that are of importance to me.

 

This can be seen in every one of my posts.

 

What do you mean I have no support? I read the words, in English, and try to understand the concepts contained within. My understanding is all the support I need. I don't need you or anyone else telling me that a particular word should have been translated as 'there' instead of 'their'.

 

I think you are wasting your time worrying whether or not a particular translator misplaced a comma. What possible value could that ever have in my ability to use the concepts contained in the TTC for a guide in my living my life.

 

You are apparently interested in a different area of thought than I am. That's fine. But just because I wanted to say something based in my area of thought doesn't and shouldn't mean that the discussion has sunk to a low level.

 

I won't really converse with people in long winded rants and cursing. Everyone seems to be getting way too serious lately. Seems it is adding up as to who needs to chill out. But curse on if you need. Let it out and get over with it if you need.

 

Yes Mom. I will follow your very wise advise.

 

You gotta' be shittin' me!!!

 

You piss someone off and then say you are surprised that they got upset.

 

Yes, feelings have been hurt recently because people have said things without considering what effect they would have on others.

 

Everything I have said in this discussion with you has been considered before I made it a permanent part of any of my posts.

 

So you let it out and get over it. We disagreed and we were not even speaking from the same perspective.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Lines 8 and 12 thru 14 are good examples of that to avoid any conflict.

 

Well, I am not one who is known for avoiding conflict. Hehehe.

 

(Can't forget my "Hehehe." to indicate that I was joking.)

 

But actually serious too. The Gadsden Flag has printed on it "Don't tread on me". I hold that as a valid concept.

[Marblehead]

1. I have three treasures.

3. I'll hold on to and well keep it.

3. The first is mercy.

4. The second is cultivation.

5. The third is not dare to dwell before the people.

 

8. If one is not dare to dwell before the people, then one is able to lead all things.

 

12. One who disregard to stay behind instead striving to lead in the front,

12. Therefore, one is going toward demise indeed!

 

13. If one uses mercy in a war, then one will win.

14. If one uses defensive strategy, then one will be stable.

 

15. Whoever Heaven is willing to help,

16. It will protect them with mercy.

 

Cultivating to the principles in Chapter 67, is to have mercy dealing with others in a humble manner. Lines 8 and 12 thru 14 are good examples of that to avoid any conflict. Lines 15 and 16 are suggesting that one with mercy will have mercy in return from others spontaneously. Otherwise, everything will be returned in adversity.

 

Okay. I have cooled down so I can speak to the entire post.

 

Lines 1 & 2:

 

1. I have three treasures,

2. I will hold to them and keep them well.

 

Hehehe. I'm not going to speak to lines 13 thru 16 again.

 

Well, okay. Sure, I can see the link between the three treasures and one using mercy in war. But I still suggest that this is the beginning of presenting a concept that has nothing to do with teaching of the concept of the three treasures. Also, it switches from the Sage (ruler, warlord) having mercy to Heaven having mercy on those who practice mercy.

 

Now, I have never said that the first rour lines and the last four lines should not be in the chapter. They are there. That's a fact. I just don't see any reason for them to be there because, in my opinion they add nothing to understanding the concept of the three treasures.

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead...

I respect your point of view. You had declared that you do not read Classic Chinese. For knowing that, I always had been considered that in our dialogs. I think you are doing exceptional well in understanding the concepts of the Tao Te Ching. Of course, sometimes we do have our own opinions. Since they are opinions, therefore, they can be accepted or dismissed.

 

In regarding to the lines that they are there for being a fact because they were there at the beginning. IMO All the different versions were codex. The contents of the Tao Te Ching were copied almost verbatim. Since recently there are unearthed copies, they are good references for the modern scholars to compare notes with.

 

The knowledgeable scholars had made a lengthy study of the Tao Te Ching. The thoughts were considered and linked from chapter to chapter. During the study process, scholars had found lots of errors and sometimes with duplicated lines, which were irrelevant, from one chapter to another. Therefore, from a scholastic view, to reach a higher educational and intellectual level in study the Tao Te Ching, they had come up with a Received Version by combining all the commentaries from the past and present scholars and with logical interpretations. In addition, they also went through some inductive and deductive reasoning process to eliminate the illogical thoughts in each chapter.

 

Some of the characters were changed which they did not make sense before. Ever since we have the unearthed copies, they had found the reasons why some of the characters were changed. One of the reasons was because of the names of the rulers were hot allowed to be used in any document. Sometimes, phonetics were used causing the original meaning of the phrase to be twisted.

 

The reason that I am using the Received Version for my translation was to eliminate any or less doubt in my mind. Also, I don't have to deal with the errors in each individual copy(version). Hence, I could have my translations and interpretations to come as close as I could because I know I was backed up by many scholars from the past and present.

[Marblehead]

The reason that I am using the Received Version for my translation was to eliminate any or less doubt in my mind.

 

Hehehe. See? We both are doing the same thing except we are doing it at different levels.

[dawei]

So you let it out and get over it.

I am sure you realize that not everyone turns into a hothead and 'needs to let it out'. I was accused of being hostile when I felt none at all. And I was cursed at which was your need to do so. That's your freedom here. I really have nothing to let out and get over. I really don't have an issue to state. If you were hurt, sorry. Hope you feel better.

[ChiDragon]

There was this old saying:

 

言者無心

聽者有意

The speaker said things inadvertently;

But the listener took their meanings seriously.

 

 

MMHO We just have to be careful how we say things and to whom. Peace.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. See? We both are doing the same thing except we are doing it at different levels.

 

Yes, we do have something in common to be communicated with. Hehehehe.

[Marblehead]

Yes, we do have something in common to be communicated with. Hehehehe.

 

Yea!!!!!

[GOOWDAY]

天下皆谓我大.

大而不宵,

夫唯不宵, 故能大;

若宵, 久矣其细也.

夫我恒有三宝持而保之.

一曰慈;

.........

 

 

 

 

The people all the world will say, " I'm great. "

Great and unlike the other,

Because only unlike the other,So it can be great.

If like the other, Longer It will become tiny .

For 'I' ,There were allways three treasures to Keep it on great.

The first is mercy love;

.........

[dawei]

天下皆谓我大.

大而不宵,

夫唯不宵, 故能大;

若宵, 久矣其细也.

夫我恒有三宝持而保之.

一曰慈;

.........

 

The people all the world will say, " I'm great. "

Great and unlike the other,

Because only unlike the other,So it can be great.

If like the other, Longer It will become tiny .

For 'I' ,There were allways three treasures to Keep it on great.

The first is mercy love;

.........

You deserve points for using the oldest text. Thanks for sharing.

[ChiDragon]

天下皆谓我大.

大而不宵,

夫唯不宵, 故能大;

若宵, 久矣其细也.

夫我恒有三宝持而保之.

一曰慈;

.........

 

 

 

 

The people all the world will say, " I'm great. "

Great and unlike the other,

Because only unlike the other,So it can be great.

If like the other, Longer It will become tiny .

For 'I' ,There were allways three treasures to Keep it on great.

The first is mercy love;

.........

A. 天下皆谓我大.

The people all in the world will say, " I'm great. "

 

B. 天下皆謂我道大

All the people in the world told me that "Tao is great."

 

Questions:

1. Is the Tao Te Ching about "Tao" or oneself...???

2. Was LaoTze's philosophy all about "self ego" or selfless...???

Edited January 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Questions:

1. Is the Tao Te Ching about "Tao" or oneself...???

2. Was LaoTze's philosophy all about "self ego" or selfless...???

 

Yep. I had that question too. A long time ago I opted for "my Tao is Great". But not meaning "my Tao" as a possession but rather "the Tao I speak of".

[Jeff]

A. 天下皆谓我大.

The people all the world will say, " I'm great. "

 

B. 天下皆謂我道大

All the people in the world told me that "Tao is great."

 

Questions:

1. Is the Tao Te Ching about "Tao" or oneself...???

2. Was LaoTze's philosophy all about "self ego" or selfless...???

 

At oneness, they are the same thing. There is no separation.

 

 

The difference is in the perspective of the reader (or translator/author). For a true master/sage does not even exist as a separate entity. There is just Tao. All the rest is just Tao playing with itself.

 

[GOOWDAY]

To CiDragon:

 

No much people knew about laozi and TTC when he work on the TTC at that time,Though he is so famous now.

 

Happy moon Festival.

[ChiDragon]

To CiDragon:

 

No much people knew about laozi and TTC when he work on the TTC at that time,Though he is so famous now.

 

Happy moon Festival.

 

GOOWDAY...

 

Thank you. Same to you.