[TTC Study] Chapter 67 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Hi Crow,

 

No need to quote you here.  You did a very good job supporting your understanding regarding the use of "unconditional love".

 

And yes, I too enjoy what Flowing Hands offers us.

[flowing hands]

According to verbatim translation by Jonathan Star English equivalents to word tz'u are love / deep love / great love / motherly love / affection / compassion / unconditional love / mercy / "tolerance" / "love that protects and nurtures".

 

Out of those I chose unconditional love because in my view it also encompasses things like mercy and compassion. It also made most sense to me personally. And considering that I believe Lao Tzu wrote from non-dual perspective, I also believe that he probably felt this unconditional love and also was most likely talking about that feeling. I might be wrong though and he certainly played around with having multiple meanings a lot too.

 

 

I have a problem quoting properly I wanted to quote Taoist Texts post that was quoted in your post too.

 

I agree with what your saying. In some special cases, judging from what some people, who claim to have attained 'oneness', non-duality or what ever phrase they use, say there might be something to this, but in most cases this definitely isn't the case. Then again very few people feel unconditional love. Personally I would have felt most comfortable leaving the last two sentences out completely, since I don't fully agree with what's being said, but in the end I wanted to include and try to get an understanding of them anyway.

 

After reading Flowing Hands translation, I realized that he did a better job on these lines than I did. Bravo, the best translation of these last lines I've read. Thanks for that.

 

I'm glad that you like it, remember though it is not a translation and back in the mid 80's when I was taught it by Li Erh, I really didn't understand the DDJ very well, so it was new to me! Some would say I don't understand now!

[flowing hands]

Hi Crow,

 

No need to quote you here.  You did a very good job supporting your understanding regarding the use of "unconditional love".

 

And yes, I too enjoy what Flowing Hands offers us.

 

I try my best to give you something to think about!

[Emera]

I think this is one of the most interesting chapters in the daodejing.

[Marblehead]

Yep.  The Three Treasures.

 

And a person in command of these traits would indeed appear to be Great.

 

[Mig]

On 11/17/2017 at 1:42 PM, Marblehead said:

Yep.  The Three Treasures.

 

And a person in command of these traits would indeed appear to be Great.

 

And what are those 3 treasures from your interpretation for someone aiming to be great?

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Mig said:

And what are those 3 treasures from your interpretation for someone aiming to be great?

Compassion

Conservativism

Humility

 

These three words (traits) fit best for me.  Others may use different words to express the Three Treasures.

 

 

[Mig]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Compassion

Conservativism

Humility

 

These three words (traits) fit best for me.  Others may use different words to express the Three Treasures.

 

 

Precisely, why I asked the question about the 3 treasures, especially the 3rd one that is interpreted as humility. The received DDJ doesn't have the word "humility" but not daring to come in the world to the front. Wouldn't "humility" a term with heavy western religious connotations?

[Marblehead]

12 minutes ago, Mig said:

Precisely, why I asked the question about the 3 treasures, especially the 3rd one that is interpreted as humility. The received DDJ doesn't have the word "humility" but not daring to come in the world to the front. Wouldn't "humility" a term with heavy western religious connotations?

That is an excellent question.  Personally, I do not view humility as being passive.  In my opinion, having humility is to control one's ego so that we do not present ourself as being greater than what we really are.  Humility doesn't mean we have to kiss anyone's ass.  But then, it also prevents us from wanting others to kiss our ass.

 

So yes, we stay behind, not daring to come to the front of the world.  But if called forward we would go.

[dawei]

5 hours ago, Mig said:

Precisely, why I asked the question about the 3 treasures, especially the 3rd one that is interpreted as humility. The received DDJ doesn't have the word "humility" but not daring to come in the world to the front. Wouldn't "humility" a term with heavy western religious connotations?

 

maybe 'reserved' ... but if I think of chinese culture, without having looked at the chinese yet, it feels to fit. 

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

maybe 'reserved' ... but if I think of chinese culture, without having looked at the chinese yet, it feels to fit. 

Yeah, but isn't reserved is within the trait of Conservativism?

[Mig]

On 2/14/2018 at 5:19 AM, Marblehead said:

Yeah, but isn't reserved is within the trait of Conservativism?

 

I guess if the original text doesn't have one particular word or compound word to say humility, I guess that's all we can say as the original " not daring to come to the front of the world " and not use humility in most of western languages.

[dawei]

On 2/14/2018 at 8:19 AM, Marblehead said:

Yeah, but isn't reserved is within the trait of Conservativism?

 

good question from a western point of view...  chinese are reserved by nature... some of it is social constructs and some of it is political necessity...    Once you live among them, or just visit enough.... you can feel the reservation effect.  

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, Mig said:

 

I guess if the original text doesn't have one particular word or compound word to say humility, I guess that's all we can say as the original " not daring to come to the front of the world " and not use humility in most of western languages.

Oh, but I will continue to use humility.  I'm at peace with it.

 

[Mig]

16 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Oh, but I will continue to use humility.  I'm at peace with it.

 

I am not sure if reserved by nature is natural. I guess the intelligentsia of Mandarins didn't help for people to be reserved. As for humility, I find odd the received version couldn't come up with one word for the third treasure. Of course, if humility works for you then great, I was just wondering about the third treasure in the way it was interpreted by scholars or practitioners and how it is interpreted both in Chinese culture and outside of the Chinese culture.

[Marblehead]

I have seen one translation, by a Chinese named person, can't recall their name, who did use humility as the third treasure.

 

The reason I find humility a better choice is, after asking myself, "Who really wants to be foremost in the world?"  My answer was either no one or every one.  It just doesn't sound like good guidance to me, especially if we are going to hold it in upmost regard.

 

But humility?  Yes, we can suggest to anyone and every one to keep humility as a guide for our self thought as well as our thoughts and interactions with others.