True Love can only exist without Lust (For Enlightenment)

[Everything]

The Gods and Guardians of the Higher Dimensions judge us every moment with a critical eye.

 

They know our every thoughts.

 

For one to walk the fastest path to enlightenment, one must not give the Gods and Guardians of the Higher Dimensions even the slightest chance to fault you.

 

No God can fault you for giving Love and Happiness.

 

But they will strike you down for even the slightest thought of Lust and Greed.

 

Speaking from personal experience.

Don't worry about what you do in this life. All will be fine as long as you choose the light and choose to believe in the light even in the midst of unbelieve, darkness and fear. If you die without having chosen the light, you will simply be reborn on this planet. You dwell within these eternal fires that is our universe. Recycled over and over again. There is only a movement upwards in this life of our. The falls that we make are lessons we can apply to our next movement towards to stars. You have to be full of faith like this. Never turn our back on the light and let pain hurt, but don't let it get to you. Who are you? Your faith. Without it you will be recycled and given another chance on this rollercoaster.

 

Love is not giving of happiness. Love is a mutual sharing of happiness.

[realfastcat]

For me True Love is the love I have for a friend, child, old person, anyone.

I actually call it Universal Love.

That One True One and Only Love is (for me) a very Abstract Concept that I

have never experienced or probably ever will. I have no understanding of a Soul Mate.

I do understand Lust. IMO Lust is natures way to get our attention.

Maybe Lust is Heaven sent!

 

[ion]

Love & lust are both attacmtments. To experience love for a person is attatchment. To have selfless love for ALL people without attachment is to experience compassion for humanity.

[Jeff]

Love & lust are both attacmtments. To experience love for a person is attatchment. To have selfless love for ALL people without attachment is to experience compassion for humanity.

 

Can not one learn from experience, selfless love for a person, and then grow to selfless love for All people?

 

Selfless love is the key.

 

[tulku]

Don't worry about what you do in this life. All will be fine as long as you choose the light and choose to believe in the light even in the midst of unbelieve, darkness and fear. If you die without having chosen the light, you will simply be reborn on this planet. You dwell within these eternal fires that is our universe. Recycled over and over again. There is only a movement upwards in this life of our. The falls that we make are lessons we can apply to our next movement towards to stars. You have to be full of faith like this. Never turn our back on the light and let pain hurt, but don't let it get to you. Who are you? Your faith. Without it you will be recycled and given another chance on this rollercoaster.

 

Love is not giving of happiness. Love is a mutual sharing of happiness.

 

We are all spiritual being having a material existence.

 

If there is any lesson which needs to be learnt, it is that enlightenment and immortality are prizes which should be cherished above any other facet of life including but not limited to sex, wealth, good food, fun, etc

[tulku]

Can not one learn from experience, selfless love for a person, and then grow to selfless love for All people?

 

Selfless love is the key.

 

 

How important is love to Enlightenment and Immortality?

 

Answer is .. it is important but hardly as important as you think.

[Aaron]

How important is love to Enlightenment and Immortality?

 

Answer is .. it is important but hardly as important as you think.

 

I used to think one must understand love and compassion before they can achieve enlightenment, but after achieving enlightenment, I understood that one comes to an understanding of compassion as a result of enlightenment. Compassion, or at least our understanding of it prior to enlightenment is restricted by the mundane, as you like to call it. So one should not strive to know compassion, but rather practice and in practicing their knowledge of compassion will arise on it's own.

 

Aaron

[ion]

Can not one learn from experience, selfless love for a person, and then grow to selfless love for All people?

 

Selfless love is the key.

 

 

 

Not exactly. The buddha described a mans love for his family as a "thraller of hearts" a thraller is a prison keeper. This is the darkness of enlightenment.

 

Is it better to be attached to love or hate? They are the same attatchment, which ever one leads you to wanting niether and walking with Tao is the better for you, likey niether one will let go of you though.

 

Love for your children is attatchment to a cultural role. Thinking you are a bachelor with no children is a cultural role. There are matriarchal cultures where the sperm doner father has no emphesisis placed on his relation from the offspring of his love affair with their mother.

 

The truth is all children ar your responsibility and none of them are your obligation.

 

Even in partnerships of dual cultivation, they are attached to their partnership...Iron sharpens iron, but it is attatchment that holds them togeather and in reality, each is only cultivating themselves and each is working for their own enlightenment. And if they were to achieve it, they would have to do so on their own.

 

The more your eyes open and the closer you get to yourselfless self with Tao, the less and less personaly involved you will get to any one individual. The less and less personal interest you will show to any one or two people. The less and less possable it will be for you to get caught up in the highs lows concerns and feelings of a relationship you will want.

 

Your mind and perceptiona and inclinations will have become so different that you will be unable perform any typical cultural roles, fuunctions or rituals. The closer you get to Tao, the more and more delusional others will seem and all the more important it will feel to spread the truth so you can speak to others...You will try to wake them from there dellusionment.

 

Once your love of humanity has brought you to the point that you realise that you CAN NOT wake another from their delusionment you will be saddened and your love for humanity will turnm to utter compassion for the delusional...You will not fall in love with one of them even if it simply because of the thick of dillusion the whole world you will realize that your love for individuals was egotistical fascination and was dependent and conditional.

 

Love is attatchment...

[Jeff]

Not exactly. The buddha described a mans love for his family as a "thraller of hearts" a thraller is a prison keeper. This is the darkness of enlightenment.

 

Is it better to be attached to love or hate? They are the same attatchment, which ever one leads you to wanting niether and walking with Tao is the better for you, likey niether one will let go of you though.

 

Love for your children is attatchment to a cultural role. Thinking you are a bachelor with no children is a cultural role. There are matriarchal cultures where the sperm doner father has no emphesisis placed on his relation from the offspring of his love affair with their mother.

 

The truth is all children ar your responsibility and none of them are your obligation.

 

Even in partnerships of dual cultivation, they are attached to their partnership...Iron sharpens iron, but it is attatchment that holds them togeather and in reality, each is only cultivating themselves and each is working for their own enlightenment. And if they were to achieve it, they would have to do so on their own.

 

The more your eyes open and the closer you get to yourselfless self with Tao, the less and less personaly involved you will get to any one individual. The less and less personal interest you will show to any one or two people. The less and less possable it will be for you to get caught up in the highs lows concerns and feelings of a relationship you will want.

 

Your mind and perceptiona and inclinations will have become so different that you will be unable perform any typical cultural roles, fuunctions or rituals. The closer you get to Tao, the more and more delusional others will seem and all the more important it will feel to spread the truth so you can speak to others...You will try to wake them from there dellusionment.

 

Once your love of humanity has brought you to the point that you realise that you CAN NOT wake another from their delusionment you will be saddened and your love for humanity will turnm to utter compassion for the delusional...You will not fall in love with one of them even if it simply because of the thick of dillusion the whole world you will realize that your love for individuals was egotistical fascination and was dependent and conditional.

 

Love is attatchment...

 

Agree with most of what you are saying, but it depends on your definition of Love. My statement was about selfless love.

 

Romantic love is an attachment (with expectations), but is the practice seed that can possibly lead to selfless love.

 

Selfless love naturally expands to humanity.

 

[d'avid]

thanks @starhawk for pointing out how a broken heart prepares the road to real love.

 

Tulku seems to know a lot of things, but he seems to forget, that enlightenment ...

 

Well I think I leave all those smart words to others as discussions and being right won't enlighten me.

 

Still I dare to add: It's the same force causing downfall and ascension.

Is there a key to the realisation of the divine omnipresence in judging with pairs of opposites?

[tulku]

thanks @starhawk for pointing out how a broken heart prepares the road to real love.

 

Tulku seems to know a lot of things, but he seems to forget, that enlightenment ...

 

Well I think I leave all those smart words to others as discussions and being right won't enlighten me.

 

Still I dare to add: It's the same force causing downfall and ascension.

Is there a key to the realisation of the divine omnipresence in judging with pairs of opposites?

 

I have more courage than knowledge.

 

I merely have the balls to bring into the light what others know more than me but lack the courage to say for fear of being an outcast.

 

Love is different from compassion.

 

Likewise, the forces causing downfall are very different from the forces causing ascension. This I know very well ..

Edited September 14, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

Not exactly. The buddha described a mans love for his family as a "thraller of hearts" a thraller is a prison keeper. This is the darkness of enlightenment.

 

Is it better to be attached to love or hate? They are the same attatchment, which ever one leads you to wanting niether and walking with Tao is the better for you, likey niether one will let go of you though.

 

Love for your children is attatchment to a cultural role. Thinking you are a bachelor with no children is a cultural role. There are matriarchal cultures where the sperm doner father has no emphesisis placed on his relation from the offspring of his love affair with their mother.

 

The truth is all children ar your responsibility and none of them are your obligation.

 

Even in partnerships of dual cultivation, they are attached to their partnership...Iron sharpens iron, but it is attatchment that holds them togeather and in reality, each is only cultivating themselves and each is working for their own enlightenment. And if they were to achieve it, they would have to do so on their own.

 

The more your eyes open and the closer you get to yourselfless self with Tao, the less and less personaly involved you will get to any one individual. The less and less personal interest you will show to any one or two people. The less and less possable it will be for you to get caught up in the highs lows concerns and feelings of a relationship you will want.

 

Your mind and perceptiona and inclinations will have become so different that you will be unable perform any typical cultural roles, fuunctions or rituals. The closer you get to Tao, the more and more delusional others will seem and all the more important it will feel to spread the truth so you can speak to others...You will try to wake them from there dellusionment.

 

Once your love of humanity has brought you to the point that you realise that you CAN NOT wake another from their delusionment you will be saddened and your love for humanity will turnm to utter compassion for the delusional...You will not fall in love with one of them even if it simply because of the thick of dillusion the whole world you will realize that your love for individuals was egotistical fascination and was dependent and conditional.

 

Love is attatchment...

 

Word!

[tulku]

Agree with most of what you are saying, but it depends on your definition of Love. My statement was about selfless love.

 

Romantic love is an attachment (with expectations), but is the practice seed that can possibly lead to selfless love.

 

Selfless love naturally expands to humanity.

 

 

you don't seem to get what ion is saying..

 

he is saying that all forms of love are attachments

Edited September 14, 2011 by tulku

[Jeff]

you don't seem to get what ion is saying..

 

he is saying that all forms of love are attachments

 

 

I understand what he is saying, and it may appear that I am disagreeing, but I am actually trying to point out a refinement of what he is saying.

 

Or, I may just be disagreeing...

 

Love with associated attachment can also grow and expand. Attachments can be dropped. Selfless love (or sometimes called universal compassion) is part of our base state. True love is not the problem, attachment and desires are...

 

[tulku]

A boy spends the better part of his adolescence chasing another girl. He became a man, slaving away in the rat race, spending all his wealth on pleasing the girl, buying countless handbags, cosmetics and clothes for her, taking her on exotic trips, fancy restaurants, shopping trips. The both of them spend a huge part of their youth and younger adult years dating and just being together with each other.

 

They get married, buy a house together, have children. All along, the man not only waste his energies building up wealth, he uses his wealth to bribe the girl into stealing his life essence away through loss of his jing. His children take up even more of his time and energies by demanding sacrifices from his rest time so that the father can play with them.

 

All along, the father had this nagging doubt about his whole existence. Yes his wife and children loves him and give him plenty of happiness yet there was something missing. He felt a leakage from him, something in him dying more and more everyday. He felt himself growing older and disappearing more everyday.

 

Then one day 20 years later, with the light of dawn shining through the window, the man turned around in bed and saw his wife's face.

 

without the mask where will you hide?

can't find yourself lost in your lie

 

i know the truth now

i know who you are

and i don't love you anymore

 

it never was and never will be

you don't know how you've betrayed me

and somehow you've got everybody fooled

 

it never was and never will be

you're not real and you can't save me

somehow now you're everybody's fool

Edited September 15, 2011 by tulku

[Birch]

A boy spends the better part of his adolescence chasing another girl. He became a man, slaving away in the rat race, spending all his wealth on pleasing the girl, buying countless handbags, cosmetics and clothes for her, taking her on exotic trips, fancy restaurants, shopping trips. The both of them spend a huge part of their youth and younger adult years dating and just being together with each other.

 

They get married, buy a house together, have children. All along, the man not only waste his energies building up wealth, he uses his wealth to bribe the girl into stealing his life essence away through loss of his jing. His children take up even more of his time and energies by demanding sacrifices from his rest time so that the father can play with them.

 

All along, the father had this nagging doubt about his whole existence. Yes his wife and children loves him and give him plenty of happiness yet there was something missing. He felt a leakage from him, something in him dying more and more everyday. He felt himself growing older and disappearing more everyday.

 

Then one day 20 years later, with the light of dawn shining through the window, the man turned around in bed and saw his wife's face.

 

without the mask where will you hide?

can't find yourself lost in your lie

 

 

 

 

---sure, but it doesn't mean you have to do it all the way those other people did. What do you want? I keep reading post upon post on this theme of yours and i don't know what you want by posting it, nor where you'd like to get to by posting it. Besides whether other posters agree or disagree, what does it matter?

I posted in another thread about needing you to feel like myself. What if there's no more of that type of you left? Should i force myself upon you just in case? What if neither of us is left? We're still here:-)

 

i know the truth now

i know who you are

and i don't love you anymore

 

it never was and never will be

you don't know how you've betrayed me

and somehow you've got everybody fooled

 

it never was and never will be

you're not real and you can't save me

somehow now you're everybody's fool

[zanshin]

A boy married his high school sweetheart. They never spent a day apart. He was a tool and die maker for GM. Didn't make big money, but they had a little house and they worked hard to keep the house and yard nice, had a little garden where the boy spent hours puttering around. They had a couple kids. Their son died of cancer at a fairly young age. Their daughter became a teacher, started her own family and still lived nearby. The boy eventually retired, they did some travelling, spent lots of time with grandkids, volunteered at their church, more gardening, and generally had carried on a pleasant unenlightened life.

 

Then the wife had a massive stroke. The boy didn't want her to go to a nursing home, wanted the love of his life to be with him in their home. Everyday he lifted her to her wheelchair, he took her to the bathroom, bathed her, dressed her, toward the end he even fed her. The daughter and family friends tried to help. They'd come help so he could rest or go have some time to himself maybe relax go fishing, but he'd usually go mow the yard or he'd go to the store to buy something he thought might make his now quite unlustable love smile.

 

She passed away a few months ago. Now the boy, my friend, mostly sits in his chair. The weeds grow up and dust accumulates. I brought him dinner today, he doesn't eat much unless someone basically puts a plate in front of him. He doesn't really want to be here, hoping to see his love again soon. He thinks he's had a good life and regrets he didn't tell her how much he loved her more often. I know that because he told me so. Just a poor old broken down guy sitting in an arm chair lost in memories of his attachments, no grand material or spiritual attainments, telling stories about his unremarkable life. Sometimes he cries, but sometimes he smiles. This is love, this is life.

Edited September 15, 2011 by zanshin

[tulku]

The weeds grow up and dust accumulates.

 

He doesn't really want to be here, hoping to see his love again soon.

 

Just a poor old broken down guy sitting in an arm chair lost in memories of his attachments, no grand material or spiritual attainments, telling stories about his unremarkable life.

 

This is love, this is life.

 

 

i know the truth now

i know who you are

and i don't love you anymore

 

it never was and never will be

you don't know how you've betrayed me

and somehow you've got everybody fooled

 

it never was and never will be

you're not real and you can't save me

somehow now you're everybody's fool

Edited September 15, 2011 by tulku

[zanshin]

Oh, definitely an old fool, all my best fishing buddies are, and there is this other old guy who really acted crazy after he lost the woman he loved. But that is a story for another time.

[gendao]

A boy spends the better part of his adolescence chasing another girl. He became a man, slaving away in the rat race, spending all his wealth on pleasing the girl, buying countless handbags, cosmetics and clothes for her, taking her on exotic trips, fancy restaurants, shopping trips. The both of them spend a huge part of their youth and younger adult years dating and just being together with each other.

 

They get married, buy a house together, have children. All along, the man not only waste his energies building up wealth, he uses his wealth to bribe the girl into stealing his life essence away through loss of his jing. His children take up even more of his time and energies by demanding sacrifices from his rest time so that the father can play with them.

 

All along, the father had this nagging doubt about his whole existence. Yes his wife and children loves him and give him plenty of happiness yet there was something missing. He felt a leakage from him, something in him dying more and more everyday. He felt himself growing older and disappearing more everyday.

 

Then one day 20 years later, with the light of dawn shining through the window, the man turned around in bed and saw his wife's face.

Youch! Better develop your body of light then, buddy!

[iamtheare]

What is love defined as? Deep affection.

What is affection defined as? Fondness.

What is fondness defined as? A strong preference.

What is prefer defined as? Like better than others/choose.

What is choose defined as? To select from alternatives.

 

What is attachment defined as? To bind, secure or tie.

 

Love is to choose something, prefer it and to feel deeply for it. Is to love something to be attached to it? Yes, we tend to attach ourselves to the things we love but we don't always do just that.

 

People give their own definitions to words and for some, the definition of love is deep affection and attachment and for others, it is being completely unattached and accepting. So to say that all love is a form of attachment is invalid because there is no real solid consensus of the definition among all people.

 

People are too fearful to say, "I selfishly love you." and it is deemed too prideful to say, "I selflessly love you." and many are too lazy to find the right words to really express how they feel. Who says to someone they love and cling to, "I bind you and I love you."

 

Then again, this can be said towards a lot of words and then we'd be here for a very long time.

[Jetsun]

What is love defined as? Deep affection.

What is affection defined as? Fondness.

What is fondness defined as? A strong preference.

What is prefer defined as? Like better than others/choose.

What is choose defined as? To select from alternatives.

 

What is attachment defined as? To bind, secure or tie.

 

Love is to choose something, prefer it and to feel deeply for it. Is to love something to be attached to it? Yes, we tend to attach ourselves to the things we love but we don't always do just that.

 

People give their own definitions to words and for some, the definition of love is deep affection and attachment and for others, it is being completely unattached and accepting. So to say that all love is a form of attachment is invalid because there is no real solid consensus of the definition among all people.

 

People are too fearful to say, "I selfishly love you." and it is deemed too prideful to say, "I selflessly love you." and many are too lazy to find the right words to really express how they feel. Who says to someone they love and cling to, "I bind you and I love you."

 

Then again, this can be said towards a lot of words and then we'd be here for a very long time.

 

Love can also be a wish, prayer or intent for the welfare of all other people, which is a universal love which radiates indiscriminately like light radiates from a bulb, it touches all who come into contact with it no matter who or what they are. This is a non restrictive love or Bodhicitta which is liberating not binding.

[iamtheare]

I agree with this but it also goes to show how many different types of love there is.

 

Basically saying, not all love is attachment and the most pure love is quite the opposite.

[ion]

To want to see people unite and connect and be free you do need to foster an impersonal love. That will lead to compassion.

 

People who aren't on the path need love. Not loving leads to division.

 

Regardless of your religious beliefs about the eternal nature of your soul, it is important tounderstand the parameters of your existence. We are primates, but very complexones with complex emotions.

 

Primates will die from parasitization if they dont have other primates around to groom them. They can be covered in tics that would've otherwise been picked of and eaten by another group member.

 

People who have healthy social bonds and are close with a group of people emotionaly groom eachother. If you love people and others love you then you laugh with people, and cry for people, you get exited for people and have pride in other people.

 

Besides cultivating selflessness and selfless thoughts and pride, the reason this is important to the individual is that as primates we are designed to be physologicly connected to other humans via the emotional complex.

 

Neurons can get dirty, they call it toxification and in a healthy human neurons "clean themselves" during emotional spells and episodes. If you love other people and laugh hard with them your neurons detoxify their overloaded cellmembranes. If you lovesome one and cry for them your neurons will clean themselves.

 

People in a competitive divided society will naturaly form looser social bonds, and in time the generations drift further apart. Nowadays a lot of people have toxified neurons and subconsciouslly seek out what have been come to be known as "toxic relationships/environments", subconsciously seeking out relationships with people or things that will more then likely be the cause of emotional outburst after emotional out burst.

 

People get into relationships where they will become attatched to someone but never form any healthy bonds, the relationship is often times codependent at least on one end and synthesizes posotive emotions through sex or drugs but usually leads to huge fights and severe emotional outburst after which the neural network has been "washed" and detoxified to some degree.

 

Better for those who are not on the path to seek healthy relationships and let love flow through them along with sadness, yet not to seek out bliss or fullfillment in one thing.

 

For anyone on the path you'll avoid deep personal relationships. Compassion will allow you to cry with others, and compasssion will allow you to laugh with others.

Edited September 17, 2011 by ion

[effilang]

i do see the divinity in women

 

i have known quite a few female spiritual practitioners who are quite divine

 

you, unfortunately, who think that bdsm or sex with sado-machoism is a fun thing is the furthest thing from being divine

 

divinity has its own standards and you fail to meet its standards by a long shot

 

i am only sadistic towards those who deserves it

 

Tulku,

 

You do not understand what Witch is trying to say, because and this may be presumptuous, but most likely you simply have not experienced it.

 

If you look at the design of the Taiji symbol you will notice that there is is Yin in Yang as there is Yang in Yin.

You will also notice on further observation that extreme Yang flows into lesser Yin and extreme Yin flows into lesser Yang and vice-versa.

 

This is not just a picture, it is a schematic for the processes in life and the methods which can be taken to reach goals.

 

By putting ones self through extreme yang or extreme yin a practitioner will find the other. Through hate they will find love. Through greed they will find charity and compassion. Through fullness they will find emptiness.

 

And on the other hand.

 

Through intelligence one will pity the stupid. Through strength one will defend the weak. Through success one will appreciate their failures.

 

Everything, a task, a method, a system, a "way" of doings things has a predominant Yin or Yang quality. When you dedicate yourself, your mind and body completely to following a path, in time you will reach your peak and without meaning to, but through that very accomplishment you will understand and attain it's complete opposite.

 

BDSM or Fetish sex may not be your way. But that is because you have never opened your soul to it in order to see it's way. "The way" in every undertaking does not reveal itself to everyone, but only to those who pursue it with the utmost of emotional and spiritual dedication.

 

There are many paths one can take to achieve understanding of our minds our bodies and the universe as a whole. They do not have to be popular, pure or even remotely related to spirituality. Simply. Anything taken to it's extreme will transform into it's opposite.

 

It is all visible in the Taiji diagram, but more than that everywhere you look. From nature, to peoples careers, hobbies etc.

 

To be a student of spirituality and a seeker of the Tao, means to understand AND accept that the 10,000 things that spring forth from the Taiji, create 10,000 paths pointing back to it that lead to the source. To understand this truth means not to discriminate. It means to always be prepared to accept everyone's "method" as equally capable.

 

The relationship between Yin and Yang is EXTREMELY relative. A person or path that is extremely yang will balance itself with extreme Yin and maintain it's center. But this may be perceived as being too much from the eyes of someone who practices a less intensive system requiring less from all directions. Yet, in both instances both individuals will find their balance. The combinational possibilities are limitless.

 

You have to open your mind more. There is no this or that. Everything is everything.

 

To disrespect Witch or attempt to discredit her methods means that you do not have the understanding or experience required to reach what she has reached, but you do have the potential. We all do, in any endeavor of our choosing. Because you have picked one way and she another, does not make you or her any better.

 

BECAUSE

 

Everything that exists in our reality is a product of the Taiji, thus ANY of those things have the inherent potential to take us back to the source. The variable here which is the seed of discrimination is our individuality and the need for compatibility.

Edited September 18, 2011 by effilang