Moderation at the Tao bums

[Mal]

Re the recent moderation discussions. There are a lot of issues and opinions, sounds like TTB

 

Some issues are more important than others. EXAMPLE at the moment among all this "debate" seemingly unnoticed except for one member another member has been posting copyrighted material. (thank you for the report notifying me of this)

 

So sometimes mod attention is needed elsewhere but PLEASE do not MISTAKE no response as no action.

 

The moderation team also has a plan, we have been working towards it with Sean... ever since TTB became moderated.

 

I expect to post some "clarifications" in the next few days and "examples" of how the insult policy works.

 

Decisions take time and this sort of decision will not be a rushed decision.

 

Have discussions.

 

Definitely try to sort it out rather than fanning the flames.

 

As moderators we are listening, it's said you have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason. The correct time to reply will come.

[Stigweard]

Re the recent moderation discussions. There are a lot of issues and opinions, sounds like TTB

 

Some issues are more important than others. EXAMPLE at the moment among all this "debate" seemingly unnoticed except for one member another member has been posting copyrighted material. (thank you for the report notifying me of this)

 

So sometimes mod attention is needed elsewhere but PLEASE do not MISTAKE no response as no action.

 

The moderation team also has a plan, we have been working towards it with Sean... ever since TTB became moderated.

 

I expect to post some "clarifications" in the next few days and "examples" of how the insult policy works.

 

Decisions take time and this sort of decision will not be a rushed decision.

 

Have discussions.

 

Definitely try to sort it out rather than fanning the flames.

 

As moderators we are listening, it's said you have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason. The correct time to reply will come.

 

This is offensive Mal. I don't want you guys to "have a plan" for us that you are working on in secret. I don't want you "managing" us.

 

I want us to have the free will to be self-determined.

 

Where is the consultation?

 

Where is the discussion?

 

Daoism, the whole purpose we are in this community together, is about LIBERTARIANISM. It is about the nurturing of individual liberty; its about human beings being able to govern themselves, to behave according to their own free will, and take responsibility for their actions.

 

Autocracy, the system that you clinging to, is an infringement of our free human rights and is a profound offense and insult against both us as members and also against the spirit of Daoism.

 

Have you become so insulated in your Concierge's Dungeon Mal that you can't see this? Are you so attached to your position that you somehow think we "need" you?

 

Sorry to let you know Mal, but TaoBums does NOT need you!

 

We don't "need" a new moderation plan developed in secret by just a handful of non-democratically appointed members.

 

We don't "need" an minority upper echelon of members deciding whats best and right for the majority.

 

Our only "need" is to allowed the liberty of free-spirited universal beings. THAT is the purpose of Daoism if ever there was one.

 

Personally I don't want your clarifications on how your rules might work.

 

I WANT US TO WORK IT OUT FOR OURSELVES !!!

 

Invest in loss Mal, learn to let go of your attachments to control. Learn what it is to be a regular old free-spirited TaoBum again.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence as you know so please take a moment to consider my perspective. You are not the same Mal my friend, just like I became not the same Stig. I have remembered who I am in here, I wish you would do the same.

 

[johndoe2012]

Edited December 9, 2011 by chris d

[RiverSnake]

Maybe its just me... but your sounding like a big panzy Stig.

 

I rather have a philosopher king than democratic (not the same as a republic) rule in which all the citizens have input...shit doesn't get done when you wait on every single persons whim and opinion nor is it practical for an internet forum.

 

My 2 cents peace

[tulku]

 

This is offensive Mal. I don't want you guys to "have a plan" for us that you are working on in secret. I don't want you "managing" us.

 

I want us to have the free will to be self-determined.

 

Where is the consultation?

 

Where is the discussion?

 

Daoism, the whole purpose we are in this community together, is about LIBERTARIANISM. It is about the nurturing of individual liberty; its about human beings being able to govern themselves, to behave according to their own free will, and take responsibility for their actions.

 

Autocracy, the system that you clinging to, is an infringement of our free human rights and is a profound offense and insult against both us as members and also against the spirit of Daoism.

 

Have you become so insulated in your Concierge's Dungeon Mal that you can't see this? Are you so attached to your position that you somehow think we "need" you?

 

Sorry to let you know Mal, but TaoBums does NOT need you!

 

We don't "need" a new moderation plan developed in secret by just a handful of non-democratically appointed members.

 

We don't "need" an minority upper echelon of members deciding whats best and right for the majority.

 

Our only "need" is to allowed the liberty of free-spirited universal beings. THAT is the purpose of Daoism if ever there was one.

 

Personally I don't want your clarifications on how your rules might work.

 

I WANT US TO WORK IT OUT FOR OURSELVES !!!

 

Invest in loss Mal, learn to let go of your attachments to control. Learn what it is to be a regular old free-spirited TaoBum again.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence as you know so please take a moment to consider my perspective. You are not the same Mal my friend, just like I became not the same Stig. I have remembered who I am in here, I wish you would do the same.

 

 

Let's talk about individual liberty for a second, stig.

 

When you poked your nose into exchange between me and Witch, you are already intruding on our individual liberties.

 

You talk about giving everybody the liberty to say what they want.

 

OK, Alright, let me give you a scenario. Well it is not a scenario but a situation which is actually happening right now.

 

I am now talking about how True Love for Enlightenment does not contain Lust.

 

Now suppose there are 1000 posters on this board.

 

Only 100 posters support my thread and the other 900 posters want me to shut up.

 

Now if everybody get their way, if everybody has the right to vote for me to shut up, wouldn't that be intruding on my individual liberty to say what I wanna say about Lust?

 

This is the fcuking problem with democracy right now.

 

You don't get to talk about how everyone should have individual liberties and then get a few of your buddies to shut up those who are a5t conflict with your own interests.

 

Which is what you did btw by poking into exchanges between me and Witch.

Edited September 9, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

Let's talk about individual liberty for a second, stig.

 

When you poked your nose into exchange between me and Witch, you are already intruding on our individual liberties.

 

You talk about giving everybody the liberty to say what they want.

 

OK, Alright, let me give you a scenario. Well it is not a scenario but a situation which is actually happening right now.

 

I am now talking about how True Love for Enlightenment does not contain Lust.

 

Now suppose there are 1000 posters on this board.

 

Only 100 posters support my thread and the other 900 posters want me to shut up.

 

Now if everybody get their way, if everybody has the right to vote for me to shut up, wouldn't that be intruding on my individual liberty to say what I wanna say about Lust?

 

This is the fcuking problem with democracy right now.

 

You don't get to talk about how everyone should have individual liberties and then get a few of your buddies to shut up those who are a5t conflict with your own interests.

 

Which is what you did btw by poking into exchanges between me and Witch.

 

This is how democracies and internet forums fail in the past.

 

Groups of peeps with certain like-minded interests get together and push out those unique individuals who tickle the ego of almost everyone on this board.

 

Take for example this particular forum.

 

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

 

It has a bunch of racists in there well most people are racists in there.

 

So if you ever talk about how muslims or blacks are peeps too and should be given equal rights, the majority of the peeps will gang up to push you out.

 

Completely Free Individual Liberties, Stig? When you have already demonstrated how aptly you ABUSE Completely Free individual Liberties to push out those at conflicts with your interests?

 

Gimme a break.

 

I think there should be some restrictions and some moderation for stuff which serve no purpose other than to hurt people.. like as in no insults ever.

 

What purpose does insults serve? Other than to hurt people?

Edited September 9, 2011 by tulku

[Mal]

This is offensive Mal. I don't want you guys to

<snip>

 

So you won't even give us time to make a post, but you can tell me what you already think about it?

[Mal]

[Stigweard]

So you won't even give us time to make a post, but you can tell me what you already think about it?

You just don't get it do you Mal?

 

It's the WAY moderation is being run that's the issue.

 

You are violating my right to be self-determined. You are denying our ability to work it our ourselves.

 

THAT is a crime against our humanity.

 

The further you entrench yourselves in this autocratic model the further you are going to move away from the libertarian spirit of Laozi. And, on a forum "supposedly" all about Daoist living, that is hypocrisy to the extreme.

 

You are sending out a clear message that, "Yeah we talk about it, but we don't really believe it enough to live it."

 

Seriously???

 

The more you defend and support the doctrine of autocracy the more you are saying Laozi and Zhuangzi are just idealistic idiots.

[scotty2000]

So you won't even give us time to make a post, but you can tell me what you already think about it?

 

You've had time, and you just did make a post. What took you so long to make that one, in which you said essentially nothing?

 

Although Sunya and I have agreed to part ways, what has taken so long for him to be suspended for the multiple forum rules that he's broken? Is it simply because I was the bearer of the offenses...and since I'm against the moderation team here and have been problematic for you, that it's okay for me to bear them? It's justified?

 

It's been over a few days now. Are you not going to do it simply because I'm hounding you guys about it?

 

This is offensive Mal.

 

Yes. And speaking of taking time to make decisions...during the course of all of these events, each response from you, Mal, has been indicative of not listening, but already having a decision.

 

Take for instance, your first reply to me after Seth Ananda's 29 insults:

 

Should be pretty clear after Seth's last post. Dozens of clear insults.

 

Yet I wonder why he felt compelled to post like that? Well I know why as he told me so it's a bit rhetorical

 

This was a completely biased and inconsiderate response from the getgo. It wasn't just "oh well we have to take time to decide". Your view was already quite clear!

 

This has happened another couple of times from you. So,

 

Who says it is about Mal?

 

I do, without hesistation. For this and many other instances in the past year or two here.

 

We also need to develop a tremendous tolerance and appreciation for different personal styles of embodying the dharma.

 

Perhaps this pertains to the 'provocative' style, as well? I don't see much of a tolerance and appreciation for me at this forum, coming primarily from the moderation team. And I'm not going to change my opinions, or who I am anytime soon...

 

(By the way, Rainbow Vein...I think we are all doing well in our personal lives. Just saying this since you do seem concerned.)

[scotty2000]

Also, I wanted to comment on this:

 

Re the recent moderation discussions. There are a lot of issues and opinions, sounds like TTB

 

No, actually this sounds like a forum with moderation that isn't working. We should be discussing things related to Taoism or spirituality. Having issues and opinions related to that is TTB.

 

This is just, as Sloppy Zhang said, a farce.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Some issues are more important than others. EXAMPLE at the moment among all this "debate" seemingly unnoticed except for one member another member has been posting copyrighted material. (thank you for the report notifying me of this)

 

 

I'm wondering how this goes.. I mean smallish excerpts can be used legally for educational purposes, which is generally when they're used here. Is that not allowed, or is it just that really long excerpts that are not allowed? I mean we can quote, no? What about you tube videos?

[Mal]

You tube is cool, it will look after its own copyright (that is why not all vids play internationally)

 

I'm wondering how this goes.. I mean smallish excerpts can be used legally for educational purposes, which is generally when they're used here.

 

Copyright is strict i.e we are not an educational facility. The forum terms and rules are

 

You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this bulletin board.

 

While nobody minds minds a quote or 2 as a reference. Not entire posts of only quoted material directly from a book.

 

That's all sorted after a discussion with the member and the quoted texts removed with help from the reporter.

[mjjbecker]

This is Sean's forum. He owns the site and pays the bills. There are no 'rights' beyond what Sean agrees to.

 

What is disappointing is the shocking amount of ingratitude and attitude of entitlement.

 

Stig, you are missing the point entirely. There is no 'freedom' in the daoist sense here. There are rules-stated on the forum. One of them being that 'the moderators decisions should be respected'. The internet is also subject to the laws of different countries. It is not a free-for-all, where people can do what they want. Posting copyright materials, making threats against people, libel, etc. These are all subject to law. Sean, as the owner of the site, is subject to these laws-as are the participants here.

 

Also Stig, you made it clear you didn't want to be a moderator-but you seem instead to want to be the owner/administrator. You want the forum to comply with your demands and wishes, what you consider to be correct and proper. Seemingly this did not agree with the other moderators/Sean-going from what you have written. Well, it is Sean's call. He put in the moderators-because increasingly members would not moderate their own behaviour.

 

Putting it simply, this isn't 'your' forum. It is Sean's. If you want something different, you can of course set up your own forum and do your own thing. As it is, you are a guest here like the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with offering ideas on how things might be improved. You have however gone beyond this and seem to be making demands instead. You perhaps don't stop to consider that it isn't your forum, and indeed that other members here may not agree with you.

 

On the subject of being guests, it would be nice for everyone to remember that this is exactly what we are here. It isn't for us to dictate terms, make demands or just do whatever we please.

 

The simple plain fact is there would be no rules, laws, etc if people could control their own behaviour.

 

The other plain, simple fact is that no one here gets suspended or banned without behaving in a manner that is disrespectful to others. Anyone that is subject to moderator action has done something first. Don't blame the moderators when you have done something that has led to action being taken.

 

This is like a playgound fight between children. What the participants should remember is what their teachers used to point out. Who started it is not the issue-you took action which broke the rules and that is why action is now being taken against you. You don't decide what is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour-you follow the rules. This is life-in school or in society.

 

There has been much bolding of text and subjective reading of the rules, in attempts to 'prove' one opinion or the other is correct. I thought the one guiding principle over all others was supposed to be:

 

'Treat other members with respect.'

 

Where is the respect?

 

Ultimately, whether we like it or not, we have little to no control over other people and their actions. What we have is the choice to control our own actions.

 

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.' This statement is not simply about what action we are going to take, but also the actions we have taken. Introspection and self examination. We blame and curse others, but what part did we play in this? What were our actions? If we had behaved differently, would the outcome have been different? It is usually the case.

 

'To err is human, to forgive is divine.' Non of the unpleasantness and anger on these matters can be making anyone happy or feel good. There is no satisfaction to be gained by this arguing. And that is all it is. It is not some great issue or matter. This is no 'spring revolution'. It is simply bruised egos.

 

I like to read this prayer at times as it helps me personally gain some perspective:

 

Prayer of Saint Francis

 

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love.

Where there is injury, pardon.

Where there is doubt, faith.

Where there is despair, hope.

Where there is darkness, light.

Where there is sadness, joy.

 

O Divine Master,

grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;

to be understood, as to understand;

to be loved, as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive.

It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,

and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

 

Amen.

 

The prayer is an exceedingly difficult benchmark to live up to, and I fail in doing so every day. However, it doesn't change the value of the wisdom contained within, nor the benefit-to all-of at least trying to follow it.

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm glad we have moderators here now because we now have people we can throw stones at when we get mad.

[dawei]

This is Sean's forum. He owns the site and pays the bills. There are no 'rights' beyond what Sean agrees to.

 

What is disappointing is the shocking amount of ingratitude and attitude of entitlement.

 

Stig, you are missing the point entirely. There is no 'freedom' in the daoist sense here. There are rules-stated on the forum. One of them being that 'the moderators decisions should be respected'. The internet is also subject to the laws of different countries. It is not a free-for-all, where people can do what they want. Posting copyright materials, making threats against people, libel, etc. These are all subject to law. Sean, as the owner of the site, is subject to these laws-as are the participants here.

 

Also Stig, you made it clear you didn't want to be a moderator-but you seem instead to want to be the owner/administrator. You want the forum to comply with your demands and wishes, what you consider to be correct and proper. Seemingly this did not agree with the other moderators/Sean-going from what you have written. Well, it is Sean's call. He put in the moderators-because increasingly members would not moderate their own behaviour.

 

Putting it simply, this isn't 'your' forum. It is Sean's. If you want something different, you can of course set up your own forum and do your own thing. As it is, you are a guest here like the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with offering ideas on how things might be improved. You have however gone beyond this and seem to be making demands instead. You perhaps don't stop to consider that it isn't your forum, and indeed that other members here may not agree with you.

Exactly why I cannot wholeheartedly agree with the proposed alternate ideas presented of 'self-moderation'; lynch-mob rule is not forum rule. Until mods or Sean proposes an open discussion on it, I cannot advocate too much change right now. But I am willing to listen to ideas and comment because I have been on both sides, but I have no problem with the very FACT that the owner/mods dictate how the forum is run.

 

I will say that I have spoke out about the precedents set by decisions and indecision but I hope that is not taken as a sign of my dissatisfaction of the forum; I simply observe problems that it produces and may produce in the future. And I understand what Stig is in principle presenting; an alternate approach. But it may not be what owner/mods want. I think that since they have let such discussions go on then it can go on.

[Stigweard]

This is Sean's forum. He owns the site and pays the bills. There are no 'rights' beyond what Sean agrees to.

Oh blah, blah, blah, Sean's site, blah, blah, blah.

 

Sean wouldn't close down this site and he knows it. He has too many attachments to it to do that. So let's forget about him exercising that power.

 

And both Sean and the appointed moderators could also suspend or ban me right now as well. But they have no grounds to do that (because "no insults," for the most part, is part of my personal ethic not because I am restraining myself to conform to a rule) so that's not going to happen either.

 

Sure they could suddenly change their rules and say, "Anyone who speaks up against the Mod Team or challenges the way things are done will be suspended". But somehow I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

 

So my liberty and rights to speak freely is uninhibited, wouldn't you say?

 

 

What is disappointing is the shocking amount of ingratitude and attitude of entitlement.

As to gratitude. Well those who know me here, including Sean and the Mod Team, know that my gratitude to The TaoBums and to its members is beyond measure. In fact the passion that drives my efforts is exactly proportional to the gratitude that I have for this community.

 

As to entitlement. Hell yes! I claim my right to speak as I choose. I claim my right to have an opinion on the way things are being managed. I claim my right to voice my opinion and be as provocative as I want. And I claim my right to advocate what I consider to be better ways of operating as a community.

 

Stig, you are missing the point entirely. There is no 'freedom' in the daoist sense here. There are rules-stated on the forum. One of them being that 'the moderators decisions should be respected'. The internet is also subject to the laws of different countries. It is not a free-for-all, where people can do what they want. Posting copyright materials, making threats against people, libel, etc. These are all subject to law. Sean, as the owner of the site, is subject to these laws-as are the participants here.

 

Also Stig, you made it clear you didn't want to be a moderator-but you seem instead to want to be the owner/administrator. You want the forum to comply with your demands and wishes, what you consider to be correct and proper. Seemingly this did not agree with the other moderators/Sean-going from what you have written. Well, it is Sean's call. He put in the moderators-because increasingly members would not moderate their own behaviour.

 

Putting it simply, this isn't 'your' forum. It is Sean's. If you want something different, you can of course set up your own forum and do your own thing. As it is, you are a guest here like the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with offering ideas on how things might be improved. You have however gone beyond this and seem to be making demands instead. You perhaps don't stop to consider that it isn't your forum, and indeed that other members here may not agree with you.

 

On the subject of being guests, it would be nice for everyone to remember that this is exactly what we are here. It isn't for us to dictate terms, make demands or just do whatever we please.

Really? No freedom? Well matey here I am speaking freely in a "daoist sense". My personal guidelines of virtue wouldn't have me posting any of the offending matter you mentioned above anyway so I have no restrictions there.

 

The ONLY restriction that is offensive in a "daoist sense", and the one that I am obviously challenging, is the idea that we have the Mod Team making decisions for everybody, that the members have been robbed of their ability to be self-moderating and self-determining. We have an autocratic power structure which I think violates Laozi's principles of libertarianism and thus I think it is a hypocrisy for a Daoist community like TTBs to be operating as such.

 

Yes Sean has the right to manage this forum any way he wants. But I also have the right to challenge that view if I feel I need to and speak as freely as I want about it.

 

If you are trying to tell me that I should just accept the way it is and not ask "why?" then you are advocating blind ignorance. You are telling me that, even though I see a blaring error that violates the very purpose we are here i.e. Daoism, that I should just hold my tongue and say nothing.

 

Why? Because its Sean's site and I am just a guest?

 

I am not just a guest. You are not just a guest. We are members of a community.

 

Sean wouldn't even have this site up if we weren't here. He wouldn't be able to "pay the bills" if we weren't here. The fact that we are here means that he can ask $$ from the advertisers you see up. The fact that we are here means people click on the adsense ads that gives him a trickle of income. The fact that we are here means he has a mailing list he can email to to make some cash from affiliates. The fact that we are here means he gets cash from the people who become yearly subscribers.

 

You think Sean has all the power here ... ha!

 

Sean is just as dependent on us for this site as we are dependent on him. It's a perfectly symbiotic relationship.

 

I am a member of this community and if something disturbs me, if something offends me than my human liberty entitles me to speak my mind openly and freely.

 

If you don't agree with me than it is your human liberty that entitles you to speak your mind openly and freely.

 

Ain't that just beutiful!!!!

 

 

The simple plain fact is there would be no rules, laws, etc if people could control their own behaviour.

Well obviously I agree with you 100%

 

But its also the simple plain fact that people can't and therefore we need to have some controls in place.

 

It's the "how to" of those controls that is the issue here.

 

On one end of the scale we have no control, at the other we have autocratic control. My preference is to have a control mechanism that is as close to no control as possible whilst still minimizing forum disturbances.

 

Thus have a situation where members have a way of working it out themselves and have a Mod Team with the power to simply enforce the consensus. Have all the discussion open and free for all to engage in. Let it be "us moderating ourselves as a community."

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

But its also the simple plain fact that people can't and therefore we need to have some controls in place.

 

It's the "how to" of those controls that is the issue here.

 

On one end of the scale we have no control, at the other we have autocratic control. My preference is to have a control mechanism that is as close to no control as possible whilst still minimizing forum disturbances.

 

How do you define "forum disturbances"?

 

Because I recall the good old kunlun days. We had some crazy threads. A fair amount of bashing occurred in them, and some direct personal insults. But was the forum "disturbed"?

 

I'd say no.

 

People would log in, see a 33 page thread on the front page, and decide if they want to wade into it. If so, they did. If not, they didn't.

 

The threads that have kicked off this recent round of mod talks (so tulku's threads, the stuff involving scotty's incarnations, etc) I had no notice of. Why? Because I typically don't wander into threads like that.

 

I also don't get into threads talking about alternate histories of various people/things, and there are some people who get into trouble over those.

 

And I generally don't get involved with people who come across as condescending or who talk about stuff I don't care about (so people like vmarco, talks about dependent origination, etc etc etc).

 

My point is this: these threads have been the center of moderator action over the "no insult" policy. But none of these threads are disruptive to the forum as a whole.

 

What HAS become disruptive is the "no insult" policy. Because there is no clear definition of "insult". So now we have people who, rightly so, point out the uneven enforcement of the rule. Why do some people get away with a lot, and some people get away with very little? The "no insult" policy might itself be a fixed object, but it is attached to a very much moving object- and as a result, our "fixed" policy starts to move.

 

I suggest we do away with the "no insult" policy, and instate a "no disturbance" policy, where "disturbance" is defined as something that impedes the operation of the forum, and something that causes excessive navigation hassle to other members.

 

So flooding a thread with back to back messages of an irrelevant nature- "disturbance", as if I'm participating in a thread I have to sort through someone's spammy messages that could all be condensed into one post.

 

Flooding the general message board with multiple topics of the same nature- "disturbance", because people browsing the boards have to sort through what's just a copycat thread, and what's something new.

 

Two people locked in an intense back and forth, where they're tearing each other apart and occasionally throwing an insult out the side of their mouths- not a disturbance, possible candidate to move to the pit where they can carry on.

 

One person posting one thread about how Wang Liping doesn't teach effective methods- obvious flame bait which may lead to a 33 page thread filled with derailments and insults, and may wind up getting moved to the pit, but not inherently disruptive.

 

A thread that says that sloppy zhang is a n00b bcuz he lerns from bookz- off topic, move to the off topic section, but not inherently disruptive.

 

Threads that post porn, illegal material, links to viruses, or material which is threatening in some way- that's disruptive, aside from other problems.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[scotty2000]

Prayer of Saint Francis

 

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love.

Where there is injury, pardon.

Where there is doubt, faith.

Where there is despair, hope.

Where there is darkness, light.

Where there is sadness, joy.

 

O Divine Master,

grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;

to be understood, as to understand;

to be loved, as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive.

It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,

and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

 

Amen.

 

The prayer is an exceedingly difficult benchmark to live up to, and I fail in doing so every day.

 

Today included.

 

You have not been an instrument of peace for the Lord by posting what you did. You did not sow love in your post. You did not pardon us for our opinions and actions. You did not spread light; in fact you've spread darkness by posting your ignorance (we are guests and not members here? etc). You did not bring joy to us...in fact the opposite. You did not console anyone. You didn't understand our points of view, nor were you understanding towards anyone in general. You did not love either in feeling or action.

 

Nothing bothers me more than someone putting on a front, spiritually. If you're going to talk the talk (of this prayer) then you better walk the walk. Otherwise, your words and character are worthless.

 

May the prayer actually work the next time you use it.

[scotty2000]

There is no 'freedom' in the daoist sense here. There are rules-stated on the forum.

 

There are rules, which I have respected and followed according to the spirit as well as the letter.

 

Yet the moderators suspended me (I suggest you read the entire Seth Ananda thread carefully, without bias).

 

My response is to take my freedom...not have it doled out to me by surprisingly corrupt human beings. Those who have no real power when it comes down to it.

 

All of the rules here are arbitrary, yet we respect them as members of this community. Keep it in perspective.

[mjjbecker]

Today included.

 

You have not been an instrument of peace for the Lord by posting what you did. You did not sow love in your post. You did not pardon us for our opinions and actions. You did not spread light; in fact you've spread darkness by posting your ignorance (we are guests and not members here? etc). You did not bring joy to us...in fact the opposite. You did not console anyone. You didn't understand our points of view, nor were you understanding towards anyone in general. You did not love either in feeling or action.

 

Nothing bothers me more than someone putting on a front, spiritually. If you're going to talk the talk (of this prayer) then you better walk the walk. Otherwise, your words and character are worthless.

 

May the prayer actually work the next time you use it.

 

Then perhaps you can help me along the way by following the tenets in the prayer yourself?

[scotty2000]

Then perhaps you can help me along the way by following the tenets in the prayer yourself?

 

Be a mature adult and take some responsibility for your own words.

 

My reasons for acting the way I have been here are of an entirely pure intent. So I'm good, between myself and my Accuser. I also fail in the prayer, and that is why you don't see me posting it.

[mjjbecker]

Stig,

 

No one doubts your passion or sincerity. What I would ask is this: If the majority of the forum disagreed with your views on this, would you abide by that?

 

I propose a simple vote with two choices:

 

1. We try the system that you are suggesting for 3-6 months (I think those were the timescales you mentioned).

 

2. We continue with the current system of moderators and abide by the moderators decisions.

 

Let there be a poll, with a timed cut-off. It will not be open to new members registered after the time of this post-this is to prevent anyone from unduly influencing the result. Existing members only. Once the poll has run its course then we agree to follow the view of the majority.

 

I am happy to abide by whatever result the poll delivers. What say you?

[mjjbecker]

Be a mature adult and take some responsibility for your own words.

 

My reasons for acting the way I have been here are of an entirely pure intent. So I'm good, between myself and my Accuser. I also fail in the prayer, and that is why you don't see me posting it.

 

I do. That is why I do not abuse people and that is why I am not suspended.

[scotty2000]

I have not abused anyone, either. Yet I am suspended. The reason given was that I have been 'provocative'.