Calm Spaciousness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thought this would be a good topic as quieting the mind is an important part of Taoist meditation, as well as other meditations, and is an often heard cause of frustration especially in earlier stages.

 

Of course, not everyone here is a teacher, but we can still share what works for us, as it may work for others.

 

 

For myself, I employ a method which I think I read about in "Opening the Dragon Gate," or else a book by the Dalai Lama, and that is: when a thought comes in, quickly judge it either "good" or "bad" and then let it go.

 

for example, a thought comes in, "I wonder if I'll stop thinking soon" - bad. Let it go.

 

another example, "focus on Emptiness" - good. Let it go.

 

 

Of course, you might judge these in reverse depending..

 

 

It usually takes me a few minutes before thoughts start to disappear, and maybe 10-15 minutes before I enter a more transcendental state. Sometimes less, rarely more.. I've been meditating for about 5 years. [edit: on occassion I'll do percentage breathing to get started, as this slows everything down]

 

I also think it's important to let the thoughts cease as much as possible rather than whipping them down, so I don't mind taking 5 minutes or so to get into the meditation and let whatever thought inertias I have work themselves out before I go to the "house of Calm Spaciousness" (quoting from a Taoist text: "Calm spaciousness is the house of Spiritual Light") where thoughts are naturally absent.

 

When I am in that place, rather than being aware of thoughts, I become aware of my body, or at least the energy in my body and the way it moves, expands, settles, purges, draws, rises, nourishes, etc.....

 

Perhaps I'm a bit rogue in my methods, but, for me this second stage is the most essential and beyond that is like "nice if you get it" but for purposes of holistic health, I'm content with it. A few thoughts might pop up once in a while once I'm there but they don't draw from my awareness of this state which is essentially a still form of Chi Gong by some descriptions. I feel that my musical training has also been useful to develop attention and intent(ion), so other things people do to develop concentration might also assist their endeavour.

 

Getting beyond this stage to becoming one with Emptiness might happen eventually, but I'll leave that to those more qualified to speak about it..

 

hope this is helpful to someone..

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[iamtheare]

Your writing is quite heart warming.

 

Doing breathing exercises before meditation really helps bring me closer to achieving that state of mind rather than simply sitting down and letting go. I find that any sort of qi exercises before meditation really helps. Almost like a preparation of sorts and not only does it help bring me to that state of mind but it helps regulate my qi making it easier to slip out of my mind and into my body.

 

I even like visualizing the space around my "still" body as constantly moving around my body rather than penetrating mine for a few minutes before I visualize erasing the lines between my body and everything around me; then letting all that I visualized move through me. It has helped me tremendously to let go of my thoughts and to focus only on the space. There have been times I can feel the energy within a short distance of me yielding like water over rocks (trees, windows, objects in my home) and eventually making it's waves towards me then trying to let it move through me rather than around me. That is one of the most beautiful things I can say I have experienced - it's like...no longer am I the rock that the waves crash against but I am the waves that crash against the rock.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Your writing is quite heart warming.

 

 

Thanks iamtheare

 

beautiful post

[Simple_Jack]

Thought this would be a good topic as quieting the mind is an important part of Taoist meditation, as well as other meditations, and is an often heard cause of frustration especially in earlier stages.

 

Of course, not everyone here is a teacher, but we can still share what works for us, as it may work for others.

 

 

For myself, I employ a method which I think I read about in "Opening the Dragon Gate," or else a book by the Dalai Lama, and that is: when a thought comes in, quickly judge it either "good" or "bad" and then let it go.

 

for example, a thought comes in, "I wonder if I'll stop thinking soon" - bad. Let it go.

 

another example, "focus on Emptiness" - good. Let it go.

 

 

Of course, you might judge these in reverse depending..

 

 

It usually takes me a few minutes before thoughts start to disappear, and maybe 10-15 minutes before I enter a more transcendental state. Sometimes less, rarely more.. I've been meditating for about 5 years. [edit: on occassion I'll do percentage breathing to get started, as this slows everything down]

 

I also think it's important to let the thoughts cease as much as possible rather than whipping them down, so I don't mind taking 5 minutes or so to get into the meditation and let whatever thought inertias I have work themselves out before I go to the "house of Calm Spaciousness" (quoting from a Taoist text: "Calm spaciousness is the house of Spiritual Light") where thoughts are naturally absent.

 

When I am in that place, rather than being aware of thoughts, I become aware of my body, or at least the energy in my body and the way it moves, expands, settles, purges, draws, rises, nourishes, etc.....

 

Perhaps I'm a bit rogue in my methods, but, for me this second stage is the most essential and beyond that is like "nice if you get it" but for purposes of holistic health, I'm content with it. A few thoughts might pop up once in a while once I'm there but they don't draw from my awareness of this state which is essentially a still form of Chi Gong by some descriptions. I feel that my musical training has also been useful to develop attention and intent(ion), so other things people do to develop concentration might also assist their endeavour.

 

Getting beyond this stage to becoming one with Emptiness might happen eventually, but I'll leave that to those more qualified to speak about it..

 

hope this is helpful to someone..

 

 

 

For a second, I thought you were gonna talk about "emptiness meditation;" such as Taoist Zuowang or Zazen or Tibetan mahamudra....Have you tried to meditate in such a way where you don't accept or reject thoughts? Without focusing on your body and it's sensations or not focusing on anything? Just curious, is all.

 

Though, here's a link to one persons site that has a bunch of articles on Zuowang meditation which you can check out if you want: http://www.egreenway.com/taoism/zuowang.htm

[Harmonious Emptiness]

For a second, I thought you were gonna talk about "emptiness meditation;" such as Taoist Zuowang or Zazen or Tibetan mahamudra....Have you tried to meditate in such a way where you don't accept or reject thoughts? Without focusing on your body and it's sensations or not focusing on anything? Just curious, is all.

 

Though, here's a link to one persons site that has a bunch of articles on Zuowang meditation which you can check out if you want: http://www.egreenway.com/taoism/zuowang.htm

 

Thanks for the link; I like what I'm reading there..

 

That is essentially what I'm doing from the start of the meditation, and then I move more towards the rest. I aim for a state where the focus on energies dissolves thoughts without effort, but sometimes I'll whip down the odd thought if it's getting in the way of that attention. I didn't even read much about it at first but knew from reading Chuang Tzu and others that they would favour "going with the flow" over any imposed structures like "no thinking at all, ever" though thoughts can be a bit, well, superfluous, and so it's useful to be able to just accept or reject them in order to feel what's happening.

 

This quote from your link pretty much describes my experience exactly :

 

Zuowang likely inspired Chan Buddhist sitting in emptiness, which can feel a bit cold, too mental or impersonal for some Westerners. Yet Daoist zuowang differs from Chan methods and their Japanese Zen Buddhist offspring in that attaining absolute emptiness is not the goal. In zuowang the emphasis is more on process, on cultivating spontaneity and openness to ever-changing currents of the qi-field. The dissolving of the heart-mind is achieved by allowing each thought, feeling or sensation to manifest without resistance, and then surrender it to the larger flow of the qi-field to be creatively transformed. Eventually an unperturbed yet engaged state of mind is achieved. So zuowang ultimately shifts from release of the negative to a positive embrace of spontaneity and wu wei. Robinet astutely points out in her preface to Kohns translation of the Zuowang lun that the process goes beyond qigong, which grants only longevity. Zuowang is a method of salvation, and as such is actually preparatory for higher alchemy practice. Zuowang is a double dissolving, first of the contents of the heart-mind and then of the minds method of dissolving itself."

- Michael Winn, Daoist Methods of Dissolving the Heart-Mind.

[johndoe2012]

The method you described seems very similar to Mahasi vipassana noting.

 

In that tradition you give the thought a label and go deeper in your labeling as you progress. Though there are also some who say that in their experience it is only necessary to note the thought "noted" and not give it any value or description.

 

In Michael Lomax' book he writes (p. 90)

 

Because the brain wave signals are actually slower than the Qi, the mind can actually slow down and limit the Qi. Therefore engaging the mind puts a finite limitation on the Qi flow.

 

so yes, we need to disengage from the thoughts to actually do Taoist meditation.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

so yes, we need to disengage from the thoughts to actually do Taoist meditation.

 

It seems to me that Taoism is a bit more flexible on thoughts coming or going than some which are more strict about it, but that overall the thoughts should disappear so that your concentration and awareness is in the right place.

 

I've noticed that I have to eliminate thoughts from my consciousness when playing music as well or it feels like I'm loosing my grip on the reigns. I didn't put 2+2 together until recently realizing "Hey! I've been doing this all along!"

[de_paradise]

Good topic. Heres some bits. Sometimes its useful to have thoughts, at least you know you are not gripping down on some emptiness when you have passing thoughts. I think Vispassana is so popular is because its simple enough to teach that students cannot screw up, eventually everyone makes progress. If you told them that at times, thoughts can be useful, and one can throw in a fake-unconcious-style thought, and it can work to hasten a deep state, this would confuse students. Fake unconsious thought? Spaciousness is not no thoughts, but a kind of evolution of one's consiousness.

 

Just lately I have come back to "attention to sound" and to try to find the origin. I kind of know what Im looking for, a kind of patterny mixture of sound waves, similar to music. Yet consciously finding what comes before sound is kind of like trying to push though a cement wall. My only hope is that I can get so deep one day and get to the patterny mixture, and then beyond. Attention to sound is the way Matreiya and Kuan Yin acheieved enlightenment, and these are huge personages, great Buddhas, yet dont see any practioners around here of this method. I have noticed that one's effort is rewarded, but one may be completely oblivious to this. What I mean is the attention to sound (I use music or some aircon humming) with the instruction to oneself to find what comes before the sound, creates a very potent type of direction along with the focus. A big key to having this meditation work well is to be already in a good meditation state, in this meditation induced spaciousness already. If you are too conscious then it will be too graspy, and you will remain on the surface of meditation and the effects will be minimal.

[suninmyeyes]

 

...Just lately I have come back to "attention to sound" and to try to find the origin. ...

 

I am doing sound meditation too! Nice to hear of your practise de paradise.

That is may main thing daily already for almost 13 years. The way I do it is by listening to the sound within. That is all. If there are more sounds , I pick one and stick to it. Music can be heard (literally) when one starts entering more of a heavenly levels of being.

Listening to where the sound comes from. I love it. So much can be learnt from it.

It is like learning a new language and reading the life by listening to it(sound wierd but thats how I feel) , becouse everything that exists is made out of sound patterns .

Dissolving beyond sound and ALL mainfestation as you mention, that is a cement wall indeed.hahaha

I agree that one needs to be in a good meditation state already, so some other stuff , maybe some energetic practise is good to do before or as well for most of people. Or finding someone who can make 'you' hear the sound , transfer the ability - there are practicioners who can do that.

[Taomeow]

Harmonious,

 

I agree, the labeling of thoughts is a good way to stop them. (The labeling of anything is a good way to stop it. Call me something and you've eliminated everything that is not included in the label. Call a product a "painkiller" and you've eliminated from consciousness all information about what else it does, even though it's also "kidneys irritant, blood thinner, immune suppressor, hemoglobin depleter, white blood cells buster, stomach lining eater, ulcers promoter, mutagen, teratogen, carcinogen" and so on. Labels are weapons of mass destruction. That's why it's so efficient to apply them to things you are trying to destroy. Politicians and corporations live off labeling stuff. To label is to control consciousness. So a meditator ISO controlling her own consciousness without meddling in anyone else's can use it successfully too.)

 

I used this method on occasion (my labels were "right, wrong, later" -- the last one for thoughts that need a promise I will get back to them when I'm done practicing or else they will keep trying to get my attention over and over. A promise to deal with them later has to be kept though or your thoughts won't trust you and therefore won't obey you.)

[Simple_Jack]

Thanks for the link; I like what I'm reading there..

 

That is essentially what I'm doing from the start of the meditation, and then I move more towards the rest. I aim for a state where the focus on energies dissolves thoughts without effort, but sometimes I'll whip down the odd thought if it's getting in the way of that attention. I didn't even read much about it at first but knew from reading Chuang Tzu and others that they would favour "going with the flow" over any imposed structures like "no thinking at all, ever" though thoughts can be a bit, well, superfluous, and so it's useful to be able to just accept or reject them in order to feel what's happening.

 

This quote from your link pretty much describes my experience exactly :

 

Zuowang likely inspired Chan Buddhist sitting in emptiness, which can feel a bit cold, too mental or impersonal for some Westerners. Yet Daoist zuowang differs from Chan methods and their Japanese Zen Buddhist offspring in that attaining absolute emptiness is not the goal. In zuowang the emphasis is more on process, on cultivating spontaneity and openness to ever-changing currents of the qi-field. The dissolving of the heart-mind is achieved by allowing each thought, feeling or sensation to manifest without resistance, and then surrender it to the larger flow of the qi-field to be creatively transformed. Eventually an unperturbed yet engaged state of mind is achieved. So zuowang ultimately shifts from release of the negative to a positive embrace of spontaneity and wu wei. Robinet astutely points out in her preface to Kohns translation of the Zuowang lun that the process goes beyond qigong, which grants only longevity. Zuowang is a method of salvation, and as such is actually preparatory for higher alchemy practice. Zuowang is a double dissolving, first of the contents of the heart-mind and then of the minds method of dissolving itself."

- Michael Winn, Daoist Methods of Dissolving the Heart-Mind.

Well, the process of meditation is universal in that the point is to eventually reach samadhi, though this isn't really the goal in itself just from these realms of mental stillness you can then "investigate" or apply insight to come to a realization of the nature of experience.

 

As for Zazen...Like above it is used as a means to still the mind, though even in this school clinging (what they call "Dead Tree Zen") to this experience or attachment to inert lack of thought, or stale "clarity;" is looked at as wrong practice. So clinging to a state of ordinary lack of thoughts is not something that is advocated in this school. Though it is a problem among those who don't know proper cultivation principles.

 

The quote you posted sounds similar to (actual) Zen, dzogchen and mahamudra; where someone who has experience of "The natural state" or "rigpa" integrates (when in the post-meditative state) this state of spontaneous awareness when interacting with their environment...Non-attachment or not dwelling and letting each experience, thoughts or whatever is encountered arise; without clinging, accepting or rejecting...Acting accordingly to the situation without dwelling... So yeah spontaneity and wu-wei/non-action like what the above quote is talking about is also something to "achieve" in Buddhism also.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So I'm not the only one.. It's strange sometimes during meditation or just a beta-aware state when the hum of the street starts to ring with symphonic cohesion and the different sonic frequencies start to resonate at their pitch and harmonize with others... I start to feel like I'm in the middle of it and have the power to hold it in tune or let it dissolve...

 

Anyone else feel that before? Thought I might be nuts the first time it happened while just sitting outside in a downtown University campus.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

can then "investigate" or apply insight to come to a realization of the nature of experience.

 

 

I agree. Like the awareness beyond thoughts during performance will not play the music, the awareness beyond thoughts during meditation is just a requirement for proper awareness, which is also just a requirement towards various goals.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Spaciousness is not no thoughts, but a kind of evolution of one's consiousness.

 

 

Well said.

[dwai]

Thought this would be a good topic as quieting the mind is an important part of Taoist meditation, as well as other meditations, and is an often heard cause of frustration especially in earlier stages.

 

Of course, not everyone here is a teacher, but we can still share what works for us, as it may work for others.

 

 

For myself, I employ a method which I think I read about in "Opening the Dragon Gate," or else a book by the Dalai Lama, and that is: when a thought comes in, quickly judge it either "good" or "bad" and then let it go.

 

for example, a thought comes in, "I wonder if I'll stop thinking soon" - bad. Let it go.

 

another example, "focus on Emptiness" - good. Let it go.

 

 

Of course, you might judge these in reverse depending..

 

 

It usually takes me a few minutes before thoughts start to disappear, and maybe 10-15 minutes before I enter a more transcendental state. Sometimes less, rarely more.. I've been meditating for about 5 years. [edit: on occassion I'll do percentage breathing to get started, as this slows everything down]

 

I also think it's important to let the thoughts cease as much as possible rather than whipping them down, so I don't mind taking 5 minutes or so to get into the meditation and let whatever thought inertias I have work themselves out before I go to the "house of Calm Spaciousness" (quoting from a Taoist text: "Calm spaciousness is the house of Spiritual Light") where thoughts are naturally absent.

 

When I am in that place, rather than being aware of thoughts, I become aware of my body, or at least the energy in my body and the way it moves, expands, settles, purges, draws, rises, nourishes, etc.....

 

Perhaps I'm a bit rogue in my methods, but, for me this second stage is the most essential and beyond that is like "nice if you get it" but for purposes of holistic health, I'm content with it. A few thoughts might pop up once in a while once I'm there but they don't draw from my awareness of this state which is essentially a still form of Chi Gong by some descriptions. I feel that my musical training has also been useful to develop attention and intent(ion), so other things people do to develop concentration might also assist their endeavour.

 

Getting beyond this stage to becoming one with Emptiness might happen eventually, but I'll leave that to those more qualified to speak about it..

 

hope this is helpful to someone..

 

 

 

 

Spend enough time in any mechanical, repetitive action and the following will naturally happen:

 

1) Observer mind will surface

2) spend enough time not latching on to thoughts while in observer mind and mind will automatically start expanding (by mind expanding I mean the gap between thoughts will elongate)

3) spend enough time in the gap and it will result in cessation of thoughts

 

These of course are dependent on having a mind-frame to not be eager to experience (anything at all) and be open and accepting of anything and everything that rises, by detaching oneself from the thoughts and emotions.

 

Any of the following (and many more unlisted) can be used to induce this:

 

breath observation, yogic asanas, taiji chuan, running, walking, gardening (add your favorite activity)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Spend enough time in any mechanical, repetitive action and the following will naturally happen:

 

 

My only potential disagreement with this is that meditation should clarify and not dull the mind, whereas mindless actions can dull the mind. So, as long as the actions are done with clarity..

[dwai]

My only potential disagreement with this is that meditation should clarify and not dull the mind, whereas mindless actions can dull the mind. So, as long as the actions are done with clarity..

I should have qualified that with "with intent and awareness"

[LBDaoist]

So I'm not the only one.. It's strange sometimes during meditation or just a beta-aware state when the hum of the street starts to ring with symphonic cohesion and the different sonic frequencies start to resonate at their pitch and harmonize with others... I start to feel like I'm in the middle of it and have the power to hold it in tune or let it dissolve...

 

Anyone else feel that before? Thought I might be nuts the first time it happened while just sitting outside in a downtown University campus.

 

I have had this experience. On my own quest to lessen the chaotic thought energies, I find that tuning into sound has been helpful. It seems to me that "thought" exists as a sense, just like sight or sound or feel. By actively engaging in "listening", it has become easier to tame the errant thoughts.

[Ish]

I've done a bit of mantra meditation and I found i naturally went towards what i've read is called the "diamond method" of mantra recitation.

This is saying the mantra in your mind, listening to the mantra internally and silently saying the mantra externally all at the same time. Might sound like a handful but if you try it, it absorbs you into the mantra quite nicely.

If i remember correctly i would then drop the silently saying the mantra and just go into repeating the mantra mentally.

The practice is quite fun for leading into concentration states - might play with it tomorrow, haven't done this for a while.

[Ish]

I've done a bit of mantra meditation and I found i naturally went towards what i've read is called the "diamond method" of mantra recitation.

This is saying the mantra in your mind, listening to the mantra internally and silently saying the mantra externally all at the same time. Might sound like a handful but if you try it, it absorbs you into the mantra quite nicely.

If i remember correctly i would then drop the silently saying the mantra and just go into repeating the mantra mentally.

The practice is quite fun for leading into concentration states - might play with it tomorrow, haven't done this for a while.

 

So after making this post last night i did some mantra practice - here's a brief outline.

1. Repeating "Om Mani Padme Hum" as my mantra

2. Started with diamond method outlined above

3. Dropped the external silent repeating, just repeating in the mind

4. Without decreasing concentration, made the mantra more and more effortless

5. Started to lose awareness of some of my body

6. As it became more and more effortless i dropped saying the mantra and just "listened"

7. Went into 1st jhana state - bodily bliss, light etc

8. Quickly went through bliss and just rested in a very calm open spacious state, but also very aware.

 

I think i then went out of progressing in concentration and just practiced zen style meditation.

 

Well there's an easy method if you want to get enjoyable calm spaciousness state without losing awareness, took about 10-15 mins to get from 1-8, then just enjoyed the state for who knows how long.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

The Mind vs The Heart

 

written "to help us live in the light of the heart rather than in the confusion of the mind and to guide us in our journey towards pure love and total peace," by the late Alice Signeur, wife of Taoist healer/professor Joel Signeur.

 

Seems like the something that will serve well here.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Some thoughts on calm-spaciousness:

 

 

It takes time, but if you give it time you will start to realize in your meditation those thing you read about.

 

I think the main idea is attention rather than thinking. Put your attention on all experiences during meditation and eventually the thought energy will be channeled to clear minded awareness. It might take 25 minutes or so before it starts and thoughts have finally drifted by and you are left with the clear blue sky. Eventually it won't take so long, maybe 10 or even 5 minutes. Then even less.

 

Just follow the way of the heavens. Look at the clouds. They are like the true essence of mind. The wind-gusts are like thoughts that arise. Clouds allow these to push them up a bit, move, change shape a bit, but they continue on the path of the greater wind unimpeded, without being side tracked by these little wind gusts. It's the same with meditation. We have a course of the greater wind, and we let the smaller wind-gusts come through without their influence redirecting us. We don't seek them, nor do we resist them. In time, we know which is the real trajectory and which is just wind-gust.

 

As the Yin Talisman Scripture begins: "Observe the Way of Heaven/Sky. Keep it with you in all activities. Persist in this to the very end."

 

Next time you have a song stuck in your head, and you're moving to it's beat and tempo, try observing the clouds, and take their movement as the time-keeper in your pulse. See how they let the little things roll by without effort or disturbance.

 

I tried this the other day, influenced by the opening line of the Yin Talisman Scripture, and so much started to come together in terms of seeing how Taoists learn wisdom from nature.