Yogani On Spinal Breathing And The Microcosmic Orbit

[sean]

Via AYP Forums

 

Hi Snake:

 

In yoga, the energy coming down the front is regarded primarily as biological, and for that reason is handled mainly with physical methods such as jalandhara bandha, dynamic jalandhara/chin pump, kechari and sambhavi. The lower mudras and bandhas are involved on the other end of the cycle -- mulabandha/asvini (root) and uddiyana/nauli/navi (mid-body).

 

Obvously, it is the same neuro-biology occurring in the nervous system whether we are in Taoism, Indian Yoga, or any other system of practices. In yoga, the spinal nerve is given preference on the neurological side going in both directions, particularly with spinal breathing pranayama where there is an awakening and balanced blending of ascending and descending pranic energies in the spinal nerve -- an energy dynamic that is apparently not recognized in the same way in Taoism.

 

The related, but separately regarded "nectar cycle" in yoga is more in line with the Taoist view of the micro-cosmic orbit, with sweet secretions coming down from the brain with the rise of ecstatic conductivity, down through the nasal pharynx, into the digestive system and chest, reprocessed, and cycled back up to the brain again via the spine as a luminous mint-like substance (soma) resulting from "refined digestion" of food & nectar, sexual essenses and air in the GI tract.

 

I believe the Taoists call the digestive aspect of the cycle, "alchemy occurring in the cauldron," so we are most likely talking about the same process. Only one nervous system, with one process of enlightenment going on...

 

So, yoga recognizes the cycle. It just divides it into two overlapping components (biological and neurological) and promotes them with an array of practices known to provide the appropriate stimulation.

 

As they say, "Whatever works!"

 

The guru is in you.

[Yoda]

cool!

[sunshine]

cool!

 

This is a new statement of his, isn't it?

[sean]

Yes, what are your thoughts on it? I think it's a very interesting distinction being made. Between practices leaning more toward neurology and those more toward the biology.

[cloud recluse]

.. I think it's a very interesting distinction being made. Between practices leaning more toward neurology and those more toward the biology.

 

Sean,at the risk of sounding lazy,would you be able to direct me to whichever part of the AYP site elaborates on this distinction ?

 

Regards,Cloud

[sunshine]

Yes, what are your thoughts on it? I think it's a very interesting distinction being made. Between practices leaning more toward neurology and those more toward the biology.

 

Ahhhh. It is just that I have read a discussion about "mixing" AYP practice & Taoist practice and there he was open in admitting that he does not know that much about the Taoist practices. So as it looks he has updated his knowledge which is really cool. I do enjoy this guy very much. Very open, very clear. Nevertheless I do not fully agree with his conclusion. Maybe on a higher level/other level he is right... but the "usual" microcosmic orbit sure is not made up of the "nectar cycle"... in front there is not just the "biological" system as termed by him... there is clearly a developed "neurological" system in the front part...

further some Taoist schools seem to know and utilize BOTH direction in the back...

 

There is another point he was sharing that he admits is purely "subjective" feelingwise... it is the absorbtion of semen through the bladder... again I very much doubt it... no other hints regarding this...

 

whatever: this guy is great!

 

Harry

[sean]

Thanks for your thoughts Harry. I am always so interested in people's thoughts on this Taoism and Yoga bridging. I agree with you there are neurological systems in the front, ie: the belly brain and the heart. But I'm curious, do you think there is as clear of a neurological channel in the front? It seems an argument could be made that the belly brain and heart are profound neurological organs with deep hooks into the spinal cord. Obviously there is an energetic front channel, but Yogani's post has made me curious of it's physiological nature.

 

Sean

[sunshine]

Thanks for your thoughts Harry. I am always so interested in people's thoughts on this Taoism and Yoga bridging. I agree with you there are neurological systems in the front, ie: the belly brain and the heart. But I'm curious, do you think there is as clear of a neurological channel in the front? It seems an argument could be made that the belly brain and heart are profound neurological organs with deep hooks into the spinal cord. Obviously there is an energetic front channel, but Yogani's post has made me curious of it's physiological nature.

 

Sean

 

I still try to "build" the bridges myself, Sean, and yet haven't understood many aspects... One could have the idea that to a certain extent the "front channel" has as physical correlate the vagus-nerve.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

 

The other idea would be that there is specific cell-to-cell comunication on the electrochemical level going on in the front.

 

Yogani's thoughts are cool. I would not say that they are "far from possible", just that I believe it is not the secretions that make up the front-channel in the "basic levels"...

 

with Smiles

 

Harry

[tumoessence]

I am the Bill that has posted an observation the in this ayp thread and I wanted to get Yogani's

further comments and asked him in an email if he would comment on my post. He did so in an email to me. I'll ask him if he minds if I post it here. I am sure he won't but just to observe the protocol I will ask.

Bill

[sean]

Harry, thanks for the information on the vagus nerve. That could the neural equivalent of a front channel. But does it reach all the way to the perineum? Your latter idea about electrochemical communication cell-to-cell is more what I was thinking though and you can see how this sort of communication might fit into more of a biological classification than the clearly neurological significance of the back, spinal channel.

 

This topic has inspired me to alter my twice daily spinal breathing practice for the last week or so to include the front channel. But I did not want to lose the value of doubling back on the spinal nerve, so I created a sort of ping pong table out of the MCO. Here is an animation I created to illustrate.

 

 

I call it, the The Microcosmic Pendulum My experience so far is that going up and down the front channel like this is very soothing. I'm already noticing a cooling, emotionally softening effect. Another report in a few weeks.

 

Bill, did Yogani give you permission to post his response to you? I'm curious.

 

Sean

[sunshine]

Hi Sean,

 

I myself tend to do some "microcosmic" orbit following the Yogani spinal breathing technique... I was told that if one opens the back channel without working on the front channel it later might get difficult to bring the energy down at the front... so I better be on the safe side...

 

Microcosmic Pendulum What a great term. I asssume future generation of practitioners will get back to it often!!!

 

 

By the way: Are you actually cutting this tongue thingy for getting up to your brain?

 

regarding the vagus:

 

No. It does not get to the perineum... it reaches more the "abdominal organs"...

 

so actually: if one has a look on a picture http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus793.html

 

it could even be more an equivalent to the so-called "central meridian"...

 

regarding your conclusion that the "front channel" might be more "biological" compared to the clear neurological correlate in the back:

 

Well. I was just saying that I consider the Nectar cycle, Yogani mentions, not to be the equivalent of the usual microcosmic orbit. What he describes to me seems to be a more "hormonal secretion" cycle (although I as yet know too little about it)... while what I mean by electrochemical is what lets the heart contract in conjunction:

there are nerves transmitting the stimulus and then between the muscle cells a process of electrochemical communciation starts from "cell to cell" that leads to the "domino-effect" (no scientific term in that regard) of the contracting muscle cells...this is not "hormone" process...

 

with Smiles

 

Harry

[sean]

Hahah! I'm glad you like the pendulum. No, I'm not cutting my tongue yet. Not quite sure about that part of AYP yet, we'll see. Nice pic of the vagus, at that angle is does see more like the central channel. Interesting thoughts re: "hormonal secretion" cycle. This bridging is such a fun mystery!

 

cloud, sorry I missed your request there, here is a link to the post on AYP - spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit

 

Ok, Bill, tumoessence, sent me his correspondence with Yogani on this issue for further thoughts:

 

From: Bill

To: Yogani

Subject: forum comment -- "down the front"

 

Hello Yogani,

 

I have made a comment in the pranayama section of the forum that I hope you could comment on if you have the time. It is in the section comparing spinal breathing to the Taoist microcosmic orbit. In your post you charactorized the descent down the front of the body as a biological phase in contrast to the spinal nerve which is neurological. Does that mean that as a biological process that the descending front channel in the MO should just be allowed to happen rather than intentionally practiced? In my post I didn't pose this as a question, in fact I may have answered my own thoughts but I was actually hoping for your thoughts. I have practiced Chia's path in the past a long time ago, and I find that ayp is more fulfilling for me and I thank you for that.

 

Best Wishes,

Bill

 

 

From: Yogani

To: Bill

Subject: Re: forum comment -- "down the front"

 

Hi Bill

 

I think the distinction between yoga and taoism on "down the front" is more method-related than in terms of understanding of the process itself. The neurobiology is what it is.

 

As mentioned in my post, in yoga, the methods are largely physical in the form of mudras and bandhas, and there can be no mistake that the cause and effect being applied is intentional. There is "intention" involved in mudras and bandhas, including direct references to energy coming down the front (particularly into the heart) in some yoga traditions. So there is no waiting for the "down the front" to happen in relation to the step-by-step sequencing of adding the mudras and bandhas. I am sure there is a similar phase-in with taoist methods. So both are intentional. It is just a matter of method and style.

 

I also did taoist methods many years ago, but ended up sticking with my yoga roots, and expanding on them, because the coverage was more complete in terms of meditation, samyama and other methods. Which is not to say taoism is not a complete system. It was just not as accessible and clear on both sides of the enlightenment equation at the time (cultivating both inner silence and ecstatic energy/conductivity). As we know, taoism is (rightly or wrongly) regarded as primarily and energy-oriented system. I do believe it is more developed deeper within its lineages.

 

My goal has always been to find complete, efficient and do-able methods covering all the spiritual capabilities in the nervous system as mirrored in the eight limbs of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and that is why AYP is what it is. Perhaps someone will come along and reveal the full scope of taoist methods in a balanced way that everyone can understand and use, if they have not already. I would welcome it from any tradition. This is the age of applied spiritual science!

 

So, we don't have to wait for anything to happen "down the front," within the bounds of effective practices, including prudent self-pacing for maximum progress with comfort and safety. And, as I always say, it is the practitioner's choice on what system of practices to use. Reminder: Overlapping different systems of practice is always tricky, and that is why you do not see much of it in AYP - but we do honor all effective approaches.

 

It was interesting to read in your post that some taoist systems of practice include spinal breathing up and down the spinal nerve. It goes to show that the truth is the same everywhere... :-)

 

All the best!

 

The guru is in you.

Yogani

http://www.aypsite.com

[三江源]

I remember that reversing the traditional 'up the back and down the front ' microcosmic breathing is a cooling excercise, and refines the yang and energises the yin. Mixing the directions is pleasantly fluent. It's a nice excercise.

 

If you flip from that into breathing via the ming men, it's a short skip to whole body breathing and a potential easy relaxed meditation.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

This topic has inspired me to alter my twice daily spinal breathing practice for the last week or so to include the front channel. But I did not want to lose the value of doubling back on the spinal nerve, so I created a sort of ping pong table out of the MCO..

 

I call it, the The Microcosmic Pendulum My experience so far is that going up and down the front channel like this is very soothing. I'm already noticing a cooling, emotionally softening effect. Another report in a few weeks.

 

Would this technique be accesible to a beginner ? I mean,if i were to use the pendulum at the very start,in the lesson where Yogani first introduces spinal breathing,could the cooling effect help with the headache spinal breathing seems to give me.

 

Regads,Cloud

[freeform]

Dude, I'd stop spinal breathing for a while if you're getting headaches! There could be two reasons for it - you're over-breathing, sending your blood pressure up and hyper ventilating, or you're sending too much energy to your head without successfully bringing it down. (ofcourse it could be anything else - I'm hardly a trained doctor or even yogi - so dont listen to me!)

 

If you're over breathing, make sure that you breathe out for longer than you breathe in, dont hold your breath at any point and use your belly (and lower back) for the inhale.

 

If it's energy stuck in the head, then there are a couple of things you could do... rotate your ankles and massage the bottom of your feet... then stand up and do a couple of heel drops (I explained it in the somewhat recent shaking thread). Also, if you have a potential assistant, get them to connect with your chi, and move their hands up and down the spine in time with your breathing.

 

I personally do the Microcosmic Orbit.... paying special attention to the front channel.... HT recognises spinal breathing - although not the same method as yogani... I just tend to fill my spine with energy before doing the spine based Intu Flow drills. After which I bring the energy down the front and leave it in my LTT.

 

Dont do the pendulum before getting used to normal spinal breathing. And dont continue spinal breathing, if after the adjustments above, you still get pressure in your head... go to an accupuncturist or something... I would work on your front channel - but you're not going that way, right?

 

good luck!

[cloud recluse]

Dude, I'd stop spinal breathing for a while if you're getting headaches!..

Freeform;

 

Dont worry,I stopped the spinal breathing a while back.But unfortunately the headaches continued

 

But the thing is I would really like to reattempt something along those lines reasonably soon,thus my inquiries here.Especially as I have what looks like several months of free time & solitude coming up.So Im considering a few options.Yogani is one,& Ken Cohens new 100 day course is another.

 

Right now,Im happy to just Sit,along with some 8 Brocade & Tai Ji basics. I also intend to go through with a further TCM from my Tai Ji teacher ,basically cupping & massage,which allrerady seems to have taken the edge off things

 

But I am heeding the advice youve provided,its the kind of info I want at my fingertips over the next several months.Thankyou very much for your response.

 

Regards,Cloud

[freeform]

unfortunately the headaches continued

 

well - it may be something random like blocked sinuses or dehydration which 80% of us are suffering (drink a lot of water with lemon juice, a bit of honey and some good quality (grey if possible) seasalt - it should be slightly warm or at least room temperature.) If it is stuck energy - shaking and the heel drop shold get it moving down to your feet.

 

But the thing is I would really like to reattempt something along those lines reasonably soon,thus my inquiries here.Especially as I have what looks like several months of free time & solitude coming up.So Im considering a few options.Yogani is one,& Ken Cohens new 100 day course is another.

 

Ken Cohen is great. His videos and cds are generally very thorough and he seems to take great care to lead the viewer gently through all the necessary steps. I doubt you'd be doing anything too grand like spinal breathing from the start - he'll probably first help you train your awareness to actually feel chi and then connect with it and eventually direct it...

 

You can always combine I AM meditation with what Cohen teaches (in fact that could really help you along), but I wouldn't do the energetic practices from Yogani at least untill after you've done the basics with Cohen.

 

This is all completely my personal, and not very experienced advice (I've not done Yogani's practices for any length of time).

 

Oh and by the way - if you have a friend who is interested, get them involved! there are many benefits to that.

[MASTERforge]

Hi,

 

I got interested in reading your post about Microcosmic breathing because I practice tai chi and have been using the book QiGong Meditation Embryonic breathing by Yang, Jwing-Ming. In the book it mentions microcosmic breathing and small and grand circulation breathing.

 

I think Microcosmic breathing is an advance on embryonic breathing. I certainly didnt know that people practiced it and it sounds like you are having good results. Has anyone practiced embryonic breathing?

 

From reading your posts its clear many are advanced in meditation practice. I am just a beginner and try to put in an hour a day. Hopefully I can share experiences with you in the future.

 

Leigh Robinson

[sean]

Hey Cloud, did you start Yogani's stuff in order with iam? I think he recommends doing iam meditation every day, morning and night, for twenty minutes until you feel really stable and comfortable with it before adding spinal breathing. This could take six months, who knows, no rush. Then just start with 5 minutes of spinal breathing and, again, hang with it. Oh, and do what I do, whenever you get just a little bored, make sure you skip way ahead and add three or four of the most advanced high energy practices at once and, why not, double the recommended times and pooh pooh those silly warnings as your inner heat and pressure gradually percolate into overt irritability and your finances start bottoming out.

[Yoda]

Sean,

 

Sadly, I've put my kechari project on ice. But it's like Daddy's car just sitting there and he won't come home for awhile... and sitting on that phone book and start cruising... I got caught then too! It is fun!

 

Masterforge,

 

Welcome to taobums... that's a totally shweet sword you got there!!

 

-Yoda

[Helder]

If it's energy stuck in the head, then there are a couple of things you could do... rotate your ankles and massage the bottom of your feet... then stand up and do a couple of heel drops (I explained it in the somewhat recent shaking thread). Also, if you have a potential assistant, get them to connect with your chi, and move their hands up and down the spine in time with your breathing.

 

Hi,

 

Freeform, could you please explain how to do the "heel drops"? I could not find it anywhere.

 

I am interested in grounding as well, as I do too seem to have a tendency to have energy stuck in my head and also have some difficulties with spinal breathing (so I am concentrating solely on the I AM meditation for a while now). Yes, I follow AYP

 

Thanks a lot.

[markern]

I\ve tried I AM meditation a couple of times and to me it seems like it creates one current of energy going from muladhara and up the back and one going from the third eye and down the front. This is purely by reciting the mantra not from any intention I have.

[gendao]

You can always combine I AM meditation with what Cohen teaches (in fact that could really help you along), but I wouldn't do the energetic practices from Yogani at least untill after you've done the basics with Cohen.

What's I AM meditation?

 

The one that Amma teaches?

[markern]

What's I AM meditation?

 

The one that Amma teaches?

 

It is the one that yoganiat AYP teaches. It is very very powerfull but aparently safe. The mantra is "I AM"