How you apply Buddhism in life

[xabir2005]

Split off from http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20464-i-see-people-are-still-misleading-each-other-on-buddhism/ as I think this deserves a separate thread.

 

You make buddhism appear to me as if it is to find out who is right, rather than what

a layman can do. The rules are OK but how you use it in your daily life?

 

I want see how it changed your life, you apply the rule in relationship

with others with the world, things you do different because you learning Buddhism. Everone can say that there is suffering and if you do the right things

you will get less suffering.

 

In the Duke of Mountain Deer the Father of the Emperor became a buddhist monk to atone his sins of slaying. The Emperor listen to his father

to never raise the tax in his lifetime since the commoner already suffer enough.

 

Or read about Ashoka "have been of a wicked nature and bad temper"

and how he changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka

 

What are you stories or you just read buddhism and see how other do buddhism?

[deci belle]

Why do you post this, xabir? Was Friend addressing you in the comments you have just posted?

[Lucky7Strikes]

IMO what friend wrote here is more significant than a mere, "being patient will help you not get overly stressed in traffic." It has to do with our purpose behind cultivation. The Buddha' teachings range from alleviating suffering in day to day life, to attaining complete omniscience. So this inquiry is very wide in scope.

 

We argue constantly about Buddhist doctrine here. The language, terms, and approaches, there are probably hundreds of variations of them that may transform the way we live. Yet, in studying these doctrines I sometimes forget that there should be something attained from all of this, that who's right and who's wrong about what the Buddha said, what "emptiness" means, what is d.o. on and on don't really matter that much.

 

We should always re examine the effects of these spiritual practices on our lives. The terms are just to give your mind new avenues for considering reality and experience. But this can be achieved from anywhere, and Buddhism is nothing more than a tiny fraction of the potential pools of knowledge you can draw from. I've had deep insights into improving my life from social experiences and hobbies that were much more effective than any passage from a sutra or a meditation session. To believe in your ideas or "variation" above all else is just bullshitting yourself, another ego trip, or an insecure way to legitimize yourself.

 

Each and everyone's paths is different. I don't consider this statement lightly as if it's from a fortune cookie wrapper. It's really a very difficult idea to accept, that we each have different modes of improving towards greater happiness or fulfilling our purposes. It gets rid of any pretentious notion of "doctrine" or hierarchies among individuals and brings it down to a very practical level, as in, how does this help you, did this idea appeal to you, has it served your needs...

 

So for a long time I went about it in an unnecessarily complicated way, as witnessed by bums on these 20+ page threads. The attainments from understanding emptiness or realizing luminosity and what not are, imo, not at all that special as it's made out to be (it's really just relative). For instance, I would ask Xabir if he, since he believes that he has realized emptiness, can transcend death with certainty, as if he has now learned to drive a car. Or know that he would be able to keep his wisdom with an onset of dementia or a next life, or know where he will be in that time. And the answer to these is a likely no, he can only assume from the written words.

 

Realizing emptiness may unbind you from obsessive thoughts and get rid of a lot of needless suffering stemming from clinging. That is a very tangible practical benefit. But let's say a grave difficulty overcomes your life and there is tremendous suffering, I don't know, like getting sold to slavery, or thrown into war, or enduring a famine. What the realization of emptiness will do is likely alleviate the mental anguish to a point, but there will still be great suffering. It may be slightly more bearable. But because the practitioner is only shielded by his mental capacities, his powerlessness and the onslaught of suffering will not cease. Sure, the sheer patience, peaceful, and unattached mind will help a person endure through these storms bit by bit. But that is a slow process and not even a guaranteed one. We are always on the verge of being a full victim to life's circumstances with our mental capacity only thinly protected.

 

I guess it really comes down to power. And power is most practical.

 

From what I have seen on the forum here on these Buddhist discussions, the benefits are made to sound much more grandiose, if not misleading, than they really are. The worse aspect I notice is that the concentration on doctrine is limiting. They narrow it down to a term, a single idea to be understood and realized, when it's not anything like that at all. IME, it's a continuous flow of refinement and expansion. The realizations are little bumps of knowledge and to treat them as truths that have been understood is to suddenly put a cage around your potential for growth. You've already set a boundary to something that you have no idea where begins or ends.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Ambrose_Bierce]

Personally, I use Metta.

 

If you feel good feelings twords people and send positive and compassionate vibrations to everyone it really becomes a profound experience.

 

So, if you are here on this forum most likely you are recieveing it. I wish happiness for everyone.

[C T]

I think on occasion i tend to forget that buddhist teachings are nothing more than seeds to be sown in the mindstream. They are not the fruits of realization, and i am sure most, if not all the buddhists here know that for a fact. The potential for hindrance will show if we assume the teachings can be anything other than methods and means. The Buddha himself said so.

 

The process of engaging with the teachings can be a tedious one. It takes the practitioner down innumerable avenues which are pregnant with hopes and fears, disappointment after disappointment, and heartache after heartache. But the truth, i think, is that even if one does not engage with the teachings, such meetings with the hardships of life is still quite inevitable for the general population of beings ~ beings here include all beings in all classes of this so-called existence. In this instance, i feel it seems more reasonable to create some sort of premise of navigation which can make the journey a little less daunting.

 

Just imagine for a moment drifting down a raging river with no support whatsoever, and then suddenly a raft comes along and we quickly grab on to it, no matter how rickety it may be ~ finding this raft does not suddenly calm the raging river, but in a moment of jubilation, the drifter (me) could disassociate with the immense challenges of the immediate situation, and with the aid of this raft, find that there is a better chance of navigating to safety.

 

A momentary comforting space is sometimes all we need to transform or release the knots we have tied around ourselves. Fortunately nature provides us with ample gifts of rafts, but sometimes, without having habitually sown the appropriate seeds, the possibility of not being able to recognize these rafts when they present themselves become greater than if we have had maintained an ongoing conceptual understanding of what the rafts look like in the first place. If we do not do this, then sometimes we mistake other things that float by to be rafts, and this could mean the difference in reaching the farthest shores or simply getting caught in more debris than necessary.

 

An obvious problem arise when people assume too much and place false expectations on themselves and the teachings when they begin to take Buddhism to the level of practice pass the stage of philosophical understandings. Practice here means actually developing a correct understanding (Right View) of what a raft actually is, and how to use it practically and appropriately. Nothing more. To assign any other premise to this, like making assumptions that the raft is the shore, or its made of gold and has four engines that provide a thousand siddhis, is to once again fall into a despondent position where one gets trapped within the cycle of clinging and aversion, hopes and fears, over and over.

 

To conclude, i would say that the Buddhist teachings for me represents the most conclusive blueprint of what actually this raft looks like. Its up to me then to recognize what it is when it presents itself as i bop along on this raging river of life. It would be total folly if i make the mistake of thinking that i can actually sit on the blueprint instead of the raft.

 

 

 

"It is not important whether you walk on water or walk in space. The true miracle is to walk on earth." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh

Edited September 11, 2011 by CowTao

[Jetsun]

After studying Buddhism for many years I have come to the conclusion that to get any mental realisations that you might have had to really permeate your entire being and open your heart you need to become so dedicated that you are prepared to go into retreat for many months or even years at a time for the teachings to be fully realised. I get the impression that the Buddhists here have some strong mental understanding yet I doubt it's been deeply realised yet. For example someone like the Dalai Lama can debate about the philosophical intricacies of Nargarjuna as well as anyone but he says he hasn't spent enough time in solitary retreat even though he spends a few months of the year in retreat and has done longer retreats in the past, it's still not enough; while there are people here on this website who think they get it all despite the longest time they have spent in practice was a week long workshop and a few weekends here and there.

 

Personally I have not been able to go on any long retreats so the hundreds of books and sutas I have contemplated have not bloomed into much in my life yet except maybe a generally more compassionate attitude towards a few things.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I think on occasion i tend to forget that buddhist teachings are nothing more than seeds to be sown in the mindstream. They are...

I think this is a good way to think about cultivation, as a raft to help you along a raging river. But I disagree that there is a safety on the other shore, and this is where the metaphor seems a little inadequate.

 

Once you have secured a raft, the most stable one possible, where to then? How will you know where the raft is headed or where to steer it? Will you be on it as the endless river pushes you back and forth at its whim?

 

I believe there is no such doctrine that can be this theoretical raft that can protect one forever. Right view by itself is a very gradual path, it's more like a compass than a raft. It shows you a brief glimpse for the direction you are going. But let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have right view it does not calm the waves and is only a slight guide to the direction you might see yourself headed in. You have just become better at withstanding the storm.

[Lucky7Strikes]

After studying Buddhism for many years I have come to the conclusion that to get any mental realisations that you might have had to really permeate your entire being and open your heart you need to become so dedicated that you are prepared to go into retreat for many months or even years at a time for the teachings to be fully realised. I get the impression that the Buddhists here have some strong mental understanding yet I doubt it's been deeply realised yet. For example someone like the Dalai Lama can debate about the philosophical intricacies of Nargarjuna as well as anyone but he says he hasn't spent enough time in solitary retreat even though he spends a few months of the year in retreat and has done longer retreats in the past, it's still not enough; while there are people here on this website who think they get it all despite the longest time they have spent in practice was a week long workshop and a few weekends here and there.

 

Personally I have not been able to go on any long retreats so the hundreds of books and sutas I have contemplated have not bloomed into much in my life yet except maybe a generally more compassionate attitude towards a few things.

Yes I agree. The extent of realization has far reaching applications than some people seem to think here. And I admit I used to think in those lines, that to just "get it" was enough. But the conceptual understanding or any idea of understanding is really just entry ways that let us dig deeper into our being and layers of underlying energies. And here, effort is necessary in the process of purification.

 

It is so easy to think "I get it" because of the nature of some of these teachings. Such as "remaining in the natural state," "being effortless," "non-doing," "you are already enlightened," "everything is already emptiness and nirvana." Although these understandings are adequate in gradually transforming our lives, the depth of their effect depends largely on how willing you are to transform your inner fixations and habitual trappings. The paradox is that such ideas can become easy comfort cushions one returns to in order to avoid exploring one's physical, energetic, and mental depths.

 

I see this in a lot of non-duality teachers and Buddhist practitioners. They say all else is just mental clinging. Chop wood, carry water. IMO, this is confusing the method for being the destination because the relief it offers from the day to day trouble of life. But don't tell me that for such a person facing death, he has escaped the "cycle" or become an "immortal" or such things. Yes, the experience will be much more smooth and accepted, but so is morphine for that matter. To believe that your wisdom here can carry you further into existence after death (if you truly know that there is such a thing in the first place) is mere faith to some of these realized arm chair masters.

 

Just because you have understood emptiness does not mean that tomorrow someone will hand you a ticket to "no-rebirth." From my perspective, that's nothing more than a fantasy, like if you understand emptiness someone will bring you to a train station to the gates of non returners. If you have not directly realize how you have been born to this plane you sure will not be able to guide yourself out of it or through it with your own intentions.

 

I believe that here Taoism is more upfront than Buddhism. The results are tangible. If you have transcended the samsaric cycle or become an immortal the attitude is a "show me" attitude. I get tired of people saying, "oh that's another clinging that brings you suffering." That's why methods in Taoism and esoteric practices are more appealing to me these days than philosophical right view stuff. Yes, they are important, but the realizations come through meditation anyway. There never really is a need to overly fixate oneself on them because just as compassion is a natural development, so is wisdom as you dig deeper into self introspection and meditation and energy practice. All the stuff about "trappings to esoteric practices like the MCO or whatever" is just overstated.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[Bubbles]

I didn't know Buddhism was a technique to be applied.It sounds artificial.

Edited September 11, 2011 by bubbles

[doc benway]

I think on occasion i tend to forget that buddhist teachings are nothing more than seeds to be sown in the mindstream.

 

 

I didn't know Buddhism was a technique to be applied.It sounds artificial.

 

Such an important point. Buddhism for me is completely experiential, not unlike Daoist meditative practices.

To transform Buddhism to an analytical and intellectual exercise may be appealing and even addictive in a way, but it does not seem to be the original intention and, at least in my life, that is not where the value is.

 

What is artificial, IMO, is to use words and concepts to try and explain the nature of Reality.

Words and concepts are too limited for this.

Buddhism, IMO, is a path to walk, a way to be, not an explanation for how things are.

Putting into practice the principles has transformed my life, my work, my relationships.

It's made me a better human being and has made this existence less painful.

 

Some concrete examples:

- After years of being frustrated with my job, I came to realize that I truly am blessed with "right" livelihood and it was transformative

- I actively attempt to practice other aspects of the eightfold path ( right speech, concentration, mindfulness, action) and, when I am successful in doing so, I encounter less confrontation and invariably feel better about how I chose to act

 

But I will qualify all this by stating unequivocally that I do not consider myself a Buddhist (or any other -ist, for that matter). I study a variety of things and I've found a great deal of common ground in multiple spiritual traditions on which to build my own understanding.

[Bubbles]

Hi Steve

 

I resonate with your post. _/\_ I come from Zen. Buddhism for me is understanding (and) sitting (shikantaza) (and) living accordingly. Texts and doctrines are beautiful but experiential understanding is all. No substitute for this.

 

edited for adding words in italic

Edited September 11, 2011 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

just a few more words

 

techniques are good and needed when you cook, do odd jobs, play basketball etc.. But when I'll got Alzheimer, all my techniques will leave me and I will end up with my bare life. If Buddhism is a technique to be applied it still has not touched the core of my being. I can show my Buddhist membership card but what a lie!

 

My 2bananas

 

edit for spelling

Edited September 11, 2011 by bubbles

[Lucky7Strikes]

What you're saying in that post and in the current post has to do more with meditative accomplishment.

In a crude sense, you can view everything in these terms, goal, accomplishment. This is unattractive from the point of view of spirituality, but one shouldn't deny the role of purpose in cultivation. How you approach it is another story.

 

"All the stuff about "trappings to esoteric practices like the MCO or whatever" is just overstated."

 

I think that doing these practices is very helpful, but I have seen in real life and read from this board how esoteric practices can potentially lead one away from the target of bodhi, and down byroads. So I think that without the proper mindset when doing these sorts of practices they can lead to certain trappings.

In my experience, you won't progress so far if you do not have the proper mindset. So at worst you may become addicted to bliss states and so on, but my view is that these problems sort themselves out easier than people assume. Your mind will want to move on and search for wisdom. And wisdom and proper insight will feed your practice in a positive cycle. The true danger is in rigid conceptuality, and this includes emptiness teachings, or non-action teachings. They can greatly hinder progress by giving the practitioner a false sense of having arrived at some imagined goal, that he is now enlightened because of insight. So it becomes a crutch or really slows down your potential.

 

From my experience of deepening insight...it will not change your karma. You will still have to endure life's pains according to your karma. What it does do for you though is give a more clear outlook in order to deal with the shit that life throws at you. From this calm, you can then better deal with, endure and better figure out how to solve or deal with life's circumstances and dealing with the world in general.

I think it depends on how one views karma. Whether as a mystical force behind occurrences or chains of actions depending on your immediate reactions. It's probably a bit of both, as you wrote above. Your type of patient and thoughtful reaction will cease the chain of negative karmic reaction that could have been set to motion. But along with insight one should also develop skillful means to deal with negative karmic forces. This is what healers, teachers, and the generally virtuous members of society do. They have influence over how events can turn out, not just how to cope with them when shit comes your way, you can bear it better by remaining in detached, spontaneous, natural states as spoken in non-dual traditions.

 

In Mahayana Buddhism, there is no such thing as a permament resting place or no-rebirth. Being that there is ultimately no where to go in the universe. This is one of the things that seperates it from Hinayana. Though if you get far enough in your meditaion you could be reborn in higher realms; or if you believe in the possibility of being reborn in an pureland in order to finish your cultivation than that's something you could do upon your death. Of course if you don't manage to achieve enlightenment while living there's always the bardo practices in order to realize it upon death or in the bardo state, from which I've read, you choose where to be reborn.

What I meant by that example is that the ability to escape cyclical and unwanted birth and pains associated with it is exactly that: ability. As you wrote that "if you get far enough in meditation you can be reborn in higher realms," it seems that no one is going to transport you there by putting a scale on your mind to see if your understanding has depth or not. There seems to be this faith that once you have realized emptiness you will be granted a key to these states of birth.

 

IMO It is all really the development of one's abilities and wisdom to navigate through life and death. It's why everyone here cultivate in the first place and why there is such importance put on realizing the nature of reality. We have to always remember the practical reasons why we practice.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[C T]

I think this is a good way to think about cultivation, as a raft to help you along a raging river. But I disagree that there is a safety on the other shore, and this is where the metaphor seems a little inadequate.

 

Once you have secured a raft, the most stable one possible, where to then? How will you know where the raft is headed or where to steer it? Will you be on it as the endless river pushes you back and forth at its whim?

 

I believe there is no such doctrine that can be this theoretical raft that can protect one forever. Right view by itself is a very gradual path, it's more like a compass than a raft. It shows you a brief glimpse for the direction you are going. But let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have right view it does not calm the waves and is only a slight guide to the direction you might see yourself headed in. You have just become better at withstanding the storm.

If we can learn to see things for exactly what they are, without adding or taking away anything, that to me is Right View.

 

Right View is the first and most vital point.

 

Its not so much about seeing what direction one is headed for, but to have the capacity to understand and view life in a such a way where even if we find ourselves lost, as some of us sometimes experience, with the right attitude, we can have the tenacity and fortitude to strive on even when the chips are down. We will also learn that there will always be more options than dead-ends.

 

You are correct ~ Right View in itself does not calm the waves. What it does is it lets a person have the insight to realize that the raging seas and rivers are subject to calming themselves after each storm, and if the mental preparations are in place to learn from each experience, we will develop the mindful awareness to see each storm as an opportunity to befriend our fears, phobias and aversions. To achieve this, Right View is supported by the other seven spokes of the complete Dharma Wheel.

 

If there is no rain, what's the use of carrying around an opened umbrella? But umbrellas are almost useless in fierce winds, so we learn to close the umbrella and seek for appropriate shelter. Its very simple to practice Right View really. It helps one to recognize and implement the correct antidote for each specific circumstance. This is very crucial... the same antidote can turn out be poison when applied without proper knowledge and diagnosis. In the same way, if a person is happy and fulfilled, then of what use is a wish-fulfilling gem?

 

Sometimes though, we need to recognize the signs of when a storm is brewing, and how best to prepare ourselves. That alone gives us a leading edge in tackling life's challenges. It reduces the overwhelming factors that tend to deflate others who happen to be less well-prepared. In short, thru cultivating the correct way of seeing things, the odds of being taken by surprise are reduced greatly.

 

With minimal surprises as we navigate thru life, ease will permeate the being naturally.

 

With habitual tasting of the state of ease, slowly, one will forget tensions and anxieties.

 

As tensions and anxieties diminish, so will primordial fears of old age, sickness and death be reduced.

 

If we were to take this sequence to its logical conclusion, we will eventually find the serenity and calm, desirable states which dispels all obstacles to wisdom, which is the prerequisite to attaining continuous insights into the unending recognition of the natural state of self-liberation.

 

Even if liberation does not result as one comes to death's door, at the very least, we will obtain a favorable re-birth.

[konchog uma]

[deci belle]

Well, what wonderful discussion! I can't see that anything at all changes because of practicing Bodhi.

Edited September 12, 2011 by deci belle

[xabir2005]

 

My experience has been different: I came to Buddhism skeptical and previously abhorring the teachings altogether. The teachings have helped me to let go more and more and really experience reality free from extremes, attachment, or clinging. Looking at how my experiences have deepened in terms of the four yogas of mahamudra; it always entailed some sort of letting go and really experiencing freedom from some previous fetters that was preventing me from understanding the nature of things and really living life without concepts to truly arrive at "being-as-is." So for me it hasn't become some sort of crutch or something that I rigidly hold onto since this defeats the whole purpose of the path which entails "letting go." I have found that as the experiences progressed deeper I realized that I was never really seperated from this state to begin with

and that the defilements and obscurations are adventitious in a way, in that there was nothing really keeping me from knowing this state other than the result of previous attachment to things and obscurations. Mahamudra and dzogchen say that the ground, path, and fruition are really the same (the difference being on how "purified" the mindstream is of defilements with Buddhahood being the fuition where all the qualities of the three buddha-bodies have been fully developed.)

Nice.

 

The Buddha's teachings is precisely for letting go of the 'doctrine of self', i.e. the doctrine of inherent existence, the view of the extremes.

 

And it is only through applying Buddha's teachings in this way that we can hope to gain liberation.

 

It does not posit something to cling to, definitely not 'emptiness'.

 

Buddha: "Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir."

 

Namdrol: "In other words, right view is the beginning of the noble path. It is certainly the case that dependent origination is "correct view"; when one analyzes a bit deeper, one discovers that in the case "view" means being free from views. The teaching of dependent origination is what permits this freedom from views."

Edited September 12, 2011 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

My experience has been different: I came to Buddhism skeptical and previously abhorring the teachings altogether. The teachings have helped me to let go more and more and really experience reality free from extremes, attachment, or clinging. Looking at how my experiences have deepened in terms of the four yogas of mahamudra; it always entailed some sort of letting go and really experiencing freedom from some previous fetters that was preventing me from understanding the nature of things and really living life without concepts to truly arrive at "being-as-is." So for me it hasn't become some sort of crutch or something that I rigidly hold onto since this defeats the whole purpose of the path which entails "letting go." I have found that as the experiences progressed deeper I realized that I was never really seperated from this state to begin with

and that the defilements and obscurations are adventitious in a way, in that there was nothing really keeping me from knowing this state other than the result of previous attachment to things and obscurations. Mahamudra and dzogchen say that the ground, path, and fruition are really the same (the difference being on how "purified" the mindstream is of defilements with Buddhahood being the fuition where all the qualities of the three buddha-bodies have been fully developed.)

I think this state can become stagnant in the understanding of "as-is" ness, the suchness the experience brings. It can lead to complacency, the concept of non-clinging and letting go. It is wonderful when seen from the transition from neurotic and obsessive states of mind in the past, but to understand this as the finality of realization can become a limiting factor. One may sit in shikantaza all life and float along with the current, which is not what one should aspire to.

 

In the Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions, the naturalness of mind is emphasized, but we must remember that the other half of these traditions are esoteric yogic practices that is beyond mind practices. This is where the practicality of all this should really be taken into account, and one should be very honest as to whether he/she has indeed transcended cyclical life and death, whether or not one has surely developed that ability and not reside in some faith. Cultivation in these traditions are much more than having a peaceful mind in this life.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

Nice.

 

The Buddha's teachings is precisely for letting go of the 'doctrine of self', i.e. the doctrine of inherent existence, the view of the extremes.

 

And it is only through applying Buddha's teachings in this way that we can hope to gain liberation.

Liberation from what?

 

Mental suffering? You can attain liberation from mental suffering by setting up a comfortable living standard and indulging in the senses moderately. Having a good partner, a nice hobby, stable home, and faith in some sort of comfortable afterlife or even an acceptance of no after life.

 

You don't need to go into spirituality in order to do this. I find a lot of spiritual traditions who impose mental suffering, the "you can only be truly happy if you believe in this" attitude to be bullshit. You don't need no-self or whatever.

 

If it is from rebirth and the samsaric cycle I want to ask you if Thusness can truly say he has been freed from it. Or whether even if he can directly see how he has come to exist in this life, and where he sees him going after death. Or is his conviction, and also yours likely, merely rooted in the suttas?

Edited September 12, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

Liberation from what?

 

Mental suffering? You can attain liberation from mental suffering by setting up a comfortable living standard and indulging in the senses moderately. Having a good partner, a nice hobby, stable home, and faith in some sort of comfortable afterlife or even an acceptance of no after life.

 

You don't need to go into spirituality in order to do this. I find a lot of spiritual traditions who impose mental suffering, the "you can only be truly happy if you believe in this" attitude to be bullshit. You don't need no-self or whatever.

Oh of course, you can be reborn as a deva and enjoy all you like, but that is not the same as overcoming all afflictions and attachments and the cycle of birth and death.

 

Thats why dharma is not just for a result of this life.

Whoever is attached to a result for this life, is not a Dharma person.

 

The purpose of Dharma is liberation, not feeling better in this life. The purpose of Dharma is not the cultivation of mundane compassion, and so on.

 

The purpose of Dharma is to control afflictions, then overcome them, and finally, to attain a state of total omniscience and freedom.

 

~ Loppon Namdrol

To see whether you have transformed, just see if are you overcoming your afflictions in daily life? Or are you completely overcome by them?

If it is from rebirth and the samsaric cycle I want to ask you if Thusness can truly say he has been freed from it. Or whether even if he can directly see how he has come to exist in this life, and where he sees him going after death. Or is his conviction, and also yours likely, merely rooted in the suttas?

He never said before, so I can't answer you. If he had I don't think he would tell it to me, and if he had told it to me I don't think I would be 'allowed' to disclose this info.

 

Lord yama* told him in his meditation that he wasn't liberated yet many many years ago (at that time he didn't even know who 'lord yama' is, he heard this name in meditation and found out who that is later), but now I'm not sure as his practice has progressed tremendously since and at one point he told me, self-liberation has become effortless.

 

*In Buddhism the two beings that are often confused with the Christian concept of the devil, Yama and Mara, are also Bodhisattvas. Lord Yama's job is to make sure beings receive the appropriate karmic retribution in the appropriate hell realm. The hell realms as described in Buddhism are not so different from those visualized by Dante in The Inferno. Lord Yama is the Bodhisattva assigned by the Buddhas to rule the ghosts and hell realms, but he must not be thought of as the King of the Ghosts, because he is a Bodhisattva and ghosts are ordinary beings. He resides in the Suyama Heaven, the third heaven of the Desire World. He is also considered a dharma protector and as one of the “Eight Guardians of the Law.” This is why Lord Yama is often shown holding the "wheel of life" with its six realms of existence and the twelve links of dependent origination.

 

Mara, the tempter who is also called the Evil One, has the job of testing living beings to make sure they are progressing on the path. He and his demon followers are emanations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who test those engaged in self-cultivation. He appears in the texts both as a real being (i.e. as a deity who is the King of Demons of the Paranirmita Heaven, the sixth and highest heaven in the desire realm) and as a symbol of everything that hinders the arising of wholesome roots and progress on the path of enlightenment. This includes the internal difficulties encountered by the practitioner. There are four kinds known as the Four Maras: 1) skandha-mara or incorrect view of self; 2) klesha-mara or being overpowered by negative emotions; 3) matyu-mara or death that interrupts the spiritual practice; and 4) devaputra-mara or becoming stuck in the bliss that comes from meditation.

 

Seeing these fearsome beings as bodhisattvas who are really responsible for helping us on our evolutionary path puts the so called "devil" in a very different light.

Edited September 12, 2011 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

Oh of course, you can be reborn as a deva and enjoy all you like, but that is not the same as overcoming all afflictions and attachments and the cycle of birth and death.

 

Thats why dharma is not just for a result of this life.

Whoever is attached to a result for this life, is not a Dharma person.

 

The purpose of Dharma is liberation, not feeling better in this life. The purpose of Dharma is not the cultivation of mundane compassion, and so on.

 

The purpose of Dharma is to control afflictions, then overcome them, and finally, to attain a state of total omniscience and freedom.

 

~ Loppon Namdrol

I would like it better if you did not write so surely of the deva realms or the conditions of such birth. You simply do not know this and have not had experience of rebirth in higher realms. It's only been read about (I presume). IMO all these spiritual ideas should be tangible, and faith, although required to a certain degree, should be limited as much as possible.

 

To see whether you have transformed, just see if are you overcoming your afflictions in daily life? Or are you completely overcome by them?

Although the Buddha's teachings contain a lot about navigating through daily life, the ultimate purpose of the Dharma is not just overcoming daily afflictions, as you quoted by Namdrol. Daily afflictions don't really concern me that much anyway, whether I overcome them or they overcome me seem trivial. I don't think it should for practitioners who are striving for bodhi.

 

He never said before, so I can't answer you. If he had I don't think he would tell it to me, and if he had told it to me I don't think I would be 'allowed' to disclose this info.

 

Lord yama told him in his meditation that he wasn't liberated yet many many years ago (at that time he didn't even know who 'lord yama' is, he heard this name in meditation and found out who that is later), but now I'm not sure as his practice has progressed tremendously since and at one point he told me, self-liberation has become effortless.

Why wouldn't you not be allowed to disclose this info? Isn't it significant to know whether your teacher, and the methods he has given you, does in fact lead you beyond the results of this life?

 

I also don't understand why the Lord Yama telling him whether he is enlightened or not bears any legitimacy to that question. It isn't in my imagination that the Buddha will one day show up and tell me I am enlightened or not. I don't think that makes much sense, like someone handing you a diploma. I don't remember reading about Yama showing up in front of the Buddha to tell him, "ok, I think you are enlightened now."

Edited September 12, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

It may seem trivial to you, but you can't overcome birth and death if you don't overcome afflictions, as rebirth is based on afflictions. You don't overcome suffering if you don't overcome afflictions. Therefore it is of vital importance to someone seeking to overcome birth and death. If you don't think overcoming birth and death is important, then I have nothing to say.

 

Yama and Mara are bodhisattvas who test practitioners and help sentient beings to their liberation. They don't hand out trophies or certificates.

 

But Buddha had to pass Mara's test first before enlightenment. My Taiwanese teacher had the same encounter.

Edited September 12, 2011 by xabir2005