[TTC Study] Chapter 68 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 68

 

John Wu

 

A good soldier is never aggressive;

A good fighter is never angry.

The best way of conquering an enemy

Is to win him over by not antagonizing him.

The best way of employing a man

Is to serve under him.

This is called the virtue of non-striving!

This is called using the abilities of men!

This is called being wedded to Heaven as of old!

 

 

English/Feng

 

A good soldier is not violent.

A good fighter is not angry.

A good winner is not vengeful

A good employer is humble.

This is known as the Virtue of not striving.

This is known as ability to deal with people.

This since ancient times has been known as the ultimate unity with heaven.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Therefore, one who is good at being a warrior doesn't make a show of his might;

One who is good in battle doesn't get angry;

One who is good at defeating the enemy doesn't engage him.

And one who is good at using men places himself below them.

This is called the virtue of not competing;

This is called [correctly] using men;

This is called matching Heaven.

It's the high point of the past.

 

 

 

 

Comments? Questions?

[Marblehead]

Well, yeah, I have a comment. Thanks for asking.

 

I find line 2 very difficult to comply with. We all have emotions. Sometimes we get angry. I think I can honestly say that if someone were trying to kill me I would get angry. In fact, I have gotten angry for lesser actions by others.

[ChiDragon]

Well, yeah, I have a comment. Thanks for asking.

 

I find line 2 very difficult to comply with. We all have emotions. Sometimes we get angry. I think I can honestly say that if someone were trying to kill me I would get angry. In fact, I have gotten angry for lesser actions by others.

 

Well, were you a good fighter....???

Edited September 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

Well, yeah, I have a comment. Thanks for asking.

 

I find line 2 very difficult to comply with. We all have emotions. Sometimes we get angry. I think I can honestly say that if someone were trying to kill me I would get angry. In fact, I have gotten angry for lesser actions by others.

 

Don't you think that anger is something that we strive to transcend? The way of Tao.

 

Also, an angry warrior tends to be wild and sloppy. Much easier to beat.

 

[Marblehead]

Well, were you a good fighter....???

 

Yes I was. I am still alive after 20 years of military service. Yea! for me!!!

[Marblehead]

Don't you think that anger is something that we strive to transcend? The way of Tao.

 

Also, an angry warrior tends to be wild and sloppy. Much easier to beat.

 

 

You are absolutely correct Jeff.

 

And yes, I do have that as a goal in my life.

 

Often times when I wake up in the morning I make myself a promise. I will not allow anyone to screw up my day. Most of the time it works.

 

However, I am an emotional person and I have never tried, nor will I ever, to eliminate my emotions. Sadly, anger is one of our emotions.

 

And I agree, anger will cause us to do irrational things. That is something I do try hard to not do - even when I am angry. I do at least take a moment (almost always) to think at least one thought before I allow my anger to dictate my next action.

 

Yeah, I know, wu wei. So I'm not perfect yet. Big deal. Hehehe.

[Jeff]

You are absolutely correct Jeff.

 

And yes, I do have that as a goal in my life.

 

Often times when I wake up in the morning I make myself a promise. I will not allow anyone to screw up my day. Most of the time it works.

 

However, I am an emotional person and I have never tried, nor will I ever, to eliminate my emotions. Sadly, anger is one of our emotions.

 

And I agree, anger will cause us to do irrational things. That is something I do try hard to not do - even when I am angry. I do at least take a moment (almost always) to think at least one thought before I allow my anger to dictate my next action.

 

Yeah, I know, wu wei. So I'm not perfect yet. Big deal. Hehehe.

 

MH,

 

I am sure that you already know this, but it is not about supressing emotions. It is about "you" being present in the moment. I have found it helpful to "watch myself" when I get angry. When you watch yourself and follow the thoughts, it actually becomes kind of funny. After a while, the anger actually drops (or disappears).

 

Have a good weekend.

 

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 68 - Hold your patience

1. A good commander will not be aggressive.

2. A good warrior is not easily to be agitated.

3. One who is good in winning does not have to encounter with the enemy.

4. One who is good in people management will be humble.

5. It was said to be the virtue of not contending.

6. It was said to be using the talent of others.

7. It was said to be cooperating with Nature.

8. These are the ancient utmost principles.

 

 

第六十八章

1. 善 為 士 者 不 武 ,

2. 善 戰 者 不 怒 ;

3. 善 勝 敵 者 不 與 ,

4. 善 用 人 者 為 之 下 。

5. 是 謂 不 爭 之 德 ,

6. 是 謂 用 人 之 力 。

7. 是 謂 配 天 ,

8. 古 之 極 !

[Jeff]

ChiDragon,

 

Your line 3 translation seems to imply a different focus than the other 3 translations...

 

3. One who is good in winning does not have to encounter with the enemy.

 

The other 3 describe being a good winner. Yours implies not fighting. Could your translation of "encounter" also be something like "follow up" or "pester"?

 

Thanks.

[Marblehead]

MH,

 

I am sure that you already know this, but it is not about supressing emotions. It is about "you" being present in the moment. I have found it helpful to "watch myself" when I get angry. When you watch yourself and follow the thoughts, it actually becomes kind of funny. After a while, the anger actually drops (or disappears).

 

Have a good weekend.

 

 

Yeah. But it normally takes a little while before I can look at my anger and think it was funny.

 

I really don't get angry that often because I am home most of the time and not intercating with other people. On the internet, and especially on this board, I sometimes get irritated but it really doen't turn into anger. You know, kinda' like walking outside bare-footed and stepping on one of those grass seed pods that have the little thorns on them.

 

And I agree. If we are aware of why our emotions flare how and when they do at least when they do come forward we know why it has happened.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 68 - Hold your patience

 

Okay. I actually like your line 2 better than I do the others.

 

Your line 3 was a little clunky but so were the others so maybe the original is clunky. Hehehe.

 

 

Edit

 

Just noticed that Jeff spoke to your line 3. Hehehe.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Marblehead

[Jeff]

Yeah. But it normally takes a little while before I can look at my anger and think it was funny.

 

 

Sorry if I am being annoying... Try to use it for below...

 

When you get angry, try changing your breathing pattern. Maybe even hold your breath. It makes it easier to "catch" it in the moment.

 

[Marblehead]

Sorry if I am being annoying... Try to use it for below...

 

When you get angry, try changing your breathing pattern. Maybe even hold your breath. It makes it easier to "catch" it in the moment.

 

 

Hehehe. You are not being annoying. You are trying to help. I appreciate that and I feel anyone should appreciate someone who is trying to help whether or not we feel their advice is helpful.

 

It will probably be so long before I get angry again I will likely have forgotten the advice. Hehehe.

 

But the anger I do occasionally experience has never gotten me in trouble so it really isn't a problem.

 

Thanks Jeff!

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon,

 

Your line 3 translation seems to imply a different focus than the other 3 translations...

 

3. One who is good in winning does not have to encounter with the enemy.

 

The other 3 describe being a good winner. Yours implies not fighting. Could your translation of "encounter" also be something like "follow up" or "pester"?

 

Thanks.

Yes...!!!

 

"Follow up" or "Pestering" is a good strategy for psychological warfare.

[dawei]

Three Daoist Masters:

 

 

Flowing Hands:

A good soldier is never violent.

A good fighter is always calm.

A good winner is never boastful.

A good employer treats his staff like treasures.

This is known as having insight into the ways of man.

Having insight, is knowing how to deal with people.

Such people reflect the ways of Heaven.

 

Ni:

A good warrior is never violent.

A good fighter is never offensive.

A great victor defeats his opponent, but not by challenging him.

A great commander is humble.

This is called the power of non-contention.

This is also called making use of the effort of others.

To follow this is to follow the pattern of the subtle law of the universe.

 

Liao:

A top gentleman does not depend on martial action.

A superior warrior never fights with rage.

He who always overcomes never confronts.

He who always leads is ever humble.

This is known as the Te of non-confrontation.

This is known as the ability to borrow other's forces.

This is so-called "matching with the power of heaven" that was known since the ancient times.

[ChiDragon]

1. A good warrior is never violent.

2. A good fighter is never offensive.

 

Warriors and fighters do kill; were their actions considered nonviolent or non-offensive...???

[Jeff]

Warriors and fighters do kill; were their actions considered nonviolent or non-offensive...???

 

The perception is in the intent. It is the same point as in the Gita, there is a job to be done (or a part to be played). A lion killing for it's food is non-offensive. Killing for the fun of it (or enjoying it) is offensive.

 

A soldier has a job to do. If you do your job, it is part of the flow of Tao. When you are violent just to be mean (or just to show how good you are) that is where you create separation (or Karma).

 

[Marblehead]

The perception is in the intent. It is the same point as in the Gita, there is a job to be done (or a part to be played). A lion killing for it's food is non-offensive. Killing for the fun of it (or enjoying it) is offensive.

 

A soldier has a job to do. If you do your job, it is part of the flow of Tao. When you are violent just to be mean (or just to show how good you are) that is where you create separation (or Karma).

 

 

That is an excellent response Jeff!

[Eric23]

For whatever it's worth. I think Hendrick's translation of line 1 is the best for me. Do what needs to be done, then move on, period.

[ChiDragon]

The perception is in the intent. It is the same point as in the Gita, there is a job to be done (or a part to be played). A lion killing for it's food is non-offensive. Killing for the fun of it (or enjoying it) is offensive.

 

A soldier has a job to do. If you do your job, it is part of the flow of Tao. When you are violent just to be mean (or just to show how good you are) that is where you create separation (or Karma).

 

 

I can follow your thoughts but I found the analogy is not quite the same. A warrior can be defensive or offensive, either way, killing is considered to be violent. He is not fighting for food as a lion does. Human has mind control and a lion doesn't. A lion killing for food was just a natural instinct, thus I wouldn't even think of it as offensive or non-offensive.

 

From the Tao Te Ching point of view, war cant be avoided, LoaTze was only suggesting to keep the inevitable violence to a minimal.

Edited September 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

I can follow your thoughts but I found the analogy is not quite the same. A warrior can be defensive or offensive, either way, killing is considered to be violent. He is not fighting for food as a lion does. Human has mind control and a lion doesn't. A lion killing for food was just a natural instinct, thus I wouldn't even think of it as offensive or non-offensive.

 

From the Tao Te Ching point of view, war cant be avoided, LoaTze was only suggesting to keep the inevitable violence to a minimal.

 

It depends on your perspective. If you are one with Tao, all existence is a like a play. For LoaTze, if you are "playing your part", no problem, things just happen and everything is perfect as it is. No one "dies" because there really is only Tao.

 

Violence (or suffering) exists when you perceive yourself separate from Tao (ad-libbing your part ). If I kill an ant while stepping on it during a walk, no violence. If I go out of my way to jump on it, violence. Not being conscious, to the ant there is no difference.

 

It is the associated mental attachment to killing that is the violence for LoaTze.

 

MH - thanks for the kind comment.

 

[Jeff]

Do what needs to be done, then move on, period.

 

Good words for life. It is the attachment to the acts that are the killer.