Do we require guidance to reach enlightenment?

Informer · September 15, 2011

Charles Luk-

"Seeing the void as not empty is right and seeing the void as empty is wrong, for failure to return to the (tsu ch'iao) center (which is not empty) prevents the light of vitality from manifesting. Under the heart and above the genital organ is an empty space where spiritual vitality manifests to form a cavity. When spirit and vitality return to this cavity, spiritual vitality will soar up to form a circle (of light) which is not void. Voidness which does not radiate is relative but voidness which radiates is absolute. Absolute voidness is not empty like relative voidness. Voidness that is not empty is spiritual light which is spirit-vitality that springs from the yellow hall center (huang ting or middle tan t'ien, in the solar plexus)."

Aaron · September 15, 2011

Aaron,

Could you further describe (or point me to a post of) your current experience/perception? Also, do you know (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that "you" are eternal? Or, rather that you are part of the "transient nature of all things" and ultimately are just a temporary smile on the blip of Tao?

Thanks.

Hello Jeff,

This is a good question and not one easy to answer. When I talk about my experience it is one that stems from understanding the nature of my existence, who I really am. I reached an understanding of this by meditating and stilling my mind to the point that there was no thought or realization at all, but simply nothing, when I reached that state I experienced a sensation of light all around, not moving, not flickering, but consistent and existing within all things. My perception of self did not exist, but rather I was light and light was all that was. When I began to experience this sensation I felt as if myself was an echo in the distance, yet there is no distance, so that would not be a good explanation, rather it is as if I was only a shadow of myself.

When I explain this phenomena to people I explain how I understand these things to work, this does not mean I have a supernatural awareness of the nature of existence, or the creation, or the creator, but rather insight into the nature of me.

When I say I understand the me before I was me, it is because I have examined myself through contemplation and come to understand that the "I" that exists is only transient, that the "I" before me, was merely born from this stillness, the light. When the "I" ceases to be, when my body ceases to breathe, my body's remains will be within the material world and continue to exist within the material world, but the "I" that I was before I was born has never died and is still here and now and will be after the "I" I understand myself to be is gone.

When I say we cease to be upon death, I am talking about the conceptualized "I" we believe ourselves to be, not the true selves that we are and will always be. We are born of the light and are always the light. Why do we come to believe that we only exist in this world then? To learn a lesson and once we learn that lesson we will cease to exist in this material world. I do believe this and I think it is by understanding that the light that gives birth to all things is me and that it is also you, that we can begin to understand the nature of existence.

So as long as the light exists, and it can never not exist, we exist. So I don't fear death or the passing of me, because I know that I will always be, just the portion of light that clings to the material under the guise of "I" will continue to return to be another "I" until I have learned what I need to learn. (Keep in mind that portion is not a good word for it, because I am never separate or individual from the light.)

I can honestly say that this has nothing to do with suffering or liberation, but rather something deeper, an understanding of the fundamental nature of what "I" is and what I am in a complete sense. I also understand that I am not bound by duty to learn this lesson or instruct others in this lesson, that all things will pass and return, and when the time is right they (I?) will be aware of this and they (I?) will not need to return anymore.

I hope that isn't too confusing.

Aaron

edit- I really hate putting this stuff into words because words can never truly explain it.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Twinner

Adishakti · September 15, 2011

Hi Aaron, You should read this book, No way for the Spiritually Advanced by Ram Tzu. I read it again just yesterday after 7 years. I always thought this book had a way of cleaning the ego within me. Let me know if you like the book if you happen to read it. Sample this:

Ram Tzu knows this...

You clever ones

Are always looking for a way

To beat the system.

You want enlightenment

You want eternal bliss

You want the ultimate orgasm

You want it all...

And

You want to be around

To enjoy it.

This renders you

The ultimate sucker.

You are fair game.

You get baptized and analyzed.

You get rolfed and ESTed.

You meditate and vegetate.

You're rebirthed and realigned.

You're fucked and sucked.

You chant, you rant,

You heal the child within.

You collect money in airports.

You get in touch with your feelings.

You have your palms, your cards,

Your auras and your chakras read.

If you're very clever

You go to India, Tibet,

Thailand, China...

In your heart

You know the Truth is incompatible

With indoor plumbing.

You humbly contract dysentery or hepatitis.

You pretend that Sai Baba

is different from Oral Roberts.

It's a wonder Ram Tzu hasn't died laughing.

This was posted in another thread and I felt that it didn't really go along with that thread's purpose, so I chose to create a new thread for those who might wish to discuss this topic.

Recently I have had a few experiences that have shaken my understanding of the world, the "void", heartmind, and enlightenment. For that matter it has shaken my understanding of compassion and other things as well, however this thread isn't so much about that, but rather I use this as an example of how it might be useful to shake off old beliefs to gain a greater awareness of what is and isn't.

The common consensus of most people is that in order to gain an awareness of the "truth" one must be taught or guided. (Please keep in mind that I use the word truth only so that we can understand the premise of my comments within a certain context.) I do not agree with this entirely, but in all honesty I cannot discount that certain ideas led me to a greater experience, but I also must say with honesty that only after I gave up those beliefs was I able to achieve an even greater degree of awareness, one that called into question and discounted many of the "truths" I held.

From my experience what I can say without doubt is that every man and woman, regardless of who they are or where they come from, has the ability to achieve this awareness, that it requires no guidance, but in some instances may require prompting, simply because many of us are led to believe that something other than, or more, doesn't exist, and rather what is true and real is what we've been taught to believe is true and real.

I also have come to understand that religions, regardless of the religion, are intricately linked to morality and in most cases a selfish desire for enlightenment in order to gain something that one believes will grant them some escape from death or suffering in this life. I can say from my own experience that neither of these is true in the context that people wish to believe it to be, but rather there is more to it than simply that. Part of my greater understanding stems from understanding the true nature of me as I've been taught to view me, and also what I was before I was born and still am. When one sees who they were from the beginning then the desire to continue to be the person they are fades away, because they understand the transient nature of this being they have become.

Anyone who sets forth and simply meditates, not on themselves, or truth, but simply sits and stills the mind will come to this revelation. I have no doubts of this. The problem is that we are tricked into believing that things require purpose, when in fact, in this case, purpose is the greatest hindrance. One can only achieve a greater degree of awareness when they understand that there is no purpose for it, that this state is already within them and exists, they only need to be made aware of it.

With that said, I know of nothing else to say, so I will leave it at that. I hope that this discussion will bear fruit. Be kind to others or bare your fangs, it doesn't matter, nor will it change what is, so please feel free to discuss this as you choose to.

Aaron

P.S. I will only say I'm enlightened if you say I'm not. <insert smiley face>

Jeff · September 15, 2011

Aaron,

Thank you for your post. Our experience/understanding seems pretty similar, but for me non-duality is still only an experience and not part of my daily life. Though I would say that the "flavor" of the experience/realizations seems different. For me, with the light, it feels like I am going in and at the same time letting it in. Almost like I am lowering the barrier and equalizing the pressure of the light. Also, the light "feels" like peace & joy. Unlike your description, i find myself wanting to "share it". But, would agree with your words that it really doesn't matter, because it all continues on.

Others with your perspective have told me that it almost feels like you are a "remote probe" for the Divine/Self. Does it at all feel like that?

Also, have you been able to let go and fully "merge or integrate" with the light? Sounds like you are describing more going "into" the light.

Finally, do you experience constant peace, bliss and very pleasurable energy vibrations during your daily life?

Thanks for your time.

xabir2005 · September 15, 2011

Hello Jeff,

This is a good question and not one easy to answer. When I talk about my experience it is one that stems from understanding the nature of my existence, who I really am. I reached an understanding of this by meditating and stilling my mind to the point that there was no thought or realization at all, but simply nothing, when I reached that state I experienced a sensation of light all around, not moving, not flickering, but consistent and existing within all things. My perception of self did not exist, but rather I was light and light was all that was. When I began to experience this sensation I felt as if myself was an echo in the distance, yet there is no distance, so that would not be a good explanation, rather it is as if I was only a shadow of myself.

When I explain this phenomena to people I explain how I understand these things to work, this does not mean I have a supernatural awareness of the nature of existence, or the creation, or the creator, but rather insight into the nature of me.

When I say I understand the me before I was me, it is because I have examined myself through contemplation and come to understand that the "I" that exists is only transient, that the "I" before me, was merely born from this stillness, the light. When the "I" ceases to be, when my body ceases to breathe, my body's remains will be within the material world and continue to exist within the material world, but the "I" that I was before I was born has never died and is still here and now and will be after the "I" I understand myself to be is gone.

When I say we cease to be upon death, I am talking about the conceptualized "I" we believe ourselves to be, not the true selves that we are and will always be. We are born of the light and are always the light. Why do we come to believe that we only exist in this world then? To learn a lesson and once we learn that lesson we will cease to exist in this material world. I do believe this and I think it is by understanding that the light that gives birth to all things is me and that it is also you, that we can begin to understand the nature of existence.

So as long as the light exists, and it can never not exist, we exist. So I don't fear death or the passing of me, because I know that I will always be, just the portion of light that clings to the material under the guise of "I" will continue to return to be another "I" until I have learned what I need to learn. (Keep in mind that portion is not a good word for it, because I am never separate or individual from the light.)

I can honestly say that this has nothing to do with suffering or liberation, but rather something deeper, an understanding of the fundamental nature of what "I" is and what I am in a complete sense. I also understand that I am not bound by duty to learn this lesson or instruct others in this lesson, that all things will pass and return, and when the time is right they (I?) will be aware of this and they (I?) will not need to return anymore.

I hope that isn't too confusing.

Aaron

edit- I really hate putting this stuff into words because words can never truly explain it.

As I suspected, what you realized is exactly the same as the I AM that I talk about (but you said it is not I AM but more like 'I am not', at which point I wasn't sure what you were implying). You are saying the same thing but just don't use the same term as me. The I AM I talk about is not a conceptual, mind-body identification or ego. After almost 2 years of inquiring, "Before birth, Who am I?" the answer came: Before birth, I AM. (not as a conceptual answer though as there was absolutely no thoughts at that point) The I AM is utterly still, but it is not dead stillness, as it is obviously aware/awake as a sheer presence, and is all-pervading. It is prior to conceptual thoughts, and in fact appears upstream to all thoughts and perceptions (Before birth, I AM). This is not mere stillness state as in a calming of thoughts, but the absolute stillness of Presence.

Now as the old Masters say, cherish and trust your experience, but refine your views. That realization and experience of I AM is undeniable - it cannot be denied, or rejected. It is something so clear and vivid, intimate and undeniable, and at that point of realization I said, everything can be denied except I AM. When I realized this, I started a topic called 'Certainty of Being' in my forum, and that is how my e-journal started.

The view however needs to be refined.

As Shurangama Sutra describes,

(33) Further, in his practice of samadhi, such a good person's mind is firm, unmoving, and proper and can no longer be disturbed by demons. He can thoroughly investigate the origin of all categories of beings and contemplate the source of the subtle, fleeting, and constant fluctuation. But if he begins to speculate about self and others, he could fall into error with theories of partial impermanence and partial permanence based on four distorted views.

First, as this person contemplates the wonderfully bright mind pervading the ten directions, he concludes that this state of profound stillness is the ultimate spiritual self. Then he speculates, "My spiritual self, which is settled, bright, and unmoving, pervades the ten directions. All living beings are within my mind, and there they are born and die by themselves. Therefore, my mind is permanent, while those who undergo birth and death there are truly impermanent."

......

Because of these speculations of impermanence and permanence, he will fall into externalism and become confused about the Bodhi nature. This is the third externalist teaching, in which one postulates partial permanence.

And this is why the further insights into non-dual (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html ) and anatta are important.

Edited September 15, 2011 by xabir2005

xabir2005 · September 15, 2011

Yes, non-duality is still an experience. During meditation and a couple of times during normal daily activities.

Do you still feel distinct chakras/tan tiens? Or, does it feel more like an unified field?

Thanks.

I had glimpses of experiences like you since a couple of years back, and seeing this, Thusness told me to start practicing self-inquiry... it didn't take long, (but it can certainly be faster for some - some got it even instantly), about 1 year 10 months since I started self-inquiring... to Self-Realization.

You may want to try self-inquiry as it is a direct path to self-realization which I, Thusness, and many others can attest. The method is being described in my e-book: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html , but also taught by many other teachers like Sri Ramana Maharshi, Ch'an Master Hsu Yun, etc etc.

And no, I don't feel distinct chakras or dan tiens, and furthermore I don't manipulate or deal with chakras or kundalini and the likes in order to induce experiences of cosmic consciousness or lead to self-realization. I consider that as a valid, but gradual path... whereas self-inquiry is a direct path to self-realization.

Edited September 15, 2011 by xabir2005

ion · September 15, 2011

Hello Ion,

I am not passing judgement, nor making assertions, I was merely asking you a question. As for your answer, it was wrong. You do not clearly understand Void and Light, but that's fine. I think what has happened is that you came up with a conception of these things that met your expectations. To help you I will explain this to you, in the hopes it will help you in your practice.

Void and Light are not separated by dimensions, they exist within the same space and all space. All things arise from stillness and stillness exists within all space. What people like to call the void is actually stillness, it is the force from which all things are given birth, the creator of light and material. Light is forever and always, material existence is forever and always, it is also light in movement. Think of it as light is still energy and material is moving energy. So the world in which we walk and think in, is actually the light in movement. In order for one to experience this light, then one must first experience stillness to become aware of it. Of course this explanation has no value, since the only real understanding of these phenomena comes from experiencing them. It is much like describing how to create a paper airplane. One might understand the basic concepts of building an airplane, but without actually building that airplane, one can never really know what the airplane actually is.

You are free to be psychic, but just as you offer your guidance to those about my status as a pretender, I offer my guidance to those that there are many that claim these abilities, but none that can actually prove them in practice, because the body we live in and the world we exist within does not work along those lines. My enlightenment did not grant me any knowledge of the creation or the creator, it did not grant me an audience with the Gods, nor any great psychic potential, it only allowed me insight into the nature of existence, nothing more. I will not claim anything I have not received.

I have however spoken to greater powers, those beings that have passed without losing their identity of self, so I know they exist, but I also know that I am no great power, nor are there any great powers present on this forum. If these great ones are awake within the material world, I know they are silent, for their duty is not to guide but to watch. If they choose to guide, it will never be to give an answer, but to encourage others to seek the answer. Now for those who are queasy with my sudden shift to the supernatural, let me assure you that there is no way I can prove this to you, so I will not ask you to believe this in any way. This is merely my experience and I accept it as that.

Aaron

You mis understand. ZWhat you are calling void and light is what shows me that you have a simple understanding.

It is neither void or light. Light comes from this dimension...actual light so it is dimmensions apart. What you are calling void and light are the primal male and female. The light as you call it is not light because light is a product of relativity, it is the male principle, the yang.

Yes they do exist in the exact same space and yes, both have the nature of nothingness, it is that nature and there opposing direction that causes the "interplay", the undulation of the "brighteness"(male,yang) through the darkness(fe-male,yin).

What people like to call the void, is not stillness as you say, it is a state of activity. What people call no-existence is stillness, when the "light" comes(action), stillness epands infinitely outward and light expands infinitely inward so viewing the female a person sees vast emptiness. Viewed from the male, a person see's eternal brightness.

The male(light,pos.), is always in a state of activity and has not will not ever be in a state of non active stillness. Pre-existing the light is the femine principle(neg. yin), in a state of stillness(infinite receptivity).The void springs into expansion at the onset of male into the ecact same spaceless dimmensionless space.

I can tell you do have understanding but it appears your self image does not allow you to see that my understanding is far more complex regarding the subject. If you have further questions or statements refine them to such.

When you call someone a pretender and it turned out to be because you misunderstoood what I thought I said clearly. That what you call light pre-exist the concept of light, and what you call void is the first feminine response to action, it is only step one in the interplay.

What we are discussing here is merely the first step in the interplay of yin-yang and is paperthin as far as my understanding goes.

The essential nature of yin and yang is nothingness...Infinite nothingness, this is expressed as the feminine principle. All tho' the yin principle is a form of infinite nothingness at the point that it has a self awareness the original expression and self nature transends the 1 form of nothingness and nothingness is expressed as male(light) which is the same energy and quality of the feminine principle exept inverted.

They have the same self nature, the same awareness, descriptivly they have all the same "qualities"and occupy the same "space", yet, because of the inversion their energies flow in opposing directions.

The male(light) goes forever inward, and the female(dark) goes forever outward. It is not space and the light doesnt actually travel through it. It is somewhat of a nondimmensional firmament that nothing could travel across.

The only thing that actually "exists" in preexistance, the pseudo dimmension we are discussing, is the awareness of the forces and principles that pseudo exist, in a nonexistant state.

When the "light" of yours fisrt shines a plethora of awarness and principles come into pseudo existance because of the existence of male.

This is how the sourceless source creates thru non-assertion...There is no "I'am".

The sourceless source(the principle of infinity)express's itself as nothing, the feminine principle, a state and law of non'existence. However the expression of the principle of infinity was not "feminine proinciple" it was "nothing", so the expression and law of nothing trancends the confines of female and spontaneously express's itself as male(light) and the two go into action.

when it is just stillness, there are no describable charecteristics, once there is activity things can be percieved. Because there is female and male, there is SYMMETRY. A symmetry can be percieved, there opposition can be percieved, diversification from one thing to another happen all sorts of things that we call charecteristics and qualities can be percieved.

And it all happened because the sourceless source said "nothing".

I would have thought that this was derailing your thread but then I remembered the title. If you want to know more about what you know little about let me know, I would be happy to expand your knowledge on what you call light and void.

Jeff · September 15, 2011

I had glimpses of experiences like you since a couple of years back, and seeing this, Thusness told me to start practicing self-inquiry... it didn't take long, (but it can certainly be faster for some - some got it even instantly), about 1 year 10 months since I started self-inquiring... to Self-Realization.

You may want to try self-inquiry as it is a direct path to self-realization which I, Thusness, and many others can attest. The method is being described in my e-book: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html , but also taught by many other teachers like Sri Ramana Maharshi, Ch'an Master Hsu Yun, etc etc.

And no, I don't feel distinct chakras or dan tiens, and furthermore I don't manipulate or deal with chakras or kundalini and the likes in order to induce experiences of cosmic consciousness or lead to self-realization. I consider that as a valid, but gradual path... whereas self-inquiry is a direct path to self-realization.

Thanks again for your comments and advice. Self-inquiry has become part of my path. I will definitely take a look at your method.

Does self-inquiry alone lead to enlightenment? I had always thought that it was the marriage of both the male & females aspects. The unity of bliss & energy. Two sides of the coin.

Jeff · September 15, 2011

Ion,

Thank you for your detailed explanations here and in other threads.

Something that would be helpful for the discussion... How do you define "enlightenment"? What is it (the process)? Or, what happens? Is there an integration of the male & female components?

Thanks.

ion · September 16, 2011

Ion,

Thank you for your detailed explanations here and in other threads.

Something that would be helpful for the discussion... How do you define "enlightenment"? What is it (the process)? Or, what happens? Is there an integration of the male & female components?

Thanks.

Is there an integration of the male & female components?

To know the male and dwell with the female is to be enlightened and to have emulated the Tao, but not full enlightenment.

The male and female are one energy, the same fabric and an aspect of the tao which is the path that plays through the fabric. Niether really integrates the other, but more so emulates the other by immediately reflecting the other and so integrates in spirit, but the two "stuffs" although in the same space, never integrate.Except in the sense that yin integrates male at the begining of the interplay...her latent potency is activated by the initial action. And because of the ultimate receptivity of female and the infinite charge of male, the integration is eternal so female is for ever in activity. If the power of male was not infinite yet the female was still ultimately receptive, she would wear out the male energy and exploit the entire charge until it was difused back into nothingness and she returns to a state of still receptivity with no power lost, no energy spent

It is the nature of yin to integrate, exploit to the full potential of the integrated charge until it is chargless, then return to still receptivity.

To dwell with the female is to respond to action with equal force without ever taking action, it is to be female integrating male and letting go of male to return to female.

The path of Tao comes from stillness and returns to stillness

Female(stillness-receptivity) always integrates male(charge-stimuli) and the process is called the way(Tao). Male can not integrate female because the path of male is action and initiative, male is dependent on female so it original state is action and intitating activity.

How do you define "enlightenment"? What is it (the process)? Or, what happens?

I think utter and total enlightenment would be the absolute anihilation of the egotistical disposition.

When a person "looses" its life and unites with the source after letting go of all things relative. We return to the primal state of the entire universe of universes, stillness and a sense of being. The preceeding state of sense of self, is sense of being. This sense of being is in all of us but it is the one sense of being at the core from the original awareness that we all share.

When the body dies and the identity goes away and the sense of self vanishes there is a sense of being without association that has always been there, so it is like one never died because the sense of being is eternal.

To become ultimately enlightened is to die in meditation, to go through the same process of death, letting go of everything and the literal death of the consciousness and its perception and disposition. The person who does this would be effectively no more, and has died for humanity. True enlightenment is not for the self but to become a beacon to humanity to guide them back to the Tao by sacraficing the self to the Tao.

The self is not the body, the body is the birth place of a self's disposition by its subjection.

What we consider to be the self is a conceptualized ideology based on the experience of livving. At the core of consciousness is the awareness of being, a sense of being, but as humans we then concieve of being and conceptualize it.

We concieve of life and living, and having a life of our own, and hold those conceptions more then any other concept. Living a life, & having a life are conditioned concepts, and the self is also one, and the ego is a byproduct and dependent on the concepts of life, having a life/being alive, and living ones own life. Because of these concepts we also concieve of death and thus we have to experience it. The reality is the mind does not die, but it becomes aware of the experience of death and returns to the disassociated, nonrelative state of "sense of being".

This is why I choose as a general term, awake, rather then enlightened. Although in some conventional sense of the term many of us here have been "enlightened" to a degree, otherwise we wouldn't be here. But "enlightenmet" in the big sense is to lay yourself down so the path to liberation can be taught to the delusional.

A person, having a disposition, can not teach the path ot liberation from a relative position. Liberation is for the betterment of humanity and not enlightenment of the self. So the enlightened one teaches liberation to and for humanity from the nonrelative positionlessness of Tao.

Aaron · September 16, 2011

Is there an integration of the male & female components?

To know the male and dwell with the female is to be enlightened and to have emulated the Tao, but not full enlightenment.

The male and female are one energy, the same fabric and an aspect of the tao which is the path that plays through the fabric. Niether really integrates the other, but more so emulates the other by immediately reflecting the other and so integrates in spirit, but the two "stuffs" although in the same space, never integrate.Except in the sense that yin integrates male at the begining of the interplay...her latent potency is activated by the initial action. And because of the ultimate receptivity of female and the infinite charge of male, the integration is eternal so female is for ever in activity. If the power of male was not infinite yet the female was still ultimately receptive, she would wear out the male energy and exploit the entire charge until it was difused back into nothingness and she returns to a state of still receptivity with no power lost, no energy spent

It is the nature of yin to integrate, exploit to the full potential of the integrated charge until it is chargless, then return to still receptivity.

To dwell with the female is to respond to action with equal force without ever taking action, it is to be female integrating male and letting go of male to return to female.

The path of Tao comes from stillness and returns to stillness

Female(stillness-receptivity) always integrates male(charge-stimuli) and the process is called the way(Tao). Male can not integrate female because the path of male is action and initiative, male is dependent on female so it original state is action and intitating activity.

How do you define "enlightenment"? What is it (the process)? Or, what happens?

I think utter and total enlightenment would be the absolute anihilation of the egotistical disposition.

When a person "looses" its life and unites with the source after letting go of all things relative. We return to the primal state of the entire universe of universes, stillness and a sense of being. The preceeding state of sense of self, is sense of being. This sense of being is in all of us but it is the one sense of being at the core from the original awareness that we all share.

When the body dies and the identity goes away and the sense of self vanishes there is a sense of being without association that has always been there, so it is like one never died because the sense of being is eternal.

To become ultimately enlightened is to die in meditation, to go through the same process of death, letting go of everything and the literal death of the consciousness and its perception and disposition. The person who does this would be effectively no more, and has died for humanity. True enlightenment is not for the self but to become a beacon to humanity to guide them back to the Tao by sacraficing the self to the Tao.

The self is not the body, the body is the birth place of a self's disposition by its subjection.

What we consider to be the self is a conceptualized ideology based on the experience of livving. At the core of consciousness is the awareness of being, a sense of being, but as humans we then concieve of being and conceptualize it.

We concieve of life and living, and having a life of our own, and hold those conceptions more then any other concept. Living a life, & having a life are conditioned concepts, and the self is also one, and the ego is a byproduct and dependent on the concepts of life, having a life/being alive, and living ones own life. Because of these concepts we also concieve of death and thus we have to experience it. The reality is the mind does not die, but it becomes aware of the experience of death and returns to the disassociated, nonrelative state of "sense of being".

This is why I choose as a general term, awake, rather then enlightened. Although in some conventional sense of the term many of us here have been "enlightened" to a degree, otherwise we wouldn't be here. But "enlightenmet" in the big sense is to lay yourself down so the path to liberation can be taught to the delusional.

A person, having a disposition, can not teach the path ot liberation from a relative position. Liberation is for the betterment of humanity and not enlightenment of the self. So the enlightened one teaches liberation to and for humanity from the nonrelative positionlessness of Tao.

Hello Ion,

My only questions is if you are the powerful psychic you proclaim to be, with precognitive visions, telepathy, and the ability to see auras, why you have not chosen to lead us all from darkness? One of your potential rivals the dragon of the east! I certainly hope he doesn't become jealous of your power.

Aaron

Edited September 16, 2011 by Twinner

xabir2005 · September 16, 2011

Thanks again for your comments and advice. Self-inquiry has become part of my path. I will definitely take a look at your method.

Does self-inquiry alone lead to enlightenment? I had always thought that it was the marriage of both the male & females aspects. The unity of bliss & energy. Two sides of the coin.

Self-inquiry will take you to self-realization. This is a permanent realization and not a transitory state. You'll discover what the Advaita calls, sat-chit-ananda, which means beingness-consciousness-bliss, you'll realize your fundamental identity.

But self-realization is not the end of the path, at least for me and Thusness, after which one will further that experience, and then move on to deeper insights and contemplations.

Edited September 16, 2011 by xabir2005

ion · September 16, 2011

:lol: I never claimed any such things. In this exact thread I responded to you

Hello Ion,

My only questions is if you are the powerful psychic you proclaim to be, with precognitive visions, telepathy, and the ability to see auras, why you have not chosen to lead us all from darkness? One of your potential rivals the dragon of the east! I certainly hope he doesn't become jealous of your power.

Aaron

:lol:

On onother page of this thread I responded to a less contrived version of the same statement with-

You are the first person that I've interacted with on this website that crystalizes peoples passing statements into hard assertions for the purpose of profiling and degrading.

One of my psychic sensitivities is the ability to see essences and it is connected to intuition.

I eperience precognition in a way that I have no control over. It is usually about mundane seemingly meaningless event.

I do not read minds but I do pick up thoughts that are not mine from time to time. I seem to have acsess to what many feel is deep esoteric knowledge about the orgins of certain things. I'm not going to turn my membership into an attempt to prove of anykind of psychic abilities.

As I said I have psychic sensativities that is what I call them rather then call myself a "psychic" and rather then say I have abilities

Dont you realize to tease somone for things they have not done, and to project the contents of your mind on them as to laugh mockingly is to be like laughing at your self. Even more so now this other part of my earlier response more aplicable.

Again, I am not going to fit into, or take responsibility for your preconceived notions based on your generalizations of what I implied.

Those are your images that you are projecting and the only foundation for any of it is in your mind, not in what I shared about myself.

Clearly you do not show the receptivity and unprejudiced nature of an awakened person by any of my measures. Where I gave you credit in my first response, I now have my doubts. I say this not to insult you but for the sake of any impressionable forum member.

Jeff · September 16, 2011

Self-inquiry will take you to self-realization. This is a permanent realization and not a transitory state. You'll discover what the Advaita calls, sat-chit-ananda, which means beingness-consciousness-bliss, you'll realize your fundamental identity.

But self-realization is not the end of the path, at least for me and Thusness, after which one will further that experience, and then move on to deeper insights and contemplations.

Probably just the beginning...

Jeff · September 16, 2011

Ion,

Thank you for your words. Then would the non-identification with self be the "beginning" of non-dual perspective? Implying that you could perceive from a state of non-dual, but still have Ego issues to resolve? With "integration" or "elimination of self" going on forever?

Thanks.

Jeff · September 17, 2011

Self-inquiry will take you to self-realization. This is a permanent realization and not a transitory state. You'll discover what the Advaita calls, sat-chit-ananda, which means beingness-consciousness-bliss, you'll realize your fundamental identity.

But self-realization is not the end of the path, at least for me and Thusness, after which one will further that experience, and then move on to deeper insights and contemplations.

Xabir,

A followup for clarity. With your definitions of Thusness, by "non-duality", do you mean the absence of I-ness or true oneness with everything?

Thanks.

ion · September 17, 2011

Ion,

Thank you for your words. Then would the non-identification with self be the "beginning" of non-dual perspective? Implying that you could perceive from a state of non-dual, but still have Ego issues to resolve? With "integration" or "elimination of self" going on forever?

Thanks.

I would say the begining of non-dual perception is something we are born with but that dual perception is very much a byproduct of conceptualizing the self.

Self, is a concept that seems inevidable that we all end up grasping and holding onto. I think it is from there that the percieved duality really takes root because after the concept of self is integrated and exentuated through various modes all aspects of a selfs experience are trangulated through duality and associated to the self.

I think that there are various levels of duality in perception and that some are more under its influence then others and you can definitely make it apart of your practice to see things more wholey, and that sort of life style does put the ego in check. Is that part of what you're post was asking?

The ego can be turned up and down. Our society though seems to be bent on fixing it in its most excentuated position.

Even the way people talk always prompting eachother to say yes or no, or to make concrete decisions or statements all the time. The stress's each of us face with rent, bills, the general cost of living in an indusrialized society excentuate the egotistical disposition. OUr kinship ties and economy excentuate the ego in all of us.

Whether you are about to loose your house and car or whether you got all your bills payed, the ritual of doing so excentuates the ego. People are constantly thinking about what they have to do-"I gotta wake up early tomorrow. I have to go to work. I haveto get gas. I have to pay the bills or I wont have food or a place to live and then I'll be constantly thinking of what I have to do."

Stresses, obligations, pleasures, privalages they all sustain the ego and duality.

There are definitely things that exentuate the ego and duality, and there are definitley ways of toning them down which usually revolve around subtracting things from our lives which takes discapline and faith.

I almost feel like I misunderstood your post though so if I did, feel free to clarify.

C T · September 17, 2011

Stresses, obligations, pleasures, privalages they all sustain the ego and duality.

There are definitely things that exentuate the ego and duality, and there are definitley ways of toning them down which usually revolve around subtracting things from our lives which takes discapline and faith.

Actually they sustain one another in a symbiotic circle.

Nothing inherently wrong with things, nor with ego. Its the identification and grasping after which solidifies dualistic tendencies, and this is the basic cause of life's perceived miseries.

Do you really see the need to tone down anything? If so, a person who sees this way is still trapped in functioning on a dualistic level. According to you, there should not be anything to subtract, right?

The way is about ease. Discipline and faith, while noble, ultimately has limitations. Find the path which has zero limitations.

ion · September 18, 2011

Actually they sustain one another in a symbiotic circle.

Nothing inherently wrong with things, nor with ego. Its the identification and grasping after which solidifies dualistic tendencies, and this is the basic cause of life's perceived miseries.

Do you really see the need to tone down anything? If so, a person who sees this way is still trapped in functioning on a dualistic level. According to you, there should not be anything to subtract, right?

The way is about ease. Discipline and faith, while noble, ultimately has limitations. Find the path which has zero limitations.

Nothing inherently "wrong", with ego but it is the source of the string of dependencies that have humanity on the verge of self distruction. An insustainable culture is one that operates by egotistical excentuation and permanent culture is one that operates on principles of selflessness.

"heaven and earth are everlasting because they do not live for or of themselves"

and so are permanent cultures everlasting because they do not live for or of themselves.

Its the identification and grasping after which solidifies dualistic tendencies, and this is the basic cause of life's perceived miseries.

Identifying with is to associate to the self and in away consider the associated object as a composite to your identity. Identification and grasping are actions and pursuits of the egotisticly excentuated state which is why I pointed out that that our societies require a mass of people in excentuated egotistical states.

Where would your society be if it wasnt for desire and the pursuit to fullfill the desire, without grasping after the intangible. That is the fuel onwhich the world runs.

Where would there be a war if there weren't a point of view?

Do you really see the need to tone down anything? If so, a person who sees this way is still trapped in functioning on a dualistic level.

This is the common idea of modern day guru's who make a livving off of telling certain people what they want to hear.

According to you, there should not be anything to subtract, right?

According to me, my past in real life and on this forum there is nothing to learn, nothing to assimilate, ALL there is todo IS subtract.

ion · September 18, 2011