Do we require guidance to reach enlightenment?

[Aaron]

"Or even better yet, don't listen to Buddha and just sit and contemplate on your own. You'd be amazed what an ignorant white man from the good ol' south can become aware of when he silences his mind and reaches a state of absolute stillness.

 

Aaron"

 

 

"Excellent ! I couldn't have said it better myself."

 

Too bad it's not always that easy, as most people aren't born into this life with the wisdom to "transcend" cyclical existence. There's so many byroads that you can get lost on, it would be stupid not to take guidence from someone or to use teachings to further your cultivation torwards realizing fully the "root" of mind, body and the universe (if this is your goal.)

 

This was posted in another thread and I felt that it didn't really go along with that thread's purpose, so I chose to create a new thread for those who might wish to discuss this topic.

 

Recently I have had a few experiences that have shaken my understanding of the world, the "void", heartmind, and enlightenment. For that matter it has shaken my understanding of compassion and other things as well, however this thread isn't so much about that, but rather I use this as an example of how it might be useful to shake off old beliefs to gain a greater awareness of what is and isn't.

 

The common consensus of most people is that in order to gain an awareness of the "truth" one must be taught or guided. (Please keep in mind that I use the word truth only so that we can understand the premise of my comments within a certain context.) I do not agree with this entirely, but in all honesty I cannot discount that certain ideas led me to a greater experience, but I also must say with honesty that only after I gave up those beliefs was I able to achieve an even greater degree of awareness, one that called into question and discounted many of the "truths" I held.

 

From my experience what I can say without doubt is that every man and woman, regardless of who they are or where they come from, has the ability to achieve this awareness, that it requires no guidance, but in some instances may require prompting, simply because many of us are led to believe that something other than, or more, doesn't exist, and rather what is true and real is what we've been taught to believe is true and real.

 

I also have come to understand that religions, regardless of the religion, are intricately linked to morality and in most cases a selfish desire for enlightenment in order to gain something that one believes will grant them some escape from death or suffering in this life. I can say from my own experience that neither of these is true in the context that people wish to believe it to be, but rather there is more to it than simply that. Part of my greater understanding stems from understanding the true nature of me as I've been taught to view me, and also what I was before I was born and still am. When one sees who they were from the beginning then the desire to continue to be the person they are fades away, because they understand the transient nature of this being they have become.

 

Anyone who sets forth and simply meditates, not on themselves, or truth, but simply sits and stills the mind will come to this revelation. I have no doubts of this. The problem is that we are tricked into believing that things require purpose, when in fact, in this case, purpose is the greatest hindrance. One can only achieve a greater degree of awareness when they understand that there is no purpose for it, that this state is already within them and exists, they only need to be made aware of it.

 

With that said, I know of nothing else to say, so I will leave it at that. I hope that this discussion will bear fruit. Be kind to others or bare your fangs, it doesn't matter, nor will it change what is, so please feel free to discuss this as you choose to.

 

Aaron

 

P.S. I will only say I'm enlightened if you say I'm not. <insert smiley face>

Edited September 12, 2011 by Twinner

[Birch]

I suggest we might need "unguidance" but since it's just something we've decided to do, doesn't matter really.

So, given you're enlightened, what would you say to me who doesn't want to be enlightened but doesn't quite know why exactly but does know it doesn't matter if i am or i'm not (enlightened).

With my thanks for the insight (given you're plugged in:-))

[doc benway]

To paraphrase three insightful people:

Osho -

True religion is an individual's search for the nature of their being, everything else is politics

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti -

The truth is a pathless land

 

Anthony DeMello -

Awareness, awareness, awareness

 

Nice post Aaron. I tend to think that there is a point at which one realizes that there is no need for a guru or guidance, that it is a hinderance, in fact. And yet, nearly every person who attains that insight has made use of some sort of guidance leading up to that point. Would they have ever reached that level of insight without the guidance? I don't know the answer.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi reportedly attained liberation at age 16 but even he was born into a Brahmin family with firm roots in orthodox Hinduism. He had relatively little religious training or interest, however, until his father's death, when he seemed to undergo a dramatic ascent to liberation. He seems to be an example of your assertion but such examples seem few and far between. On the other hand, the number of adepts who do practice and train and study in a variety of traditions seem to fail much more commonly than succeed in achieving anything that might be called true liberation.

[Aaron]

I suggest we might need "unguidance" but since it's just something we've decided to do, doesn't matter really.

So, given you're enlightened, what would you say to me who doesn't want to be enlightened but doesn't quite know why exactly but does know it doesn't matter if i am or i'm not (enlightened).

With my thanks for the insight (given you're plugged in:-))

 

Hello K,

 

I never said I was enlightened. I'm only enlightened if you say I'm not. I'd say that it's often a paradox, in order for one to truly begin to achieve awareness, they often must have a desire for greater awareness, but in achieving greater awareness, they must also learn to let that desire go.

 

If you don't wish to be enlightened, well it's too late, you already are, you're just not aware of it. I mean this honestly, the enlightened you is living and breathing here and now, but there is no requirement for you to become aware of this at all, you can go forth, raise a family, have children, buy a car, walk in the park, do whatever you want to do. When it is time, you will know it, then you will begin to search for it, then once you've searched long enough, you will understand that there was nothing to search for in the first place.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I hope that's not too evasive, but there is no right answer to what you're asking. The right answer is really only the answer you believe is right.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

To paraphrase three insightful people:

Osho -

True religion is an individual's search for the nature of their being, everything else is politics

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti -

The truth is a pathless land

 

Anthony DeMello -

Awareness, awareness, awareness

 

Nice post Aaron. I tend to think that there is a point at which one realizes that there is no need for a guru or guidance, that it is a hinderance, in fact. And yet, nearly every person who attains that insight has made use of some sort of guidance leading up to that point. Would they have ever reached that level of insight without the guidance? I don't know the answer.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi reportedly attained liberation at age 16 but even he was born into a Brahmin family with firm roots in orthodox Hinduism. He had relatively little religious training or interest, however, until his father's death, when he seemed to undergo a dramatic ascent to liberation. He seems to be an example of your assertion but such examples seem few and far between. On the other hand, the number of adepts who do practice and train and study in a variety of traditions seem to fail much more commonly than succeed in achieving anything that might be called true liberation.

 

I think it's important to clarify that I'm not saying one should not seek guidance, but rather one should be aware that when one does seek guidance it will often be along an orthodox path set forth by over 2,000 years of practice, or less, all depending. With that in mind, one should always consider that, if one man can achieve awareness without guidance, why can't another man? Is enlightenment so evasive that it requires a special program and dogma to reach, or is it available and readily accessible simply by practicing certain principles?

 

Of course these principles have nothing to do with morality, but rather clarity of the mind, dedication, and meditation. If one practices these three virtues, then others will arise of their own accord.

 

Aaron

[xabir2005]

Yes it is not difficult or uncommon for one to attain some level of insight on his own.

 

But to progress further one requires right views and often right guidance, by progress I mean like http://awakeningtore...experience.html

[Ambrose_Bierce]

Has anyone here ever seen enlightenment? Wouldnt only enlightenment beget the answer?

[suninmyeyes]

I dont know as I havent reached enlightement ,dont really buy into a spiritual concepts of 'reaching' or attaining in general.

I do believe life is unique and everything is possible, the only rule is that there is no rule.

[C T]

A true guide does not guide.

A true student does not follow.

A true follower can never learn anything worth studying.

 

 

Years ago, i wrote this in my journal: It is not the Teacher who manifests before you what you perceive to be an awakening, but the awakening within you which manifests what you perceive as a Teacher(s).

 

In other words, as the senses become more purified and filters are dismantled one by one, then one's vision gradually become clearer, and in that clarity, often one gets to see how one can derive great delight from surrendering to simplicity, something which comes from sustaining a patient and humble practice. This recognition can only touch us as profoundly as we are willing to let go of our resistance. Once the barriers come down, everything can be our Teacher, since wisdom cannot fail but recognizes itself always.

[Marblehead]

And then we have:

 

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Walk beside me and be my friend. - Albert Camus

[Aaron]

Yes it is not difficult or uncommon for one to attain some level of insight on his own.

 

But to progress further one requires right views and often right guidance, by progress I mean like http://awakeningtore...experience.html

 

 

Hello Xabir,

 

You do not need anyone to achieve the highest degree of awareness. If someone tells you differently they have not reached awareness or have some ulterior motive to encourage you to follow them. In regards to Thussness, I feel he is quite adept at regurgitating what he's read, but he has fallen short of any real experience. In other words, he talks about it, but doesn't seem to know about it. This isn't meant to offend, just an observation. Who knows, he may very well be enlightened and I am the idiot.

 

Aaron

[xabir2005]

Hello Xabir,

 

You do not need anyone to achieve the highest degree of awareness. If someone tells you differently they have not reached awareness or have some ulterior motive to encourage you to follow them. In regards to Thussness, I feel he is quite adept at regurgitating what he's read, but he has fallen short of any real experience. In other words, he talks about it, but doesn't seem to know about it. This isn't meant to offend, just an observation. Who knows, he may very well be enlightened and I am the idiot.

 

Aaron

The Buddha, and basically all authentic Buddhist teachers, are fond of guiding practitioners to the highest degree of awareness. I would think he is not genuine, or have ulterior motives, if he does not have such intentions to lead their students all the way. Only some selfish master who wants to hide something from his student so he could retain his position, instead of giving away all that he knows, would do that sort of thing.

 

As for Thusness, he speaks from true experience. How do I know? Because I've gone through the same stages as him and documented them in my ejournal: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html

 

It is silly to think of ulterior motives - what can it possibly be for someone not getting any personal benefit out of this?

Edited September 13, 2011 by xabir2005

[Aaron]

The Buddha, and basically all authentic Buddhist teachers, are fond of guiding practitioners to the highest degree of awareness. I would think he is not genuine, or have ulterior motives, if he does not have such intentions to lead their students all the way. Sounds to me some selfish master who wants to hide something from his student so he could retain his position, instead of giving away all that he knows.

 

He speaks from true experience. How do I know? Because I've gone through the same stages as him and documented them in my ejournal: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html

 

It is silly to think of ulterior motives - what can it possibly be for someone not getting any personal benefit out of this?

 

It is only silly if you believe it is silly. The fact of the matter is that most of what Thussness has shared has already been expressed in other manuscripts and texts, nothing is original or authentic, at least there is no individual voice that I hear, but rather the stereotypical Buddhist DO voice I hear so often. You are obviously a devotee of Thussness and that's fine, I'm just pointing out that enlightenment is more than beautiful words, it's a practice expressed first in honesty, then in self examination. When one has examined these things they can move on to deeper contemplation. I don't see this expressed very much in what Thussness shares, which leads me to believe he has not recognized the importance of the former and rather is seeking to gain an audience with the latter. It's a shame people don't question their religious authorities, rather than accept what they have to say on faith.

 

Again Thussness can no more show someone enlightenment than a pile of crap can drive a car. Not meant to be offensive, just making a strong point.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I can show you an authentic apple, but sadly it's really an orange, Wait though, since people have deemed it's authentic, then I'm sure you'll have no problem accepting it as an apple.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Twinner

[xabir2005]

It is only silly if you believe it is silly. The fact of the matter is that most of what Thussness has shared has already been expressed in other manuscripts and texts, nothing is original or authentic, at least there is no individual voice that I hear, but rather the stereotypical Buddhist DO voice I hear so often. You are obviously a devotee of Thussness and that's fine, I'm just pointing out that enlightenment is more than beautiful words, it's a practice expressed first in honesty, then in self examination. When one has examined these things they can move on to deeper contemplation. I don't see this expressed very much in what Thussness shares, which leads me to believe he has not recognized the importance of the former and rather is seeking to gain an audience with the latter. It's a shame people don't question their religious authorities, rather than accept what they have to say on faith.

 

Again Thussness can no more show someone enlightenment than a pile of crap can drive a car. Not meant to be offensive, just making a strong point.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I can show you an authentic apple, but sadly it's really an orange, Wait though, since people have deemed it's authentic, then I'm sure you'll have no problem accepting it as an apple.

to realize buddhist enlightenment is to realize d.o. (If it is not d.o, it is not buddhist enlightenment.), so it comes as no surprise, but his explanation and description is really pretty much his own.

 

So much so that he has been called by someone who just got banned here, as a "new age pseudobuddhist" for his untraditional way of expressing his experience.

 

It is very obvious to me, having personal insight myself plus having conversed with him for years, that obviously he knows and experiences what he is talking about.

[windblown]

I used to have a friend that was a spiritual snob! She thought she was on such a high level and used to look down on me with a pitying smile. she was in very tight with the qigong teacher at the Shaolin school in town. I tried to be friends with her but she was distant and cold and kept to her own race. Whatever...racism is alive and prevalent today...Then it was announced that she was to go to China with one of the enlightened Bhuddhist monks that came to the spiritual talk sessions after class. I congradulated her and she ignored me. Later I was jealous and was talking to another friend about her and this other friend said very matter of factly... She thinks she has to travel all the way to China with a Bhuddist teacher and become enlightened while giving up her husband and family and job and everything else she has here...when the truth of it is...she does not have to go anywhere....becauae the Bhudda nature is already inside her as it is in each of us. There is nowhere to go, there is nothing to do...we have it all inside of us...right here, right now.

[xabir2005]

Here is another article by thusness also very much in his own words about his own insights: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

[Jeff]

The Buddha, and basically all authentic Buddhist teachers, are fond of guiding practitioners to the highest degree of awareness. I would think he is not genuine, or have ulterior motives, if he does not have such intentions to lead their students all the way. Only some selfish master who wants to hide something from his student so he could retain his position, instead of giving away all that he knows, would do that sort of thing.

 

As for Thusness, he speaks from true experience. How do I know? Because I've gone through the same stages as him and documented them in my ejournal: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html

 

It is silly to think of ulterior motives - what can it possibly be for someone not getting any personal benefit out of this?

 

Xabir2005,

 

Thank you for your posts and the description of the Thusness stages. The information was new to me. Some of my experiences have been similar and If you don't mind, I have some questions...

 

In the Thusness descriptions, level 5 is the full shift to non-dual perspective. Have you experienced it? At this point, in your understanding, is there only the present moment (no sense of time)?

 

Also, did you experience level 2 and level 3 to actually be two different states. Or, is it really just two sides of the same coin? I am "everything" or I am "nothing" seem to be more about the perspective that you are viewing from.

 

Do you perceive level 6 & 7 as ongoing levels or observations of perceived non-duality?

 

Do you still experience Anger? Did it drop at a perceived level?

 

Finally, as you have progressed, have you noticed a difference between the states of "feeling it" and truly "knowing it"?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

[Ambrose_Bierce]

A true guide does not guide.

A true student does not follow.

A true follower can never learn anything worth studying.

 

 

Years ago, i wrote this in my journal: It is not the Teacher who manifests before you what you perceive to be an awakening, but the awakening within you which manifests what you perceive as a Teacher(s).

 

In other words, as the senses become more purified and filters are dismantled one by one, then one's vision gradually become clearer, and in that clarity, often one gets to see how one can derive great delight from surrendering to simplicity, something which comes from sustaining a patient and humble practice. This recognition can only touch us as profoundly as we are willing to let go of our resistance. Once the barriers come down, everything can be our Teacher, since wisdom cannot fail but recognizes itself always.

 

 

A long time ago I would have asked proof or examples of this.

 

My conclusion is that everyone is not aware of everything. So, my friend I must try to "tweak" these ideas a bit.

 

We depend upon others for what we do not see. Only in this respect are they teachers. Windows to our own mind and condition, and sometimes even seeing things we do not.

In turn there arwe things we may show sensitivity to that they do not.

 

It is my opinion that these things that others are aware of are not in existence of purely sense or of mind. They are beyond these mundane concepts.

 

Someone may be sensitive to peoples feelings. Another may be sensitive to electronic equipment. Nothing is wrong, everything is different.

[xabir2005]

[Jeff]

hi, maybe you can share your experiences as well.

 

as I am using phone I will take some time maybe a couple of posts to answer your question. But first I would like to clarify that those stages pertain to insight rather than mere experiences. Realization is permanent, experiences without insight aren't.

 

Thank you for your response. No hurry, feel free to wait for a keyboard. Very impressive on a phone.

 

I would be happy to share (or answer any questions). I believe we are in agreement on our definitions. Your definition of insight=my understanding. Your realization = my knowing. For me, to "know" is permanent realization. I just seem to have an in between stage where I "feel" it. "Feeling" includes some level of "experience".

 

Also, if it would be easier, feel free to email.

 

Thanks.

[Ambrose_Bierce]

[Birch]

Hello K,

 

I never said I was enlightened. I'm only enlightened if you say I'm not. I'd say that it's often a paradox, in order for one to truly begin to achieve awareness, they often must have a desire for greater awareness, but in achieving greater awareness, they must also learn to let that desire go.

 

If you don't wish to be enlightened, well it's too late, you already are, you're just not aware of it. I mean this honestly, the enlightened you is living and breathing here and now, but there is no requirement for you to become aware of this at all, you can go forth, raise a family, have children, buy a car, walk in the park, do whatever you want to do. When it is time, you will know it, then you will begin to search for it, then once you've searched long enough, you will understand that there was nothing to search for in the first place.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I hope that's not too evasive, but there is no right answer to what you're asking. The right answer is really only the answer you believe is right.

Thanks Aaron. I know what you're saying. I feel it a little bit more "omg, can't go back" but I guess I'll get over it ( as usual).

Now if you could just help me get everyone back to normal, that would help enormously. I'm fed up with the enlightened people:-)

[Aaron]

I still havnt seen anyone enlightened on here with enough practical knowledge to understand and apply this.

 

We have seen people who claimed things then did other things that were not in line with their understanding.

 

Non-Dual understanding should not be misunderstood for experience and non-experience when learning. If someone is fully non-dual one is englightened and relies upon instant knowing, instant feeling, instant... No one here has that so conversation is digressed to the mundane.

 

Good. You are obviously an authority that can authenticate our experiences. We need that, otherwise everyone could say they were enlightened, and then who would know who to follow and who not to? Imagine the chaos of a world of people who did not simply know what they were supposed to do as defined by over 2,000 years of ideology and religion. This is a grand thing indeed and I look forward to more of your insight, because I was worried that we would not have anyone capable of discerning true enlightenment as defined by the authorities and mundane enlightenment! I can breathe easily now.

 

Thank you,

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Thanks Aaron. I know what you're saying. I feel it a little bit more "omg, can't go back" but I guess I'll get over it ( as usual).

Now if you could just help me get everyone back to normal, that would help enormously. I'm fed up with the enlightened people:-)

 

You're welcome Kate. I think we should throw normal out the window and just let them be who they want to be. Occasionally you may need to help someone with a reality check, but I'll leave that up to you to decide when that is needed. As for me, I am fine where I am and I hope you are fine where you are.

 

Aaron

Edited September 14, 2011 by Twinner

[Birch]

Thanks Aaron!

I don't think I can do reality checks for anyone really. I can only tell them the way I see it.