Is this Orthodox Buddhism?

[Taiji Bum]

Everything I know about Buddhism I learned in the past few days reading the William Bodri book MEASURING MEDITATION. I'd like to know the orthodox view on a few things. I am not looking for a deep discussion. I just want to know if these things are common knowledge for the average Buddhist?

 

1- Are the 5 Skandhas taught?

2- Is Prajna Wisdom taught?

3- Is the dharmakaya, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya taught?

 

Thanks,

Darin

[Harmonious Emptiness]

They are all mentioned in different forms of Buddhism, but the way they are spoken of in the way they should be approached tends to differ between Tibetan/Mahayana and Zen/Chan.

 

The actual definitions of #3 can also differ between schools/traditions.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Andrei]

[C T]

Excellent book. Alan Watts presented a sparkling intro in the foreword.

[forestofclarity]

Darin,

 

You'll find that all Buddhist schools generally agree on the Four Noble truths, the four dharma/dhamma seals, and dependent origination.

 

The Four Noble Truths (paraphrased):

1. There is suffering.

2. Craving is the cause of suffering.

3. The end of craving is the end of suffering.

4. The end of craving is achieved through the Eightfold Path: Skillful View, Thought, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, Mindfulness, and Concentration.

 

This path is also divided into three: sila (discipline), samadhi (meditation), and panna (which grows from the others).

 

The Four Dharma seals:

1. All things are impermanent.

2. All things are unsatisfying.

3. All things are not self.

4. Nirvana alone is peace.

 

Some schools teach the skandhas, and some don't. Some teach the bodies, and some don't.

 

A good primer on Chinese Chan is: Orthodox Chinese Buddhism

[konchog uma]

They are all mentioned in different forms of Buddhism, but the way they are spoken of in the way they should be approached tends to differ between Tibetan/Mahayana and Zen/Chan.

 

The actual definitions of #3 can also differ between schools/traditions.

 

yeah i would add that the body of buddhist thought is very vast. Depending on the teacher, different things are focused on.

 

i can also tell about my own experience. I think if you study any sect of buddhism from books or a teacher for long enough, you get to the skandhas. In my own experience, i was in discussion early on about the aggregate nature of self, but didn't learn the 5 skandhas as such til years later. (i study in drikung-kagyu school under khenchen konchog gyaltshen rinpoche.) i was also introduced to prajna and prajnaparamita (the perfection of transcendent wisdom) very early, and the sutras regarding those were focused on in my tradition from the beginning of study. as to the third question, the trikaya or three body doctrine was never emphasized greatly in my school, although it was mentioned. So that is just my experience.

 

i would say as a rough answer to your question, prajna, which can mean just 'higher consciousness' is common to all schools of buddhism, most beginners know of prajna. skandhas and trikaya are more advanced philosophical concepts so some buddhists might know about them, but not all buddhists do.

[Ambrose_Bierce]

*scratches chin*

 

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii... just dont know.

 

 

Might be pair o' docs Buddhism.

 

A question is a question.

A question asked for ones own purpose is just like good deeds for ones own gain.

 

We may have a purpose, often the universe has another.

 

Peace friends.

[XieJia]

*scratches chin*

 

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii... just dont know.

 

Might be pair o' docs Buddhism.

 

A question is a question.

A question asked for ones own purpose is just like good deeds for ones own gain.

 

We may have a purpose, often the universe has another.

 

Peace friends.

 

Hence the 84,000 dharmas;

Well said, Well said!

There are alot of nice Buddhists here.

 

Without question, without purpose; where are we?

 

@Dear Darin

 

I am still sleeping but thus is what I have heard.

I would try to put it into something easily digest.

Though things can be said; the things you are looking for are not taught or said.

 

Dive in and witness the Present nature of the experience; this is the 5 skandhas.

Skandhas means Vessels; the 5 vessels of self.

 

Prajna Wisdom, the undoing of Ignorance; in it self it is the same. It is easier to view it as a elastic band; Ignorance is the pulling, Prajna is the relaxing of the pulling. Without Ignorance, there can be no Wisdom.

 

dharmakaya, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya have many names in different tradition but it's the same thing; all can be directly related and coherent to what Sir forestofemptiness shared.

Buddhism -> directly means Knowing-ism (Knowing can be a bit misled).

As Sir Ambrose pointed out; different illness have different medicines and cures. There is no use in taking Ginseng to cure an upset stomach. Everything is surmised in Sir Ambrose's post.

My advice to you is to forget what you read, forget what you learned.

Knowing that the universe are experienced through your six senses and slowly work from there.

Examine things as it happens; whether internal or external.

Thus is what I have heard

Goodluck on your journey

I am a fool, a fool is me.

If you can see the fool, you can see me.

You will become a fool, you will become me.

I am a fool, a fool is me.

Knowing the fool is Knowing me.

Then where is the fool?, where is me?

where are you?

Edited September 14, 2011 by XieJia

[xabir2005]

Everything I know about Buddhism I learned in the past few days reading the William Bodri book MEASURING MEDITATION. I'd like to know the orthodox view on a few things. I am not looking for a deep discussion. I just want to know if these things are common knowledge for the average Buddhist?

 

1- Are the 5 Skandhas taught?

2- Is Prajna Wisdom taught?

3- Is the dharmakaya, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya taught?

 

Thanks,

Darin

All schools teach 1 and 2.

 

As for 3, theravada buddhism mentions only dhammakaya. All mahayana and vajrayana schools teach three bodies.

[xabir2005]

yeah i would add that the body of buddhist thought is very vast. Depending on the teacher, different things are focused on.

 

i can also tell about my own experience. I think if you study any sect of buddhism from books or a teacher for long enough, you get to the skandhas. In my own experience, i was in discussion early on about the aggregate nature of self, but didn't learn the 5 skandhas as such til years later. (i study in drikung-kagyu school under khenchen konchog gyaltshen rinpoche.) i was also introduced to prajna and prajnaparamita (the perfection of transcendent wisdom) very early, and the sutras regarding those were focused on in my tradition from the beginning of study. as to the third question, the trikaya or three body doctrine was never emphasized greatly in my school, although it was mentioned. So that is just my experience.

 

i would say as a rough answer to your question, prajna, which can mean just 'higher consciousness' is common to all schools of buddhism, most beginners know of prajna. skandhas and trikaya are more advanced philosophical concepts so some buddhists might know about them, but not all buddhists do.

actually skandhas are basic buddhism.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Everything I know about Buddhism I learned in the past few days reading the William Bodri book MEASURING MEDITATION. I'd like to know the orthodox view on a few things. I am not looking for a deep discussion. I just want to know if these things are common knowledge for the average Buddhist?

 

1- Are the 5 Skandhas taught?

2- Is Prajna Wisdom taught?

3- Is the dharmakaya, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya taught?

 

Thanks,

Darin

Sorry this isn't related to what you asked, but I was wondering since I wanted to purchase this e-book: How extensive is each topic? Are they more extensive then what's covered on his site?

 

Alot of his site deals with some of this stuff already, though it looks pretty exhaustive and more in deph than from he has on his site:

 

1 The Challenge of Correctly Measuring and Interpreting Spiritual Progress

Kung-fu Mind-Body Transformations * Prajna Transcendental Wisdom * Avoiding Self-Delusion in Spiritual Cultivation * Direct Experience is Essential

 

2 An Introduction to the Five Skandhas Ranking System

The Selflessness of the Ego and Phenomena * The True Meaning of Religious Practice * Form Skandha * Sensation Skandha * Conception Skandha * Volition Skandha * Consciousness Skandha * Transforming, Purifying, or Exhausting the Skandhas * Cessation-Contemplation and Zen * Using the Skandhas in Cultivation * Four Cultivation Truths

 

3 The Taoist Time Requirements for Spiritual Kung-fu and the Consecutive Stages of Spiritual Attainment

The Five Elements Schema * 8 Sensations * The Three Realms * Tao and Longevity * Jing * Chi * Shen * Why the 5 Elements Transform in the Order That They Do * The 9 Year Transformation Sequence for the Physical Components of the Body * Taoist Jing-Chi-Shen Transformations Explain the Spiritual Path * Laying the Foundation, Pregnancy, Suckling the Baby, Facing the Wall * Inedia in Christianity and Hinduism * Proper Fasting Practice Instructions * 100 Day Bigu Fasting Practice * 9 Year Bigu Fasting Practice * The 5 Requirements for Becoming Immortal * Ghost-Human-Earthly-Heavenly-Spiritual Immortals * Shakyamuni's Analysis of Immortality Techniques * I-Ching * The Many Spiritual Measurement Systems You Need to Learn

 

4 Twelve Enlightening Case Studies: An Analysis of the Spiritual Progress and Problems Faced by People Practicing Meditation

The Kundalini Experience * The Importance of Using Tao and Longevity as a Reference * (1) HUMANITIES PROFESSOR * Fan Chi or Wind Chi * Sensations in the Legs * Meditation Reveals Latent Illnesses * (2) HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER * Fixing Problems Revealed through Meditation * Semblance Dharma * (3) ARTIST-TEACHER * Cultivation and Mental Illness * The Du-yin Shadow Consciousness * Chi at the Back of the Head * (4) PSYCHOLOGIST * Feeling Chi Sensations in the Body * (5) COMPUTER SCIENTIST * Strong Vitality and Sexual Activity on the Path * The Number of Chi Channels in the Body * The Importance of the Left Big Toe in Meditation * Spontaneous Movements * Incendium Amoris is Christian Kundalini * Pranayama * Sounds in the Head * Saint Francis of Assisi * An Explanation of Biblical Superpowers * (6) ARTIST * The Stage of Not Needing Sleep * Fullness of Jing, Chi and Shen * (7) SCIENTIST * (8) ACTRESS * Dreams of Flying * Poltergeists * (9) PSYCHOLOGIST * (10) LIBRARIAN * Excessive Damp Heat in the Body * (11) HOUSEWIFE AFTER MENOPAUSE * Cycles of Human Development * (12) PSYCHIATRIST * Seeing a Blue Diamond * Twenty-Five Doors to Meditation Reveals Many Meditation Techniques * Zen Master Hakuin Cures Himself with the So Cream Meditation * The Cardinal Spiritual Principle of Practice

 

5 The Five Aggregates Schema and the Various Levels of Consciousness

A Discussion of the Five Aggregates * The Stories of Vasubandhu and Asanga * Form Skandha * The Four Elements and Space * The Agglomeration of Form * The Parinispanna, Paratantra and Parikalpita Natures * Perceptible Form * Imperceptible Form * The Five Sense Organs * Ching-se Sentient Matter * The Three Natures of Reality * The True Nature of Reality * Sensation Skandha * Sri Yukteswar's Yang Shen Emanation Body and Jesus' Resurrection Body * Conception Skandha * Enlightened People are Aware During Dreams * Volition Skandha * Behavior and the Spiritual Path * Emptiness of Phenomena * 10 Omnipresent Factors * 11 Virtuous Mental Events * 6 Root Afflictions * 5 Deviant Perspectives * 20 Secondary Afflictions * 4 Variable Mental Events * Shen Tsan Helps Educate His Teacher * Non-associated Motivational Forces * States of No-Mind * Boundaries of the Skandhas * Consciousness Skandha * The 8 Consciousnesses * Sleeping, Death and Leaving Samadhi * The First Six Consciousnesses * The Seventh Consciousness * 4 Ego-centered Notions * The Eighth Alaya Consciousness * Xuan Zang in The Journey to the West * Avalokiteshvara's Meditation Method of Hearing * The Dharmadhatu and Tathagatagarbha * Reviewing the Five Skandhas * Great Mirror Wisdom * Equality Wisdom * Analytical Wisdom of Discernment * All-Accomplishing Action Wisdom * Spiritual Cultivation From the Aspect of the Skandhas

 

6 How to Correctly Interpret a Zen Master's Progressive Attainments

Vimalakirti Scolds Purnamaitrayaniputra * Han Shan Breaks Through the Form Skandha * Merit, Sexual Discipline, Emptiness * Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi * Guang Qin * Hui-Tzu is Found Inside a Tree Cultivating Samadhi * How To Arouse Someone From the State of Samadhi * Bodhisattva Candraprabha * Rainbow Bodies

 

7 The Spiritual Accomplishments of Four Famous Tibetan Adepts: Yeshe Tsogyel, Milarepa, Gampopa, and Machig Labdron

LADY YESHE TSOGYEL * Eight Severe Austerity Practices * When Chi Flows Cannot Meet * Master T'ien-wang Wu Floats on a Lotus Flower * Fa-jung of Ox Head Mountain * Jesus Disperses the Crowd of Stoning * Cultivation Tests * Return to Maidenhood and the Woman's Road of Cultivation * Confucius' Sequence of Cultivation Progress * MILAREPA * Kundalini Cultivation * Heavenly, Earthly and Human Dan * Food Intake During Cultivation * Wei Po-Yang's Explanation of Cultivation * Shape Shifting Versus the Yang Shen * GAMPOPA * Zen Master Huai-jang and Ma-tsu * The Complete Enlightenment Sutra and Immediate Enlightenment * Bliss, Illumination and No-Thought * Renewing the Brain * MACHIG LABDRON * Tibetan Empowerments and Real Initiations * Foundations of Chod

 

8 Kundalini Yoga, the Four Stages of Intensified Practice, and the Five Overall

Phases of the Spiritual Path

Kundalini in Chinese Culture * The Stage of Preparatory Practices * The 4 Steps of Prayoga * Stage of Warming * Stage of the Peak * Stage of Forbearance * Stage of Highest Worldly Dharma * How to Grade Yoga Achievements with the Four Stages of Prayoga * Empowerments * Cultivating Chi Through Breathing Practices * The Big Knife Wind * Makhafa Path of Islam and Way of Margaret in Christianity * The Equation of Spiritual Progress * Sexual Desire and Sexual Cultivation * Step-by-Step Spiritual Transformation

 

9 Essential Cultivation Principles Which Few People are Ever Taught

God, Buddha Nature, Allah and Other Equivalent Terms * The Three Buddha Bodies * Dharmakaya * Sambhogakaya * Nirmanakaya * How to Cultivate the Full Three Enlightenment Bodies * The Ceaseless Transformations of the Universe * The Characteristics of Form and Ultimate Nature * Nagarjuna's and Avalokiteshvara's Negations * Existence and Nonexistence * Ontology and Spiritual Practice * Behavior as the Ground, Means and Fruit of the Path * The Nature of Conscious Thought * Merit, Wisdom and Discipline Requirements in Spiritual Cultivation * Some Various Roads of Cultivation Practice

 

10 The Meditative Realms of the Nine Samadhi Absorptions

The Definition of Samadhi and Dhyana * Tien-tai 's Six Steps for Cultivating Samadhi * General Characteristics of the Dhyana * First Dhyana * Factors Inhibiting Samadhi * Methods for Attaining One-pointedness * Dhyana Stages of Joy and Bliss * Retreat Practice * Discipline Required of the Path * Desire Realm Heavens and Inhabitants * Ching-an State of Pre-Samadhi * Alexandrine Gnosticism * Second Dhyana * Third Dhyana * Fourth Dhyana * How Other Spiritual Schools Describe the Four Dhyana * The 5 Eyes of Wisdom * Various States of No-mind or No-Thought * Bardo States * The Four Formless Samadhi Absorptions * Samadhi of Infinite Space * Peach Blossom Enlightenment * Samadhi of Infinite Consciousness * Samadhi of Nothingness * Samadhi of No-Thought * Samadhi of Neither Thought Nor No-Thought * Edgar Cayce, Rudolf Steiner, Meister Eckhart, Padre Pio * Hakuin and Master Dokyo * Zen master Hseuh-tou Ch'in * Samadhi of Extinction * The Arhat's Fractional Nirvana of Remaining Dependency * When an Arhat Passes Away * Other Samadhi Attainments * Drowsiness * Buddhism as a Guide to Cultivation * Iron Ox Master Tieh Nieu * Stupid Emptiness Samadhi

 

11 Purifying the Skandhas and the Fifty Great Spiritual Paths of Delusion

Form Skandha Phenomena * Sensation Skandha Phenomena * Conception Skandha * Yang Shen Body * Eyes and Seeing * Clarity Within Dreams * Zen Misconceptions * Volition Skandha * Surveying Past Lives * The Whirling Force of Life * Consciousness Skandha * Buddha Gives Specific Warnings About the Paths of Delusion * 5 Skandha Pollutions * Complete Cultivation * Transmitting Spiritual Teachings * The Creation of Consciousness and the World * Gradually Exhausting the Skandhas

 

12 The Internal Principles of Cessation and Contemplation Are Embodied Within All Genuine Spiritual Practices

Yogacara and Consciousness-Only * Sandhinirmocana Sutra * Mahakashyapa Teaches Ananda * Nirvana Sutra * The 4 Methods of Cessation and Contemplation * 25 Variations of Cessation, Contemplation and Dhyana Practice * Zen Master Yung-ming's Lesson on Cessation and Contemplation

 

13 The Road of Tantric Cultivation for Opening the Sushumna Central Channel

Esoteric Practice Focuses on Things Outside of the Mind * The 7 Major Chakras * Chi Channels, Chi Flows, Habit Energies, and Superpowers * The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine * Various Schools Discuss the Chi and Chi Channels * An Introduction to Tibetan Esoteric Practices * The Tantric Tradition * Padmasambhava * The Resultant and Causal Vehicles * Stigmata * Master Tsong Khapa * The Yoga of Marks * The Yoga Without Marks * Generation and Completion Stage Yogas * The Stage of Generation * The Stage of Completion * Specialization of the Tantras * A Short Analysis of the Tantric Tradition * When Chi Enters the Central Channel * Biophysics of the Cultivation Path * The Four Blisses * The Four Empties * Ways of Accidentally Seeing the Tao * Signs that Chi is Entering the Central Channel * Useful Cultivation Practices * Sexual Cultivation * Consciousness Rides on Chi * Drops * Tibetan Bardo Yogas * Comparing Spiritual Schools and Their Stages of Cultivation * Incorruptibility and Sariras * Requesting Enlightened Beings to Help You in Your Cultivation * Matching the Esoteric and Orthodox Paths

 

14 The Great Learning, Confucian Cultivation, and the Way to Actualize Universal Salvation

Blind Faith and Superstition * Confucian Cultivation * Tan Fu and Moses * The Chinese Exodus * The Great Learning * Ming De Bright Virtue * Qin Min Loving the People * Zhi Resting in the Highest Good * The Seven Step Confucian Process for Attaining Samadhi * Transforming the World with Personal Spiritual Cultivation * Bringing Peace to the World Through the Mastery of Self-Cultivation * Purifying Your Behavior * Modern Science Lags Behind Cultivation Science * The Path Ahead

 

Appendix The "Warning to Cultivators" Chapter of the Surangama Sutra

 

Edited September 14, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[forestofclarity]

Actually, that is not true. Theoretically, perhaps, but not in practice.

 

VERY few practitioners teach the 5 skandhas in the U.S. I only learned it through Bhante G's center.

 

The teachings on paper are not the same as the teachings in the flesh.

 

All schools teach 1 and 2.

[Taiji Bum]

Sorry this isn't related to what you asked, but I was wondering since I wanted to purchase this e-book: How extensive is each topic? Are they more extensive then what's covered on his site?

 

A

 

Its pretty extensive but also hard to read. He needs an editor.

[XieJia]

I would like to second Forest's statement and acknowledge Xabir's post.

 

Even over here in Thailand;

 

Buddhism is all over the place as well.

 

There are those that rejects Buddhism and view it as unusable tradition.

 

There are those that, follows tradition; what they do is just give merit, build monastery to uphold the Sangha hoping to get acquire good merits. - Most Thais are here...

 

There are those that preach and studys the literatures and only of the literatures.

 

There are those that practices and managed to obtain Samadhi but yet still they are astray, and though they acquire powers; they are unable to eliminate their fetters.

 

There are those that practices, obtained Samadhi and managed to breakthrough it to Vipassana; wisdom to cut away the fetters. And hence the different stages of enlightenment.

 

The Masters here; mostly in the Theravada tradition.

Despite the different traditions, the enlightened masters preach the same thing. The Three Vehicles is fused into One whether Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana -> Bodhiyana

 

I hope to provide you guys with some perspectives from Thailand (Where we would like to claim that we are a Buddhist country; there will be a big change that will threaten our way of life soon though but that's just life ).

 

From my experience, I shared my views with forest about learning; paper and fleshes.

But I am not saying that Paper is not important or that it is useless.

Edited September 14, 2011 by XieJia

[Simple_Jack]

Actually, that is not true. Theoretically, perhaps, but not in practice.

 

VERY few practitioners teach the 5 skandhas in the U.S. I only learned it through Bhante G's center.

 

The teachings on paper are not the same as the teachings in the flesh.

Well, that has to do more with what's being taught by the individual teachers themselves, than what is taught in the scriptures. Either way, the question was whether 5 skandhas were taught in Orthodox Buddhism; which the answer would be yes, it is taught in Orthodox Buddhism (and it is something that people who follow Vajrayana should know about too; since they also follow the teachings of Buddha.)

[rex]

VERY few practitioners teach the 5 skandhas in the U.S. I only learned it through Bhante G's center.

I learnt about the five skandhas on a Rigpa course. Here's a link to a guided meditaion on the five skandhas:

 

http://www.zamstore....oducts_id=13077

[xabir2005]

I would like to second Forest's statement and acknowledge Xabir's post.

 

Even over here in Thailand;

 

Buddhism is all over the place as well.

 

There are those that rejects Buddhism and view it as unusable tradition.

 

There are those that, follows tradition; what they do is just give merit, build monastery to uphold the Sangha hoping to get acquire good merits. - Most Thais are here...

 

There are those that preach and studys the literatures and only of the literatures.

 

There are those that practices and managed to obtain Samadhi but yet still they are astray, and though they acquire powers; they are unable to eliminate their fetters.

 

There are those that practices, obtained Samadhi and managed to breakthrough it to Vipassana; wisdom to cut away the fetters. And hence the different stages of enlightenment.

 

The Masters here; mostly in the Theravada tradition.

Despite the different traditions, the enlightened masters preach the same thing. The Three Vehicles is fused into One whether Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana -> Bodhiyana

 

I hope to provide you guys with some perspectives from Thailand (Where we would like to claim that we are a Buddhist country; there will be a big change that will threaten our way of life soon though but that's just life ).

 

From my experience, I shared my views with forest about learning; paper and fleshes.

But I am not saying that Paper is not important or that it is useless.

I see you are from Thailand. Does that mean you are Theravadin?

[konchog uma]

actually skandhas are basic buddhism.

 

oh okay thanks

[XieJia]

I see you are from Thailand. Does that mean you are Theravadin?

 

Hard to say; by names and classic definition.

 

My living-teachers follows that of the Theravadin.

You could say I am a Theravadin.

 

I consider Hui-Neng and Huang Po also my masters and tries to put their teachings into practice.

You could say I am a Mahayanist.

 

My inspirations and teachings comes from that of the Buddha.

You could say I am a Buddhist.

 

I don't really see that much differences in the vehicles, I don't believe it existed during Gautama Buddha's time.

 

Hard to say