Harmonious Emptiness Posted September 14, 2011 Intellectual percolations here... I'm going to say that there is Earthly Enlightenment, and there is Celestial Enlightenment. Earthly is seeing the true reality of ego dust ( you like that term ? You can use it... ? Celestial Enlightenment is Rainbow Body et all To stop playing and living in make believe... this is, imo, the first goal towards peace and harmony and Earthly Enlightenment To know "primary enlightenment" (made that one up m'self...) is more than enough to change the hegemonic consciousness towards wisdom.. ?? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 14, 2011 Thus I have heard; maybe enlightenment exist maybe it don't what two could be one, for one is realised and known by the two. seeing the dust attach to the mirror and the mirror attach to the dust. what does dust see when it look at the mirror? what is mirror is dust, what is dust is mirror. thus how can dust be dust, how can mirror be mirror? when one sees, there's only the one that is being seen. Maybe the make-believe is the playing and living; there is no playing or living outside of that. Thus is what I have heard. Who knows, I don't know. What is it then that knows? Silence is still a sound is it not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 14, 2011 Silence is still a sound is it not? Is silence still a sound if there is no ear not to hear? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted September 14, 2011 Thus I have heard; maybe enlightenment exist maybe it don't what two could be one, for one is realised and known by the two. seeing the dust attach to the mirror and the mirror attach to the dust. what does dust see when it look at the mirror? what is mirror is dust, what is dust is mirror. thus how can dust be dust, how can mirror be mirror? when one sees, there's only the one that is being seen. Maybe the make-believe is the playing and living; there is no playing or living outside of that. Thus is what I have heard. Who knows, I don't know. What is it then that knows? Silence is still a sound is it not? what happens when mirror breaks and there's no mirror? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) By ego dust, I mean that it is dust-- it lands on the mirror and it gets blown away.. it is not part of the mirror; though if you want to say that it is because it's on the mirror, ok, but really it's just sitting on there until it gets blown away and one realizes that it is in fact not part of the mirror. What is the mirror? The mirror is the Truth of what is real and what is not. Edited September 14, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 14, 2011 @Steve @xabir2005 thus is what I have heard dust see dust in the mirror mirror see itself by the dust when there's no dust; there's no mirror how can mirror still be mirror? what is there to reflect? @Harmonious When there isn't falsehood; where is the truth? Right Views is the undoing of the Wrong Views. As Sila, Samadhi (Concentration) and Prajna (Panna or Wisdom) is the undoing of Desire, Anger and Ignorance. How can anything exist independently? other than the Conditioned dependent of itself. How could one say that this exist, not exist, or either exist or not exist? Thus is what I have heard. Goodluck to all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted September 14, 2011 mirror see itself by the dust when there's no dust; there's no mirror how can mirror still be mirror? what is there to reflect? something to think about. my thoughts: When the mirror sees dust it thinks it is dust. When no dust, the mirror sees Everything/Truth @Harmonious When there isn't falsehood; where is the truth? Everywhere Right Views is the undoing of the Wrong Views. As Sila, Samadhi (Concentration) and Prajna (Panna or Wisdom) is the undoing of Desire, Anger and Ignorance. How can anything exist independently? other than the Conditioned dependent of itself. Exactly. How can the these egos, or false-egos if we prefer, exist other than by ideas, views, beliefs, all of which are perhaps the most dependent and impermanent of all phenomena. How could one say that this exist, not exist, or either exist or not exist? No sense trying to answer unanswerable questions I think. Thus is what I have heard. Goodluck to all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) @xabir2005 thus is what I have heard but do you also know this directly?dust see dust in the mirrormirror see itself by the dust not bad. This is non dual case two: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/01/three-levels-of-understanding-of-non.html To understand case three you need to realize anatta. when there's no dust; there's no mirror how can mirror still be mirror? what is there to reflect? your statement is not bad, but it is still thusness stage 4 and not 5 of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html . Therefore your answer still cannot pass this koan: Xue Feng said, “To comprehend this matter, it is similar to the ancient mirror – Hu comes, Hu appears; Han comes, Han appears.” Xuan Sha heard this and said, “Suddenly the mirror is broken, then how?” “Hu and Han both disappear.” Xuan Sha said, “Old monk’s heels have not touched ground yet.” Jian says instead, “Hu and Han are ready-made.” Edited September 15, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 14, 2011 Haha, I got a chuckle from that. +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 Must be pointing at deduction. Finding the answer without answering what it is, but finding what it is not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) This is saying that the old monk is still sleeping and Hu and Han are the obvious suspects. Big Deal? The old monk says the way is like an all reflecting mirror awareness where phenomena are revealed exactly as it is in it. Xuan sha is however trying to point the experience of breaking the mirror, which would be the realization of anatta. This is as thusness said, no mirror reflecting, manifestation alone is. Xue feng and xuan sha are at different stages. Edited September 15, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) The old monk says the way is like an all reflecting mirror awareness where phenomena are revealed exactly as it is in it. Xue feng is however trying to point the experience of breaking the mirror, which would be the realization of anatta. This is as thusness said, no mirror reflecting, manifestation alone is. Which the only way to discover that is through deduction. You can only ever see the reflection in this regards. Illusion of self is represented by the mirror. As the illusion of self is represented within the reflection of the moon in a pale of water in another story. Tell more stories xabir or anyone who wants too! ^.^ Edited September 15, 2011 by Informer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted September 15, 2011 Which the only way to discover that is through deduction. You can only ever see the reflection in this regards. Illusion of self is represented by the mirror. As the illusion of self is represented within the reflection of the moon in a pale of water in another story. Tell more stories xabir or anyone who wants too! ^.^ To discover it no deductions is required... But an experiential realization Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 To discover it no deductions is required... But an experiential realization You break the mirror then what is left? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 15, 2011 Hahaha me like the way this thread is going. Though I am not familiar with a Koan tradition. Let me try... Dust is dust Mirror is mirror mirror itself, the dust. dust itself, the mirror. The two comes together stands together goes together How can we be partial and wipe the mirror? both are dusts, both are mirrors what is there to see when two mirrors reflects? dust and mirror becomes one, what does one goes to? @Xabir There's some realisation but yet to pass through the gate. I still see myself outside. I am still partial between the Dukkha, Anitjun, Anatta. @Informer +1 hahaha Goodluck to one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 15, 2011 You break the mirror then what is left? dusts! from the shattered mirror... and maybe some shards.... you almost got me there too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 Hahaha me like the way this thread is going. Though I am not familiar with a Koan tradition. Let me try... Dust is dust Mirror is mirror mirror itself, the dust. dust itself, the mirror. The two comes together stands together goes together How can we be partial and wipe the mirror? both are dusts, both are mirrors what is there to see when two mirrors reflects? dust and mirror becomes one, what does one goes to? Infinity! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 dusts! from the shattered mirror... and maybe some shards.... you almost got me there too You are left standing over the broken shards and dusts~! So you admit to breaking the mirror! There was once a reflection that you had thought was you, but it was only a reflection. Where is the reflection now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 Hahaha me like the way this thread is going. Though I am not familiar with a Koan tradition. Hehe, me2, but it seems fun! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) You are left standing over the broken shards and dusts~! So you admit to breaking the mirror! There was once a reflection that you had thought was you, but it was only a reflection. Where is the reflection now? with dust and the broken shards... the answer is there but i dare not speak. @Harmonious Emptiness I am replying to your thread, but I am too lazy to add a new reply. In my experience, what you said is true; I can't deny any of that. From my experience, there are only Buddhism and not such and such schools; I don't think the Gautama Buddha ever want this. There can be no-selves in the pride/vanity/conceit as well as there can be no-selves in the Boddhisatva-like qualities. The Boddhisatva-qualities are the anatta version of the pride/vanity/conciet. When such is seen and experience all can be let go, such as letting go of the Dharma. When the fetters are uprooted, the tools for the uprooting is only good for that job. Keeping it will only be a fetter aswell. People with higher realizations struggle with even more fetters, for it is more that they see. For if the self-arised any way, they do have to be become; this is done up to the process of extreme enlightenment -> become a Buddha that is. I wish you goodluck and wisdom; it is not that you are far off in anyway. I yet to be there myself aswell. Edited September 15, 2011 by XieJia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) Another question in way of the OP When teachers talk about pride, vanity, conceit... They often talk about these things as though they were the self that does not exist. Now, I wonder, how often are they saying this just so that most people will understand the teaching from their current understanding (not knowing about dependent origination and Emptiness)? I think these ARE the selves that most people need to overcome in order to see Annata, at least they can't see Annata until they have seen the non-reality of these "dusts." I understand that the philosophy and practice go deeper than just this, but really, this seems to be the main obstacle, and one that many people who supposedly had higher realizations still struggle with. No? In fact, it seems to me like the purpose for understanding Annata is arrive at this other realization in order to combat worldly suffering. Maybe this is like a school A vs. school B type thing, but this seems to be the general center of the Buddhist vortex of teachings, imho..... also because without pride/vanity/conceit, there is natural Boddhisatva-like qualities, as well as tranquil outlooks on one's "suffering." Again, Buddhism goes beyond this, and some stages or siddhis might be met before, but it seems to be the door to Buddha Mind in its most earthly rendition. This would make Buddhism rather un-unique in some ways, those unique perhaps in it's central focus.. Okay.. blow it to bits..... Edited September 15, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 I don't think it makes it un-unique at all. It is unique in the way of the path or process. It is selfless to bring yourself to a different perspective that has once been surpased to explain it so that one may understand from that perspective which they hold, for no other reason than to help another. This requires relating, speaking to ego with ego, etc.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) Look up and down. Who is looking up and looking down? What is up and what is down? Edited September 15, 2011 by XieJia 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) What is what is? That is quite an accusation. Edited September 15, 2011 by Informer 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
