Shen Dao or Shenzi

[lienshan]

I do like to give ShenZi a touch of Daoism and a touch of Legalism; though I need to read his work.

These two (no 28 and no 29) of his texts are about Teh 德 and Tao 道 :

 

夫德 精微而不見聰明而不發

是故外物不累其內

 

The 德 essence is small and doesn't see intelligent light and doesn't send out.

Therefore does the outside matter not involve its inside.

 

夫道

所以使賢無奈不肖何也

所以使智無奈愚何也

若此則謂之道勝矣

 

The 道

what use send virtue, has no how not look like what?

what use send knowledge, has no how foolish what?

You can only call it called 道 is better than indeed!

 

Shen Dao or Shenzi is mentioned in Zhuangzi chapter 33 and his writings were thought lost.

The Shanghai museum has in 2007 published some exavacated bamboo slips written by him.

[Marblehead]

Well, that like didn't help me now, did it? Hehehe.

 

I looked for him in Burton Watson's translation of Chuang Tzu and found a couple mentions. I thought this was interesting:

 

Therefore Shen Tao said, "Let me become like those creatures without knowledge, that is enough. Such creatures have no use for the worthies or the sages. Clod-like, they never lose the Way." The great and eminent men would get together and laugh at him, saying, "The teachings of Shen Tao are not rules for the living but ideals for a dead man. No wonder he is looked on as peculiar!"

 

That was in the "Conversations" section. Don't know if we will discuss those when we do our Chuang Tzu study. (Yes, that is still on the table of things to be done.)

 

Do you know if there is an English translation of the text you linked us to?

[lienshan]

[Marblehead]

I haven't thought of Nina for a while. I have talked with her regarding some of her translation of the TTC but I haven't read her translation of Chuang Tzu.

 

I will look at the link later as I have more work to do outside this morning.

 

Thanks!

[XieJia]

I was translating halfway before Lienshan made his reply; Thompson did a good job, I think a lot better than mine.

I don't have access to his text. This is what I found from google:

 

 

I don't think the number is aligned on this one:

http://haquelebac.wo...0%99s-shen-dao/

 

Some kind of essay, I don't have access to Springer's site. Will find a way round.

http://www.springerl...2386n014460208/

 

 

 

Lienshan, I am starting to get the sense from Shenzi's work; and why the author of that Zhuangzi's chapter claimed so. I now understand your point about the different kind of Dao.

The Dao and De used in the context of these two prose is all high and mighty but not usable to a Living; it is such a high ideal.

Let me read the Thompson thingy and we can discuss.

Let me leave you guys with my attempt, I tried to be original but I don't have to ability to stray much from Thompson's and Lienshan's.

 

 

De,

Its small essence can't be conceived.

Its clear brightness can't be emitted.

Is thus why the external doesn't implicate its internal.

 

Dao,

Is the place that send out goodness without asking about the looks.

Is the place that send out wisdom without asking how stupid.

This is to say, such is the greatness of Dao.

 

P.S. Yes, Marblehead. I think it'll be nice if we can do Zhuangzi; there's a lot of people here. Maybe we should ask whether they would join in.

Edited September 14, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

 

P.S. Yes, Marblehead. I think it'll be nice if we can do Zhuangzi; there's a lot of people here. Maybe we should ask whether they would join in.

 

I have already see enough shows of interest that I have already decided to go forward with it.

 

I have asked a member to request a sub-forum under "Taoist Discussions" and asked that they moderate the sub-forum. I wouldn't want to do it myself because it would put limits on how I respond to various posts.

 

I want to get nearly finished with the TTC before starting the Chuang Tzu though. We have time; I have the rest of my life to get it done. Hehehe.

[lienshan]

 

Let me leave you guys with my attempt, I tried to be original

but I don't have to ability to stray much from Thompson's and Lienshan's.

Three or more translations is a great help to the not-reading-chinese readers

 

Xunzi (312-230BC) described Shen Dao or Shenzi in his "Against 12 philosophers" book 6 no 5:

 

Some men honor the principle of law but are themselves without law. They deprecate the principle of "following along with the usages of the past" and are fond of innovation. They obtain a hearing from the ruling class and a following among the unsophisticated. On every occasion their doctrines are perfected in form, well-composed, and fully documented, but if one turns around and closely examines what they say, it turns out to be masterfully grandiose but to lack any basic theme or main topic to which it returns. It is impossible for them to provide a classical norm for the state or to fix social distinctions. Nonetheless some of what they advocate has a rational basis, and their statements have perfect logic, enough indeed to deceive and mislead the ignorant masses. Such men are Shen Dao and Tian Pian.

[XieJia]

@Marblehead

If I could help you finish and wrap up TTC in anyway; please do tell. Thank you and others aswell.

 

@Lienshan

I am halfway through Thompson's Shenzi stuff, will read Xunzi aswell then.

 

I don't found the thing on the Springer and the academia so useful so far. I got access, if anyone want anything from there pm me.

Edited September 14, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

@Marblehead

If I could help you finish and wrap up TTC in anyway; please do tell. Thank you and others aswell.

 

Thanks for the offer. I could rush it but don't want too. Hehehe. I am basically shooting for about four days between each chapter.

 

The three translations I use I have in MSWord so it is no real effort to copy/paste them.

 

I haven't decided on a format for the Chuang Tzu yet. When we get to about TTC Chapter 75 I will be submitting a proposeal to the members and allow enough time for input and suggestions before I finalize the format.

[XieJia]

Finished reading the things on the blog ie. Thompson's and the blogger's translation.

 

Here are my observations:

 

Much as Thompson have already stated 1 - 67 is coherent; I do think the conclusion and leftovers are added.

 

Shenzi is strictly a Legalist; the Dao he associated with is not strictly the same to our Dao. Legalist views things differently, though some concepts can be found in both school of thoughts which is common in all Chinese school of thoughts. I don't think Shenzi is in anyway Daoist according to Thompson's translation, although I could be wrong.

• The later chapters were additions to the scripts; written by his disciple or some other scholar that managed to acquire his text/teachings.

We wouldn't know without going straight to the Chinese text.

 

My other remarks is the Shenzi that the first part of the text is just about the way of antiquity. IMO the middle part's ideas and arguments is similar to each other can could be attributed to 1 or 2 author. The last part I think is the notes of however is copying this text then...

 

IMHO Shenzi's teachings is very useful to an able ruler/minister who can implement it, and uses the laws to balance and govern the state.

In other cases, it is not useful when the ruler/minister are unable. The teachings can only be adapt by able rulers so that they can govern the state and nourish those they governed.

 

I don't think Shenzi is related to Daoism at all, and hence the Daoism we know today is the results of the things being lost in translations and scholar misinterpreting the masters' work. But I am not stating that I am anyway right.

Edited September 14, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

Read most of the Shen Dao.

 

Seems to be an attempt to mellow Confucianism with Taoism.

 

I noticed that the use of "Dao" was that of a verb (the Way), not a noun.

 

I did see some really nice observations in that. Very practicle.

[dawei]

Read most of the Shen Dao.

 

Seems to be an attempt to mellow Confucianism with Taoism.

 

I noticed that the use of "Dao" was that of a verb (the Way), not a noun.

 

I did see some really nice observations in that. Very practicle.

Han historians considered him as a Huang-Lao philosopher; Zhuangzi lists him with Tian Pian and Peng Meng leading up to Lao Zi. The legalist Hanfeizi attributed various ideas to him. This is very reminiscent of a Huang-Lao type of guy.

 

I won't argue his various ideas but I do think it would be better to translate his text here before doing Zhuangzi !

[Marblehead]

I won't argue his various ideas but I do think it would be better to translate his text here before doing Zhuangzi !

 

That would be up to Y'all. If it is felt that this would be a good prelude to Chuang Tzu then go for it. There is still time before we start working with Chuang Tzu and I think doing Shen Dao could be done in conjunction with our work with Lao Tzu.

[dawei]

That would be up to Y'all. If it is felt that this would be a good prelude to Chuang Tzu then go for it. There is still time before we start working with Chuang Tzu and I think doing Shen Dao could be done in conjunction with our work with Lao Tzu.

I want to get through The Water Book. I think a few shorter works would be interesting to do.

[Marblehead]

I want to get through The Water Book. I think a few shorter works would be interesting to do.

 

Yikes! I haven't even started The Water Book yet.

 

The harder I work the behinder I get.

[dawei]

Yikes! I haven't even started The Water Book yet.

 

The harder I work the behinder I get.

I have likewise noticed the longer I am in that subforum the more my english badder

[lienshan]

What I miss is the Shen Dao text on the bamboo slips published by the Shanghai Museum.

 

I thought, that The Chinese Text Project's 'Shenzi' was this text but it isn't