Material desire is Illusion

[Everything]

Do you remember when you were a small kid and you really wanted something. Just thinking about why you wanted it made you want it even more! Then when you got it, you were really dissapointed, felt ashamed for wanting it so much, regret whining for it, and realised that this void within you is still not filled. You are seeking friendship, not objects, but you're too stubborn to admit it. So you convince yourself that this object is not good and there must be something else you do want. If you do not convince yourself of this, other people do it for you! They say "why don't you want this anymore, you wanted it just a minute ago!" While I say to children "It doesn't matter, you never wanted this anyway" and I give them a hug. Thats all they want to hear...

 

It seems that the desire for spiritual is the only real desire that can be fullfilled. Trough friendship and sharing. The toys don't mean shit when it is not shared and shit means everything when it is shared.

 

Don't you guys feel the same way?

 

I realized this during my excersize that I do often. I'm still filled with alot of irrational desires that I can't seem to get rid off. This is what I did:

Today I imagined that I could magicly conjure money into my hands. Then I decided that I would quit all of my work/study efforts to make money, because I could magicly conjure it... So now I opened a website for laptops. I'm crazy about laptops. So I put together a laptop. My dream laptop would be 700 dollars or so... But while dwelling in my fantasy I had infinite money so I no longer looked at the figures or numbers of the price! At first... Slowly I selected the best things I could find, because I wanted the best parts for my laptop. So as I slowly selected more and more stuff, this laptop really got me excited and my desires were raging like maddogs. I even got smiles on my face by selecting the best of the best parts that I did not even knew existed. Pure technical stuff... It gets the nerd out of me. Then slowly as the price came to 10000 dollars the excersize ended, because I realized something shocking...

 

I realized that even with infinite cash the price of materials still bothered me. So I meditated and tried to remember why it bothered me still a bit, I tried to recreate the experience. This is why I bothered me:

I recalled that the price of this material bothered me, not because of my lack of money for it in that fantasy... It bothered me because other people could not enjoy the same thing, it bothered me because I could not share this object with others, it bothered me that other people would want my laptop if I bought it for my self...

 

Conclusion? If I had infinite money, I would never stop buying the whole world this 10,000 dollar laptop untill everyone had one. Only then would I buy myself this laptop. Only then... I have to put my self last, else my heart wont be at peace.

[Ambrose_Bierce]

Yes. Maybe with some momentum eventually life will change.

 

It is just unfortunate that we will have to live with the human cost of others' misteaks.

[Marblehead]

Don't you guys feel the same way?

 

No. But then, I am a materialist so what can I say?

[Everything]

No. But then, I am a materialist so what can I say?

Hehe, maybe saying that material desire being an illusion is taking it too far. Would you atleast give priority over your desire to improve the way you relate to other human beings and yourself over the desire for material objects? Cause in the end, you cannot improve the value of your relationships with objects, but you can improve the value of your objects with relationships.

 

I do like material alot aswell, but I constantly try to challenge this because I want to know if there is another path aswell. You never know what you might discover

So I would still want a laptop, but not the 10,000 one for sure. Even if it were for free. I've already done that so much in my life. You'll just loose your friends and play with your expensive toys alone in a corner. Even if the material is food, you have to share that also. If you always give priority to your own belly coming first you'll find yourself sitting alone on the dinner table. Its like a common pattern. Even though you might have people around you, they wont really eat with you. I've also known alot of rich kids who never can have friendship. At some point in my life I moved in between, having rich lonely friends and poor happy friends. I found that rich people turned their back on poor people because they feel hurt. So they make more rich friends who also don't care about poor people. Even till this day I recall the poor people as always having some admirable character trait while the rich people just had so much unnecesarry suffering without pain in their lifes. Almost as if they were being punished by some mystical force.

[ion]

Not to negat the original post, but to add, I think an aspect of meterielism as it pertains to this thread is status. Even as children, growing up in a highly materiel world, where consumerism is the means of sustenance (economy)toys and other materiel things are amusing on a level but is also about fitting in, and exactly where you fit in.

 

Toys on an objective level breed materielism. Dolls and games at some level are good tools for the mind and immagination.I think what the tao in kids wants though is not toys but tools, and that would be a healthy alternative.

 

When I was doing a lot of work on a place me and my son were staying, he naturaly wanted a hammer and a saw. I went to the store looking for a play toolset, and realized all this plastic garbage was just an image, and it wouldn't hold his real attraction too long.

 

I could try to introduce the garbage to him as "here's ahammer for you, just like daddy's..." but that would be untrue, and it would force him to imagine that it was a hammer and since that is why he would've got bored. To keep doing that excersise with the toys is to breed consumptive materielism. I ended up going to the hardware section and chose a small finishing hammer. He could drive a nail by the time he was two. He would line them up along a board, setting them up in the tiny cracks, then he would drive the nails all the way down.

 

 

 

Toys in excess bores the imagination. In our society where we constantly buy and replace the disposable product, or to replace the last hyped up item for the next one, toys, and the contemporary childs relationship to them is breeding a highly attatched form of disatatchment. A type of disattatchment that is purely ritualistic, and requires a materiel object to let go of and be forgotten, but only for the next most important materiel object that the child only wants because everyone in his collective does or would want.

 

It is more of a cultural attatchment to having toys that makes kids want them. They are also specificly designed to look attractive to a child, and in a culture where buying and status through materiel possesions is expressed, having the next new transformer is very important.

 

Status is real for kids. I remember the first few days of kindergarten. I went to school in sandals and when I got there I could feel it big time...no one had said anything at all but I felt sort of anxiety and shame for wearing those sandals, and eventualy at recess or something I was catching flack for the leather sandals and blue socks.

 

On an organic level, a few dolls and items for kids to use to define the culture to themselves, and a few key tools that are kid sized and actually work are all a kid needs to learn alot and keep them selves fully active in imaginationa and actual creativity, but it is definitely not the culture.

 

There is an island culture that allows the kids to have an organic unrestricted relationship with there most important tool which is the machette. Children are allowed to handle them and drag them around, no body freaks out. As soon as the child wants to and has the dextaerity they start there relationships with the machette. By the time they are 3 and four, groups of kids will be sitting around a log whapping away at it in a spectacle that would make anyone outside the culture cringe, yet oddly noone has ever really been hurt. They learn by watching the adults and grow up being experts with all the tools their cultures use.

[Marblehead]

Hehe, maybe saying that material desire being an illusion is taking it too far. Would you at least give priority over your desire to improve the way you relate to other human beings and yourself over the desire for material objects? Cause in the end, you cannot improve the value of your relationships with objects, but you can improve the value of your objects with relationships.

 

I do like material alot as well, but I constantly try to challenge this because I want to know if there is another path as well.

 

Okay. Now I can talk with you. Hehehe. Sure, the people I hold dear in my life come before my materialism.

 

But during normal operating times I will take care of myself first then I will share my material possessions with others. That is, I have no problem with giving of my excess, and I do that, even to people I do not know.

 

Oh, I have improved my relationship with a number of women with materialism. Hehehe. We shouldn't talk about that though.

 

Balance, I think, or perhaps harmony. If we are wanting of basic needs we really find it hard to get into many personal relationships where materialism is not a factor.

 

 

Edit to add:

 

Yes, Ion is talking about something I would agree with. My family was basically poor and there were few toys. Because of that I learned to be conservative with my money. Now, single and retired and with more than I need I no longer have to count pennies. So on occasion I treat myself to something extra. A set of tools that I might never use but had need for them many times when I was younger and did not have the money to buy them.

 

And I will agree that too much materialism in our life will cause us to have unsuccessful relationships with other people.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Marblehead

[gendao]

It seems that the desire for spiritual is the only real desire that can be fullfilled.

Well, this is really the only true desire. The rest are all subconscious means towards that end.

 

For example, some self-inquiry of your "laptop desire" revealed that what you really wanted (through that means) was for your heart to be at peace...(which could still even be a means for an even deeper end!)

Edited September 14, 2011 by vortex

[Everything]

Well, this is really the only true desire. The rest are all subconscious means towards that end.

 

For example, some self-inquiry of your "laptop desire" revealed that what you really wanted (through that means) was for your heart to be at peace...(which could still even be a means for an even deeper end!)

Exactly that is how it feels when I get something only to find out I didn't really want it. Sometimes I even pretend I did want it, and try to enjoy it. I simply don't care about the things I thought I wanted most. Perhaps its simply that I personally have no solid identity or don't have solid opinions yet to even make the judgement of what I do and do not want. I have to rethink what value really means and contemplate it.

[Everything]

Not to negat the original...

 

...grow up being experts with all the tools their cultures use.

That sounds very interesting. I grew up with a lack of identity or mature examples, so I always seek to fit in and always sought new toy after new toy. I can see how this monetary system would prefer this, because it gives them a sense of control over us, where we lack identity. They come and fill it with newest hip thing available for you to buy over and over again.

I think this void that has to constantly fill up is really caused by a lack in identity which becomes apearant with his/her relationships. How do you guys think about that?

[Marblehead]

 

I think this void that has to constantly fill up is really caused by a lack in identity which becomes apearant with his/her relationships. How do you guys think about that?

 

I think you have a good handle on it, at least in your thoughts. How well do you think you are and will be able to apply it?

[ion]

That sounds very interesting. I grew up with a lack of identity or mature examples, so I always seek to fit in and always sought new toy after new toy. I can see how this monetary system would prefer this, because it gives them a sense of control over us, where we lack identity. They come and fill it with newest hip thing available for you to buy over and over again.

I think this void that has to constantly fill up is really caused by a lack in identity which becomes apearant with his/her relationships. How do you guys think about that?

 

I think there is a real lack of identity in this socirty and that people seek to define them selves thru materielism for sure. That definitely happens with children nowadays identifying with toys and characters as though they are the people influencing their development, because as you point out, a lot of people dont have a people and that confounds a child as to who they are.

[fiveelementtao]

It seems that the desire for spiritual is the only real desire that can be fullfilled. Trough friendship and sharing. The toys don't mean shit when it is not shared and shit means everything when it is shared.

 

Don't you guys feel the same way?

No.

 

Here's something to consider: your illusion is not based on the desire for material things. Your illusion is that other people are being deprived and need someone else to fulfill their fantasies... This isn't a criticsm. I think we all suffer from this illusion on some level..

 

Bear with me

 

You claimed that in your fantasy of infinite money that what bothered you was not being able to share your fantasy laptop with everyone. Why would giving to others your fantasy make you feel better about having what you want?

 

What is the perceived gain you would get from being able to give everyone your laptop? Love? acceptance? The right to enjoy your fantasy?

 

I wouldn't want your laptop. I have my own fantasy objects. I am sure there are many others that would not want your fantasy laptop either.

 

So, if you were going around the world fulfilling your fantasy of sharing your dream laptop with everyone there would be alot of people who would not want it. There are many people who would not want or need anything from you at all...

 

But the idea of sharing your fantasy goodies makes you feel better and gives you permission to enjoy them yourself. So, the illusion is in projecting your desires and perceived needs on other people.

 

Another illusion is that you feel guilty when you get the material things you want. That somehow if you are given what you really want that simply by getting that item you are stealing from someone else. So, by giving everyone else your fantasy laptop, you are not really giving to them out of a selfless desire to give, but to give yourself permission to enjoy the laptop. Your desire to give is based in guilt, not true charity...

 

The illusion is that by sharing your fantasy with others that you are helping them...

 

But another way to look at it is that by you freely giving to others what you yourself want would be to deny others the privelige of getting it for themselves.

 

The real illusion that I hear in your post is: that you believe that we are all being deprived of good things.

 

Again, this isn't a criticism. I think we all share this illusion in some form or other.

 

So, why not just work for your fantasy laptop and be the only person in the world with that amazing laptop? You are not depriving anyone else of attaining their own fantasies and you are not a bad person for being the only person in the world to have that really cool laptop. It is not "unspiritual" to enjoy your fantasies... Any feelings of discomfort that you have after you get your laptop would be excellent fodder to meditate about your percpeptions of yourself in comparison to others... It would be a great way to meditate about our boundaries and the how the universe treats us as individuals as well as a community...

 

Something to consider...

[iamtheare]

Illusion being the distortion of reality and delusion being false belief and resistance to hinder those beliefs with reason and actuality. Which one is it to you?

 

Seems to me it first takes illusion to become deluded. It also seems more common for those who become aware of their delusions that they only create more illusions rather than becoming enlightened.

 

(Just a thought I wanted to share.)

[zanshin]

How about a fantasy go-kart? My 10 year old son has one. He saved and did jobs for months to pay for half (I paid the other half, we had a deal). Months later he loves his go-kart, none of the other kids have one. They have lots of fun taking turns driving it, he likes to teach them how to use the controls and do little tricks. Dumb material toy that has provided lots of enjoyment and entertainment. Til there's blood...hmm, they do have to wear a helmet. And crashes are awesome! Are crashes spiritual? Crashing might help clear up ambiguity over what is illusion. And light adults can drive it too! And toys are fun! (at least fun for materialist thrill seekers).

[Marblehead]

Seems to me it first takes illusion to become deluded. It also seems more common for those who become aware of their delusions that they only create more illusions rather than becoming enlightened.

 

(Just a thought I wanted to share.)

 

Wanted to say that I agree with this. I agree because I have had the experience. I do try hard to not have illusions and delusions unless I willingly accept them into my life under condition and that I am fully aware of why and what purpose they serve.

[Ambrose_Bierce]

Maybe it is that I might be able to tune in on what Everything is saying...

 

Maybe its the same vibration

 

I am somewhat confident that Everything is not talking about getting gratification or happiness dependant upon others.

[fiveelementtao]

Maybe it is that I might be able to tune in on what Everything is saying...

 

Maybe its the same vibration

 

I am somewhat confident that Everything is not talking about getting gratification or happiness dependant upon others.

@ Ambrose... Where then do you believe he is trying to get his happiness?

 

It bothered me because other people could not enjoy the same thing, it bothered me because I could not share this object with others, it bothered me that other people would want my laptop if I bought it for my self...

 

Conclusion? If I had infinite money, I would never stop buying the whole world this 10,000 dollar laptop untill everyone had one. Only then would I buy myself this laptop. Only then... I have to put my self last, else my heart wont be at peace.

[Everything]

I think you have a good handle on it, at least in your thoughts. How well do you think you are and will be able to apply it?

Hmm... I think my identity needs constant work to become more solid and enduring. I constantly challenge my believes and try to find my core values. Its a weakness of mine that shall require constant work I guess. The more environments I put my self the more evident my core identity becomes. I think what I says applies atleast in that I admit the toy being a mask to hide behind. I should face my self without the aid of tools.

[Everything]

I think there is a real lack of identity in this socirty and that people seek to define them selves thru materielism for sure. That definitely happens with children nowadays identifying with toys and characters as though they are the people influencing their development, because as you point out, a lot of people dont have a people and that confounds a child as to who they are.

Yeah that sounds right

[Marblehead]

Hmm... I think my identity needs constant work to become more solid and enduring. I constantly challenge my believes and try to find my core values. Its a weakness of mine that shall require constant work I guess. The more environments I put my self the more evident my core identity becomes. I think what I says applies atleast in that I admit the toy being a mask to hide behind. I should face my self without the aid of tools.

 

WoW! I really wasn't expecting an answer to my question. It was only meant for you to ask of your Self.

 

Don't worry too much about your identity. That's constantly changing anyhow. (Too slow for most of us to notice though.) Yes, I think it is important to question our core values. This is what makes us "us".

 

And I totally agree that being in different environments helps us to identify ourself. I was very fortunate with my Army service.

 

Ah! The masks. They are useful at times. Don't throw them all away. The important thing is to know that we are wearing a mask when we put one on. I wouldn't really call it hiding; I think it is more at creating a defensive posture.

[Marblehead]

A comment I heard yesterday has a little to do with this topic.

 

"There are more kids who dress up as Bat Man than there are those who dress up as Robin."

 

It has been said that we all need a hero.

[Everything]

No.

 

Here's something to consider: your illusion is not based on the desire for material things. Your illusion is that other people are being deprived and need someone else to fulfill their fantasies... This isn't a criticsm. I think we all suffer from this illusion on some level..

 

Bear with me

 

You claimed that in your fantasy of infinite money that what bothered you was not being able to share your fantasy laptop with everyone. Why would giving to others your fantasy make you feel better about having what you want?

 

What is the perceived gain you would get from being able to give everyone your laptop? Love? acceptance? The right to enjoy your fantasy?

 

I wouldn't want your laptop. I have my own fantasy objects. I am sure there are many others that would not want your fantasy laptop either.

 

So, if you were going around the world fulfilling your fantasy of sharing your dream laptop with everyone there would be alot of people who would not want it. There are many people who would not want or need anything from you at all...

 

But the idea of sharing your fantasy goodies makes you feel better and gives you permission to enjoy them yourself. So, the illusion is in projecting your desires and perceived needs on other people.

 

Another illusion is that you feel guilty when you get the material things you want. That somehow if you are given what you really want that simply by getting that item you are stealing from someone else. So, by giving everyone else your fantasy laptop, you are not really giving to them out of a selfless desire to give, but to give yourself permission to enjoy the laptop. Your desire to give is based in guilt, not true charity...

 

The illusion is that by sharing your fantasy with others that you are helping them...

 

But another way to look at it is that by you freely giving to others what you yourself want would be to deny others the privelige of getting it for themselves.

 

The real illusion that I hear in your post is: that you believe that we are all being deprived of good things.

 

Again, this isn't a criticism. I think we all share this illusion in some form or other.

 

So, why not just work for your fantasy laptop and be the only person in the world with that amazing laptop? You are not depriving anyone else of attaining their own fantasies and you are not a bad person for being the only person in the world to have that really cool laptop. It is not "unspiritual" to enjoy your fantasies... Any feelings of discomfort that you have after you get your laptop would be excellent fodder to meditate about your percpeptions of yourself in comparison to others... It would be a great way to meditate about our boundaries and the how the universe treats us as individuals as well as a community...

 

Something to consider...

Wait... I'm confused now!

 

How did I project my desires unto others? I said that I would only want the laptop if the whole world could have one. Buyig the whole world a laptop is symbolic, like a goal to be achieved. As my serving to humanity in order to improve all of humanity, of which I'm part of. Ofcourse in order to have a laptop for every person on earth would require some big changes, so I'd probably most likely fund the venus project to achieve this goal for me. Giving the future a headstart.

 

I believe that future laptops will be tablet pc's connected cloud based supercomputers with cloud operating systems trough next generation cellular wireless technologies. Projecting my desires onto other people? I want a world that is filled with more technology, up to a point where we can communicate trough thought alone. Thats my desire, for me alone. I'm crazy sick bastard, I know... But to achieve these futures we first need to get rid of corruptions, hence I fund the venus project.

 

Thats what I thought when I read your reply ^^

[Everything]

Illusion being the distortion of reality and delusion being false belief and resistance to hinder those beliefs with reason and actuality. Which one is it to you?

 

Seems to me it first takes illusion to become deluded. It also seems more common for those who become aware of their delusions that they only create more illusions rather than becoming enlightened.

 

(Just a thought I wanted to share.)

I feel this way too, I just don't know how to get enlightened yet... What other fate do I have then to eternally dwell in my illusions? I can't seem to go like "snap" I'm enlightened now. It requires alot of inner work and deep exploration to discover your true self or the Tao. Let alone have it inside your pocket at all times...

[Everything]

How about a fantasy go-kart? My 10 year old son has one. He saved and did jobs for months to pay for half (I paid the other half, we had a deal). Months later he loves his go-kart, none of the other kids have one. They have lots of fun taking turns driving it, he likes to teach them how to use the controls and do little tricks. Dumb material toy that has provided lots of enjoyment and entertainment. Til there's blood...hmm, they do have to wear a helmet. And crashes are awesome! Are crashes spiritual? Crashing might help clear up ambiguity over what is illusion. And light adults can drive it too! And toys are fun! (at least fun for materialist thrill seekers).

It is the imagination that makes it fun. Especially if this fantasy is shared and strengthened trough social network that runs parallel to the mechanics of neural networks.

As above, so below... Like a holographic universe.

[zanshin]

I'll pass on the laptop sweetie. I mean it's very kind that you want to give one to everyone, mine really isn't cheap and crappy enough, I don't use or understand features I do have.

 

Umm...can I have a trampoline instead?