[TTC Study] Chapter 70 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 70

 

John Wu

 

My words are very easy to understand, and very easy to practice:

But the world cannot understand them, nor practice them.

My words have an Ancestor.

My deeds have a Lord.

The people have no knowledge of this.

Therefore, they have no knowledge of me.

The fewer persons know me,

The nobler are they that follow me.

Therefore, the Sage wears coarse clothes,

While keeping the jade in his bosom.

 

 

English/Feng

 

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,

Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

My words have ancient beginnings.

My actions are disciplined.

Because men do not understand, they have no knowledge of me.

Those that know me are few;

Those that abuse me are honored.

Therefore the sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in his heart.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

My words are easy to understand,

And easy to put into practice.

Yet no one in the world can understand them,

And no one can put them into practice.

Now my words have an ancestor, and my deeds have a lord,

And it's simply because [people] have no understanding [of them], that they therefore don't understand me.

But when those who understand me are few, then I'm of great value.

Therefore the Sage wears coarse woolen cloth, but inside it he holds on to jade.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[ion]

Although chapter 70 & 20 could be differientiated by looking at specific details, I think they can also be said to be two sides of the same coin.

 

What is the difference between assent and denial?

What is the difference between beautiful and ugly?

What is the difference between fearsome and afraid?

 

The people are merry as if at a magnificent party

Or playing in the park at springtime,

But I am tranquil and wandering,

Like a newborn before it learns to smile,

Alone, with no true home.

 

The people have enough and to spare,

Where I have nothing,

And my heart is foolish,

Muddled and cloudy.

 

The people are bright and certain,

Where I am dim and confused;

The people are clever and wise,

Where I am dull and ignorant;

Aimless as a wave drifting over the sea,

Attached to nothing.

 

The people are busy with purpose,

Where I am impractical and rough;

I do not share the peoples' cares

But I am fed at nature's breast.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 70

2. My words are very easy to be understood;

2. And very easy to be executed.

3. But, yet, the people don't understand them,

4. Nor able to execute them.

5. Words has an origin.

6. Matter has its root.

7. Because others don't understand these reasons,

8. Thus that's why they don't understand me.

9. Those who understand me are very seldom,

10. Therefore, it would be valuable if they can follow my principles.

11. However, only virtuous sages,

12. Wearing shoddy clothes are hidden with precious jade.

 

 

Chapter 70

1. 吾言甚易知,

2. 甚易行。

3. 天下莫能知,

4. 莫能行。

5. 言有宗,

6. 事有君。

7. 夫唯無知,

8. 是以我不知。

9. 知我者希,

10.則我者貴。

11.是以聖人,

12.被褐懷玉。

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

My words are very easy to understand, and very easy to practice:

But the world cannot understand them, nor practice them.

 

English/Feng

 

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,

Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

 

Robert Henricks

 

My words are easy to understand,

And easy to put into practice.

Yet no one in the world can understand them,

And no one can put them into practice.

1. My words are very easy to be understood;

2. And very easy to be executed.

3. But, yet, the people don't understand them,

4. Nor able to execute them.

I've never read this chapter, but a quick look at the above tells me,

that all the translations are selfcontradicting and must be wrong

[ion]

That isn't self contradicting at all.

 

It is easy and simple but people dont get it because they get something else and you cant have two belief systems at the same time.

[Jeff]

That isn't self contradicting at all.

 

It is easy and simple but people dont get it because they get something else and you cant have two belief systems at the same time.

 

Agreed.

[ion]

That isn't self contradicting at all.

 

It is easy and simple but people dont get it because they get something else and you cant have two belief systems at the same time.

 

I think the relationship between the contradictions is meant to emphesis something indirectly.

 

 

edit-to expand so I dont seem like a condesending jerk because I didn't mean to but it actually looked that way.

 

He alludes to be exluded (by choice and default), from virtually all cultural affairs which causes him to seem peculiar to the masses, and possably even like a bumb, but invaluable to those who see his worth, which livving by non-compulsion, unassertivenes and having letgo of conditioning is probably very few.

 

Every one looks at him like "wtf?" becaus they believe that joy and pleasure really are had by pursuing desires and that the rituals and affairs that they live by for sustenance and enjoyment are simply just that and hes looking at them like "wtf?" because he understands the simple truth of it all.

 

The principles of following the way and finding contentment are simple and straight forward, and that if everyone did we would live in harmony and not be in want, yet to fully put it into practice means to walk away from where your at.

Edited September 14, 2011 by ion

[Marblehead]

In my mind, I exchanged Henricks' words "no one" to "few". I just don't like absolutes plus I do believe that there are those who understand his teachings and that there are many who do their best to live according to those teachings.

 

I really don't see those lines as contradictory either. In fact, the simple way is generally the last way we try to do something. We seem to want to make life more difficult than it really is.

[ChiDragon]

In my mind, I exchanged Henricks' words "no one" to "few". I just don't like absolutes plus I do believe that there are those who understand his teachings and that there are many who do their best to live according to those teachings.

 

I really don't see those lines as contradictory either. In fact, the simple way is generally the last way we try to do something. We seem to want to make life more difficult than it really is.

 

It was interesting how the natives who can read the classic text with a no number translation. However, the non native speakers are assigning a number to line 3 in their thinking.

 

3. 天下莫能知,

Native Translations...

CD:

3. But, yet, the people don't understand them,

John Wu:

3. The people have no knowledge of this.

 

Non Native translations:

English/Feng:

3. Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

Henricks:

3. Yet no one in the world can understand them,

Marblehead:

3. Yet few in the world can understand them

Edited September 14, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I like mine the best. Hehehe.

[dawei]

It was interesting how the natives who can read the classic text with a no number translation. However, the non native speakers are assigning a number to line 3 in their thinking.

 

3. 天下莫能知,

Native Translations...

CD:

3. But, yet, the people don't understand them,

John Wu:

3. The people have no knowledge of this.

 

Non Native translations:

English/Feng:

3. Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

Henricks:

3. Yet no one in the world can understand them,

Marblehead:

3. Yet few in the world can understand them

Sorry to disappoint. The problem is maybe not translation but english comprehension.

 

First off, Feng is chinese.

 

Second, the meaning is the same in english (except MH use of 'few').

 

Countless natives use "no one" or "none".

 

Liao and Flowing Hands which translations are provided in some chapters as from Daoist Masters both use "no one".

 

Gu Zhengkun also says "no one".

 

Chan says "none".

 

Lin Yutang says "no one".

 

Lau says "no one".

 

Jiyu says "no one".

 

Chung yuan says "no one".

[ChiDragon]

I like mine the best. Hehehe.

 

Yes, selfishness is always within our superegos. Hehehe...

[ChiDragon]

Sorry to disappoint. The problem is maybe not translation but english comprehension.

 

First off, Feng is chinese.

 

Second, the meaning is the same in english (except MH use of 'few').

 

Countless natives use "no one" or "none".

 

Liao and Flowing Hands which translations are provided in some chapters as from Daoist Masters both use "no one".

 

Gu Zhengkun also says "no one".

 

Chan says "none".

 

Lin Yutang says "no one".

 

Lau says "no one".

 

Jiyu says "no one".

 

Chung yuan says "no one".

 

I knew it was coming.......hehehe

 

They have good English background perhaps.

 

Edited to add:

As far as proper translation as concern:

天下(tian xia): all the people under heaven; the people of China.

Edited September 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Sorry to disappoint.

 

Hey, you didn't disappoint. I understand that it reads "no one". I don't argue that at all.

 

I will none-the-less stand by my interpretation - "few".

[XieJia]

like like!

 

let me join in...

 

"what I say is quite easy to know,

quite easy to do.

 

myriads things under heaven can't know,

can't do.

 

Doctrines have lineage, offices have holders.

 

individuals knows not this, they knows not me.

 

knowing me is rare, for my method becomes valuable.

 

hence the sages can wears dull clothes and in chest a precious jade."

 

My opinion is that one cannot comes eye to eye with the unless one sees the connect-ness of all under heavens;

if one see one as a name, function or purpose.

one cannot see.

 

Like Chidragon said 天下is used here.

 

I think this chapters goes with chapter 1 quite nicely...

 

Edited September 15, 2011 by XieJia

[dawei]

Hey, you didn't disappoint. I understand that it reads "no one". I don't argue that at all.

 

I will none-the-less stand by my interpretation - "few".

I knew you would not be disappointed

 

I think given the later use of 'few' in the chapter that there is a subtle meaning which can be taken from that to the early lines. After all, I do also doubt seriously that Laozi believes no single person in the whole world understands; he did

[dawei]

My opinion is that one cannot comes eye to eye with the unless one sees the connect-ness of all under heavens;

if one see one as a name, function or purpose.

one cannot see.

 

In english, "no one in the world" or "no man under heaven" conveys connected-ness. If you cannot see it then sorry to say we're back to english comprehension

[XieJia]

In english, "no one in the world" or "no man under heaven" conveys connected-ness. If you cannot see it then sorry to say we're back to english comprehension

 

Sorry, english is not my first language.

thank you

[lienshan]

In my mind, I exchanged Henricks' words "no one" to "few".

莫 means 'no one' but your mind registrated the contradiction!

Henricks translated the Mawangdui B version of chapter 70, here in my way of breaking the lines:

 

吾言 易知也 易行也

而天下 莫之能知也 莫之能行也

 

The 也 characters mark primary 'noun clauses' and secondary 'verb clauses'.

 

吾言 means 'my words'

而天下 could be read as 'your world' because 而 too meant the pronoun 'you, your' in classical chinese.

 

A 'quick' alternative litteral translation of the first lines:

 

My words are what's easy to practice of what's easy to know.

Your world is what no one is able to practice of what no one is able to know.

[Marblehead]

knowing me is rare, ...

 

This would support my interpretation.

[Marblehead]

I knew you would not be disappointed

 

I think given the later use of 'few' in the chapter that there is a subtle meaning which can be taken from that to the early lines. After all, I do also doubt seriously that Laozi believes no single person in the whole world understands; he did

 

Hehehe. Thanks, my friend, for being honest with me. I value that.

[Marblehead]

Sorry, english is not my first language.

thank you

 

English is my first language and I still have lots of problems with comprehension.

[Marblehead]

A 'quick' alternative litteral translation of the first lines:

 

My words are what's easy to practice of what's easy to know.

Your world is what no one is able to practice of what no one is able to know.

 

Well. Okay. A worthy consideration. I had, to this time, no reason to consider this conceptual presentation.

 

However, I think it is a worthy consideration, regardless of support, because the artifical world we live in is very difficult, perhaps impossible, to practice and know because we are constantly changing the rules. Tao doesn't change the rules - Tzujan is totally natural and the processes can be known.

[XieJia]

My words are what's easy to practice of what's easy to know.

Your world is what no one is able to practice of what no one is able to know.

 

 

Thumbs up!

 

 

So Laozi's world is the world while stating that the superficial is the superficial. Is it conveying same message from the other side? or is it the English comprehension again?

 

i just feel like using this emoticon for no reason.

Edited September 15, 2011 by XieJia

[dawei]

莫 means 'no one' but your mind registrated the contradiction!

Henricks translated the Mawangdui B version of chapter 70, here in my way of breaking the lines:

 

吾言 易知也 易行也

而天下 莫之能知也 莫之能行也

 

The 也 characters mark primary 'noun clauses' and secondary 'verb clauses'.

 

吾言 means 'my words'

而天下 could be read as 'your world' because 而 too meant the pronoun 'you, your' in classical chinese.

 

A 'quick' alternative litteral translation of the first lines:

 

My words are what's easy to practice of what's easy to know.

Your world is what no one is able to practice of what no one is able to know.

Yes, but his translation of MWD A goes:

And yet of people, no one...

 

The MWD A and Fu Yi text have 'Ren' (人) instead of (天下). Give that a go

 

"Yet [among] you people, no one is able to ..." ?

Edited September 15, 2011 by dawei