Is Gov. Rick Perry the Devil?

[ralis]

hm...see, I think the federal government should be out of most of these areas of what's generally considered the democrat's forte areas. there's just not a heck of a lot of room for social legislation in the constitution, and much of the social legislation is frankly unconstitutional - SS and Medicare, for example, not to mention obamacare. The people should never have been subjected to and subsequently addicted to that particular morphine drip and any "upholdings" that have been made as to their constitutionality have been fantastically contrived.

 

...but not on the wording-scale of obamacare, because that one's just plain blatant and all but the most progressive of interpretations call for scrapping that entire thing. lying to the populace to add herion to that morphine drip.

 

if you want to consider working poor, look at its proximity to mexico. working poor is better than not working poor. better to have a high min wage and high unemployment, or lower minimum wage and lower unemployment? a job is only worth so much at a given market value - which is why a lot of public sector jobs are complained about, people making exorbitant sums for simply squatting at a place for a while, then getting paid higher salary once not working?? that's just laughable. but look at the data on government performance where there are heavy union contingents, and where there are not. where there is, there is correspondingly higher collective collusion.

 

4 more years of obama....hoooboy will this country be in terrible economic shape if the country is collectively stupid enough to shoot itself in its other foot come next year. read about the amount of taxes and regulation set to go into effect after the election! companies are all holding on to their money because they dont want to extend themselves and then have all efforts crushed by the additional burden - and if your profit margin is small to begin with, double to triple percentage of that in possible extra expenses creates quite a huge wall of uncertainty, and that's plenty to make a lot of people hold back.

 

I think *every* candidate we currently have is better than Obama. Even if Hilary were a candidate.

 

But wait...if Hillary winds up usurping the prize here, we'll find her little better than Obama, but a bit more pragmatic, at least for her own ass' sake. If she or Obama happens to get elected, we wont get much recovery, we wont have much of a trough recovery, its going to be a stamp-press flattening of any remaining american exceptionalism, and it will stay that way so long as people think old socialist europe is any sort of viable method of government.

 

Crony capitalism has no place in a free market, and that's what overregulation leads to - Obama's hands are blacker than soot in that regard.

 

I know, I know - have a heart! Well, gotta have your head on straight if you're to make your heart effective. Courage is tempered by wisdom. The generally accepted term of democrat is painted with great intentions, but intentions dont mean a whole hell of a lot when the result is pure garbage and basically contrary to the stated intention.

 

People need to be taught to rely on themselves and not the government. Sick or infirm, ok, but if you are able in the least, you should not be sucking off of society.

 

Yup, the tea party's a bunch of fascists though Ad Hominem, the last refuge of those whom have no argument of any substantial value. Good to see you, Ralis

 

 

It is unconscionable that you take the positions you do. Especially, one who considers himself spiritual. You seem to care more about money than the welfare of the people of this world! Further, you definitely don't understand the Constitution. The preamble to the Constitution states that one role of the government is to 'promote the general welfare'. We are all in this together and to create an impoverished feudalistic slave class, demoralizes this country and causes much suffering! Already the real unemployment rate is well above 13-14%. Not the approximately 9-10% that the department of labor states.

 

The following are problems that right wing tea baggers never talk about. Right wing tea baggers are given talking points by the Koch bros. et al, and parrot those points against their own best interest.

 

1. Two illegal wars started by Bush that violated U.S. law as well as International law that was established after WWII as a result of the Nuremberg Tribunals. In other words, if you don't understand the ramifications of this, invading sovereign countries unprovoked, is a war crime. Very few understand this, given that the majority live in fear and are useful tools for promoting propaganda.

 

2. The increased security state as an excuse after 9/11. Homeland Security, wiretapping, illegal searches without a warrant, TSA etc. Shredding of the bill of rights, gutting of habeas corpus and posse comitatus.

 

3. Tax cuts given to corporations to ship jobs overseas that increase unemployment and poverty here. Also the tax cuts given by Bush as a stimulus to create jobs has not worked. Yet, you right wingers keep asking for more tax cuts. Exactly when are the jobs? Walmart and McDonald's?

 

4. The likes of Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann want to teach their pseudo science in the class room along side real science. Creationism is not science and belongs in the church, comparative religion classes or mythology. That is why I called them fascists, given that they want to combine religion and government, which is fascism and is not an ad hom attack as you attempted to characterize it.

 

5. The complete commercialization of the media where no real objective journalism exists, only propaganda.

 

6. Inner city and poor communities that have very little tax base to support schools and other needed services are unable to afford quality education for their children. Therefor, there is virtually no upward mobility out of poverty and crime ridden areas.

 

7. This country is rapidly becoming feudalistic and if wages are decreased, to a couple of dollars an hour, then we will really see rampant poverty.

 

8. Health care for all is important and if the population is healthy as well as educated, then this country has a better potential to become more prosperous.

 

9. Without adequate health care for all, what about a virulent epidemic that threatens millions? If there is little government, then who is responsible?

 

10. Who is going to repair and pay for the common infrastructure i.e, bridges, roads, sewer systems, that we all share and use. Right now there are thousands of unsafe bridges and roads that are hazards to the public?

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a prime example of greed and an impoverished soul that just can't get enough.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2011 by ralis

[ralis]

Another right wing, tea party, fascist demagogue! This kind of rhetoric is extremely dangerous.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2011 by ralis

[Bubbles]

Thumbs up for your post ralis, thanks!

 

Michael Winn in his forum My link seems to hold a very libertarian position and find interests in Ron Paul's view. So....

Edited September 19, 2011 by bubbles

[realfastcat]

Yes, that is an excellent post ralis. +1

Also this idea of Dick Cheney supporting a Hillary candidacy is an attempt to divide and conquer.

 

This point:

9. Without adequate health care for all, what about a virulent epidemic that threatens millions? If there is little government, then who is responsible?

 

I have to say I am very hesitant to receive any vaccination. This is just a scary idea from any angle.

[gendao]

Michael Winn in his forum My link seems to hold a very libertarian position and find interests in Ron Paul's view. So....

I agree!! As clearly do many other wise Taoists!

 

Reality is, we are unavoidably paradigm-shifting from selfishness to self-reliance now. From passing the buck to dealing yourself. From freedom to responsibility.

 

Of course, Leftist, atheist Crybaby Boomers will go kicking & screaming into this transition - even though it was half their own fault! The irony is that they childishly want the Government to serve as their God, because they don't believe in "God." Yet still feel the need for one (even though we're at least $15 trillion in debt now!!). So, their list of bankrupting Socialist demands read like wishlists to Santa Claus.. "I wanna PONY Santa, WAHHH!!!"

 

But if these atheists want to find "God" so bad...maybe they should just go join a local church instead?

 

This is 1/2 of the problem. The other half is neocons who are also bankrupting us (financially & morally) as the NW0's global stormtroopers.

 

Therefore, the LOGICAL solution is a 3rd Party candidate like RON PAUL who transcends both these arms of the NW0!! Who wants to cut back on BOTH Socialist enslavement and offensive PNAC wars!

Edited September 19, 2011 by vortex

[ralis]

Yes, that is an excellent post ralis. +1

Also this idea of Dick Cheney supporting a Hillary candidacy is an attempt to divide and conquer.

 

This point:

9. Without adequate health care for all, what about a virulent epidemic that threatens millions? If there is little government, then who is responsible?

 

I have to say I am very hesitant to receive any vaccination. This is just a scary idea from any angle.

 

My reason for that point is that given the extreme overuse of antibiotics, many bacterial species are not treatable with conventional antibiotic therapy. Thus, the possibility of extreme virulent outbreaks which have no cure, which could cause massive suffering.

[ralis]

This is exactly what I was talking about as to what corporate America wants. This sounds like a sweatshop. Horrible conditions and low wages.

 

 

 

My link

Edited September 19, 2011 by ralis

[joeblast]

It is unconscionable that you take the positions you do. Especially, one who considers himself spiritual. You seem to care more about money than the welfare of the people of this world! Further, you definitely don't understand the Constitution. The preamble to the Constitution states that one role of the government is to 'promote the general welfare'. We are all in this together and to create an impoverished feudalistic slave class, demoralizes this country and causes much suffering! Already the real unemployment rate is well above 13-14%. Not the approximately 9-10% that the department of labor states.

 

The following are problems that right wing tea baggers never talk about. Right wing tea baggers are given talking points by the Koch bros. et al, and parrot those points against their own best interest.

 

1. Two illegal wars started by Bush that violated U.S. law as well as International law that was established after WWII as a result of the Nuremberg Tribunals. In other words, if you don't understand the ramifications of this, invading sovereign countries unprovoked, is a war crime. Very few understand this, given that the majority live in fear and are useful tools for promoting propaganda.

 

2. The increased security state as an excuse after 9/11. Homeland Security, wiretapping, illegal searches without a warrant, TSA etc. Shredding of the bill of rights, gutting of habeas corpus and posse comitatus.

 

3. Tax cuts given to corporations to ship jobs overseas that increase unemployment and poverty here. Also the tax cuts given by Bush as a stimulus to create jobs has not worked. Yet, you right wingers keep asking for more tax cuts. Exactly when are the jobs? Walmart and McDonald's?

 

4. The likes of Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann want to teach their pseudo science in the class room along side real science. Creationism is not science and belongs in the church, comparative religion classes or mythology. That is why I called them fascists, given that they want to combine religion and government, which is fascism and is not an ad hom attack as you attempted to characterize it.

 

5. The complete commercialization of the media where no real objective journalism exists, only propaganda.

 

6. Inner city and poor communities that have very little tax base to support schools and other needed services are unable to afford quality education for their children. Therefor, there is virtually no upward mobility out of poverty and crime ridden areas.

 

7. This country is rapidly becoming feudalistic and if wages are decreased, to a couple of dollars an hour, then we will really see rampant poverty.

 

8. Health care for all is important and if the population is healthy as well as educated, then this country has a better potential to become more prosperous.

 

9. Without adequate health care for all, what about a virulent epidemic that threatens millions? If there is little government, then who is responsible?

 

10. Who is going to repair and pay for the common infrastructure i.e, bridges, roads, sewer systems, that we all share and use. Right now there are thousands of unsafe bridges and roads that are hazards to the public?

I also find it unconscionable that some declare to be all for "helping the people out" yet for some reason feel the need to disregard the results of their actions, the ever repeated mantra of "well, his heart was in the right place." (as they line their pockets.)

 

If your results suck, they suck, and no amount of good intention is going to right those results.

 

Yes Ralis, I care enough about people that I wish them freedom. I care about them so much, I want them to have every opportunity in the world - if they are willing to step up and take it.

 

You find my views unconscionable because I am ok with letting a person earn money and keep the majority of it? oookay - so what would you do, after all of the rich people were eliminated? How is your Utopian society going to function and support itself? Everyone plays the good little drone?

 

Sure, once we figure out how to harness energy limitlessly and attain the technology to manipulate matter so that most ideas of "work" would be rendered relatively obsolete. People are inherently lazy - if you give them a means to not have to work and continue to be lazy, all but the most driven will take it. What happens when you extend unemployment? 98% of the people on it go "sweet, now I dont have to look for a job for another X months." And no, taking money out of society to pay people to do nothing does not help the economy.

 

Preamble bramble...you didnt read the rest of the constitution after they wrote "promote general welfare" did you like the rest of progressives who take the FDR-view that the constitution needs to be read...and re-read...and re-read...ostensibly until a favorable twisting of words is attained!?

 

1) past obvious mistakes aside, what do you not understand about Congressional approval? Bush got congressional approval - which means plenty of democrats signed on. Obama went into Libya and relied on crafty wording. Who has done something illegal, now? Oh, right...its okay when its a...not-republican doing it?

 

All that aside - we are talking about the present, not the past. "Compassionate conservatism" simply meant betraying conservative values, which is ostensibly what any sort of "compromise" winds up being. Using GWB of all people as some sort of refutation of fiscal conservatism!?!?!?! You and I both know what a joke that is - a big spending conservative is a conservative betraying core values.

 

And whenever I refer to "conservatism" I am speaking strictly fiscally. Abortion aside, there's not much of any interest whatsoever in social legislation from the conservative side of things. Most "conservatives" these days are socially liberal, so trying to obfuscate that point isnt going to get you anywhere.

 

2) I agree the patriot act is a step too far

 

3) You are delusional with respect to tax cuts. Regulation and taxation is the root of your statement - why are companies hoarding cash right now? What's just over the horizon, after the election? All of the taxes and regulations and are not being addressed right now. Look at what's over the horizon and tell me that's going to spur you, as a company owner, to expand and take on more employees. Temporary tax cuts are what produces next to nothing for results - as you've seen over the last couple years. There's a significant different between setting a rate and jacking the rate through the roof but giving some favored exemptions for the time being. It does not change people's bottom line.

 

4) Combining religion and government.... seriously? They peddle some funny concepts over there at Huffpo.

 

5) as we've seen with the media being completely in the tank for Obama, not even vetting him in the least and giving him a pass on dozens of things that would have sent any other candidate packing. Simply. Not. Qualified. In. The. Least. As his old propaganda person said "we completely control the message" - yeah, the one who looks to Mao when she needs someone to think about how things should be done.

 

6) Yet funny enough, the mobility of the lowest tax bracket is significant, and also funny enough, government programs for inner cities have had relatively as much luck as humpty dumpty's men. Not to mention, the inner cities wouldnt be so bad off if they didnt have politicians promising them goodies, then taxing the businessman to pay for them...and then they're left crying when businessman takes his business elsewhere. What can one say? Sorry people, you did this to yourselves, collectively. Break the paradigm to get out of it - dont elect somebody that's "going to fight for you" because that basically means "we're going to fight somebody" and the outcome is...well, forgivable, since their heart was in the right place?

 

not sure what you're trying to say with 7. If its an argument for increasing the minimum wage, that can be utterly destroyed with empirical data, which you'll likely ignore because it doesnt suit your worldview. Look at the teenage unemployment rate, how do they like being unemployed? Teenagers are the first and hardest hit by minimum wage.

 

8.) THE biggest reason healthcare is so frickin expensive is - thank you third party payer system! People that dont ever see a cost dont give a shit about the cost. The only way we're going to reduce healthcare costs is to make people see what they are paying for. Give them the opportunity to shop around. When you have one huge onesizefitsall repository for payment and everything and there is no competition, is it anny wonder that costs skyrocket?

 

Sorta like college costs since the government decided to step in and guarantee all the loans! What do you think that effect was? College costs rising at over 4 times the amount of inflation.

 

9) Nowhere will you notice my advocating getting rid of so much government that it cannot perform its functions. Is an epidemic any different than another natural disaster where the government is in a place to assist the citizens? Apparently since it involves "health" then it automatically falls under healthcare?

 

10) Apparently you missed my differentiating between federal, state, local governments. Its not the fed's job to maintain roads! (Nor is it their job to take money from a state that has minded its fiscal matters and give it to a state that has pissed away its money and resources so that the foolish state can pave its roads!)

 

 

 

The amusing thing about Progressives is...they do some sort of underhanded action, then attempt to call out their adversaries for doing the very same thing. News Flash, the tea party came about from CNBC guy Rick Santelli musing about our government showing all the spending restraint a crackhead shows with rocks in front of him, people liked the idea of the government not spending *WAY* more than it brings in - and surprise, many of the things it spends our money on are not even their responsibility. (I'm sure you have no problem with George Soros, yes?)

 

 

Spending more than you earn is irresponsible. Your government spending *far* more than they tax, and then saying we'll just hit the high earners to make up the difference is bordeline legalized robbery.

 

 

I also have to chuckle at zeros' poking naive comment, when what I'm chuckling about is the naivete of believing that soaking the rich will leave the rich inclined to hang around with their money in the least. Sorry to let you in on a little secret, a lot of "the rich" are already soaked pretty badly (if you havent noted what the tax structure looks like) - and the ones that arent getting soaked you wont ever be able to soak because they make way too much, and at the same time there simply does not exist enough rich people, enough rich people's money, enough business of theirs, to simply tax the shit out of it and (temporarily) fix our spending problems - so the solution is to vastly expand what "rich" even is, and tax those suckers, too - and it will impact them. Only...those people right there are where the most job creation comes from.

 

Let's be frank - even raiding this additional money from the rich, even if it did fix our fiscal problems - the "fix" would be temporary at best, because the rate at which we are spending money is so long past unsustainable its not even funny anymore - yet Obama proposes we simply raise another 1.5 trillion in taxes to take care of the problem.

 

Entirely disconnected from reality.

 

So Ralis, how are we going to provide for the poor once we're Greece? How will we be compassionate when we quite simply can no longer afford to be? Where will the golden eggs come from once the goose has been killed?

 

Sorry people, I'm very pragmatic. Which is why I'll forever be a classical liberal - in other words, a fiscally conservative libertarian. You cant be everything to everyone and have anything left for yourself...your government cannot provide cradle to grave service well in the least, the government cannot provide for its citizens better than they can themselves, the government cannot be involved in picking winners and losers in the market.

 

Departures from which leave the country less free, less stable, less of an enjoyable place to live.

[ralis]

 

Of course, Leftist, atheist Crybaby Boomers will go kicking & screaming into this transition - even though it was half their own fault! The irony is that they childishly want the Government to serve as their God, because they don't believe in "God." Yet still feel the need for one (even though we're at least $15 trillion in debt now!!). So, their list of bankrupting Socialist demands read like wishlists to S

Therefore, the LOGICAL solution is a 3rd Party candidate like RON PAUL who transcends both these arms of the NW0!! Who wants to cut back on BOTH Socialist enslavement and offensive PNAC wars!

 

All leftist's are crybabies? Your emotional, sweeping generalizations are not factual, in the least bit! Ron Paul? He would attempt to gut civil rights laws, reinstitute segregation, gut the FDA, EPA, Depart of Education just to name a few.

 

What most people in this country who are not well educated on such matters, is the POTUS is not a dictator and has no power to write checks. The power of the purse resides with the Congress. There are checks and balances with all three branches.

 

The POTUS can't pass laws only congress can. Many of the problems this country faces, are the fault of a bought and paid for congress.

[joeblast]

gut civil rights laws, bring us back to jim crowe...

 

 

ffs, you people show pretty readily how not-serious you are about fixing anything whatsoever. you must necessarily mischaracterize and spread lies to support your argument.

 

unconscionable you agree with and participate in that.

[ralis]

gut civil rights laws, bring us back to jim crowe...

 

 

ffs, you people show pretty readily how not-serious you are about fixing anything whatsoever. you must necessarily mischaracterize and spread lies to support your argument.

 

unconscionable you agree with and participate in that.

 

 

The ad hominem attacks are not appreciated!

 

I would like to see your rational argument as to what is Constitutional and what is not. Are you familiar with all the case law around what you feel is unconstitutional or not? It would take a real legal scholar to put together that kind of argument. Are you a lawyer? A scholar?

Edited September 20, 2011 by ralis

[ralis]

Here is 'Tea Bagger' Perry lying about evolution and claiming that creationism is taught in Texas schools.

 

 

 

[zerostao]

yup

" show pretty readily how not-serious you are about fixing anything whatsoever"

i am not serious about politics as i have made clear many times on this forum and thru-out my life.

on one hand it is totally hilarious and ridiculous from my view, and on another hand i do understand that many take this stuff very seriously. there are many many folks suffering here in america and from my view those folks are not the rich folks that are doing the suffering.

 

i cant tell a clinton from a bush to me they are exactly the same.

http://news.yahoo.co...erence-concert/

here clinton says the problem has been going on 30 years. it woulda been cool if he had adressed it 20-12 years ago while he was in power.

imo and from my view GWB and DC and their cohorts are all guilty of treason.

 

People need to be taught to rely on themselves and not the government. Sick or infirm, ok, but if you are able in the least, you should not be sucking off of society.

well Jb i agree with this, however for the first time in my life i am taking the Gcheese. i am now a student and receiving grant/loan. i make no apologies for this , i dont make the rules , i just play by them and it is rather playful. and i am abiding by the stated rules, i look at it as a contract of sorts , i do go to class.

 

a dollar publicly spent is a dollar and change taken privately

i agree again but i always say a penny saved is at least as good as a penny earned.

 

HNJT Wake up and smell the bullshit.

obviously if one is upwind from it , it is harder to smell it.

 

"By electing leaders who will do as such" name one

 

"Especially, one who considers himself spiritual" i consider us all spiritual we can have differing views.

we are all at different vantage points. i trust JB, i trust ralis....and it is fine entertainment watching this.

luckily from my vantage point how ever it plays out i will most likely be equally un-affected. BUT i reckon i am in a small minority in that regard.

 

"That is why I called them fascists, given that they want to combine religion and government, which is fascism and is not an ad hom attack as you attempted to characterize it."

JB, do you think creationism should be taught in public schools?

 

no real objective journalism exists - from the right or the left.

 

" posse comitatus." i suspect plans are already in place

 

10. Who is going to repair and pay for the common infrastructure i.e, bridges, roads, sewer systems,

it does look like the GOP is willing to let america crumble away.

 

i may be an anarchist but i am also an american, well not really as i am an apalachian , and we are never included in american goings on , except we are allowed to go fight in wars. but i digress.....

let me tally up the current thread votes....

JB +9

ralis +5

same ol shit & bullshit +5

ron paul +4

agaisnt rick perry +2

zerostao + zero these are just the early returns.

maybe ambiguity here but is JB advocating??

" I want them to have every opportunity in the world - if they are willing to step up and take it. "

 

some call it a paradox.

remember bums. i am not serious about politics.

whichever side wins, whats the difference?

edit > i said i was in a small majority obviously i am in a minority

Edited September 20, 2011 by zerostao

[ralis]

@Joeblast,

 

Are you a business owner? A professional? Do you work in a skilled trade? Or, are you a trust fund baby and had everything given to you?

 

Have you ever served in the military? If not, then are you one of the flag waving patriots that support war and are afraid to serve?

Edited September 20, 2011 by ralis

[ralis]

@Joeblast,

 

 

1) past obvious mistakes aside, what do you not understand about Congressional approval? Bush got congressional approval - which means plenty of democrats signed on. Obama went into Libya and relied on crafty wording. Who has done something illegal, now? Oh, right...its okay when its a...not-republican doing it?

 

 

Obviously you have no understanding of U.S. law and International law. Even the congress is responsible for war crimes if they authorize an illegal war. I don't care what party they belong to! I am against any U.S. involvement by this current administration in Libya.

 

We don't live in a country ruled by men, only by the rule of law. If leaders are allowed to make it up as they go, then we have nothing more than Kings ruling according to their own whim.

 

Here is a very good article written by a lawyer on the illegalities of the Irag war.

 

 

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-ilaw.htm

[zerostao]

"I also have to chuckle at zeros' poking naive comment, when what I'm chuckling about is the naivete of believing that soaking the rich will leave the rich inclined to hang around with their money in the least. Sorry to let you in on a little secret, a lot of "the rich" are already soaked pretty badly "

it is a poke only made half way in jest tho. as i still find all of this ridiculous. and hey rick santelli is one cool dude in my book.

here is a question tho, if we cannot tax these "job creators" ...who and where are these job creators?

are they in india and china? where? who? i agree if someone is actually creating jobs here in america by all means , lets give them a tax pass. i am all for that. but if someone has made the choice to send american jobs overseas so that the corporate bottom line was fatter, hey then lets tax about 150% of that difference they thought they gained.

if the rich dont wanna hang around with their money, by all means they are free to go elsewhwere and they have the means to do so, unlike the rest of us.

(well once actually, i left ky, went to NY on to germany and italy, with under 100$ in my pockets, but i did have a rt ticket and alot of naivette, anyone else care to match that?)(i did have a rockin good time and returned with money too)

job creators?? who? where?

i saw where there had been 7.6 billion given to the states 17 months ago to provide some temporary help for folks about to be foreclosed on , and the states have withheld 99+% of those funds from being released to do what that money was distributed for. yes, there is a dis-connect.

greece? idk man . i have been around. what i have seen is that americans outwork everyone and becoz we do so, the deck gets more stacked and more stacked against us. the american worker is the golden goose not the rich folks. of course if the rich wanna go live their lives out in the south of france or wherever.

cya bye. only stay if you want to pull your weight.

the guy that ralis posted who spends 200,000$ a year merely to feed his family? well, it is true that the prices are rising at the grocery store i reckon.

edit>

people are inherently lazy? i am lazy, my friend taiji tim is lazy. i dont really know any others who are. american workers are not lazy, not in the least.

Edited September 20, 2011 by zerostao

[joeblast]

Zeros, the "not serious" was directed at ralis and the other 10% of "progressive america." It didnt apply to you, and it was taken as but a poke I was calling out the race baiting, mischaracterizing, the relentless ad hominen tactics - its all in place of any semblance of a coherent argument - whereas I'm addressing the terrible results of their failed-every-time-its-been-tried-in-history philosophy and talking about results, Ralis apparently thinks the government should be in the business of guaranteeing equal outcomes, not equal opportunity; taking that general welfare clause to mean that the government is there to ensure the citizens' welfare and not simply help facilitate a good working environment for such.

 

Apparently the rebuttal to that is "Iraq was illegal, you know." But such things are to be expected, because what else does one do when backed against a wall with no other recourse? Call you opponents fascists, when under analysis, who's the closer to totalitarianism? Call your opponents racists, bait it at every turn, then call the diverse race portion of your opponents ranks "traitors." Support methods "to help" poor that really only result in the poor being every bit as dependent as they ever were.

 

Ralis, if you discover you're wrong, are you the type of person that will change his mind, or doggedly stick to the ideology to the last?

 

I've already answered those personal questions. Perhaps you dont recall from last time we addressed this subject? No trust fund baby here, ever dollar I have I have earned.

 

 

 

"Bush and Clinton, no different" - quite different - Obamacare...I mean, Hillarycare was rightly blasted for being the same tripe O'care is, Clinton executed like Obama until reality hit him in the face and he came to center to save his own ass, namely, the people didnt want the whole glut of your ideology, we just want somebody to run the damn country properly. Read "the myth of the Clinton surplus" sometime and it shows the myriad ways a marginal president "obtained good economic results" that were largely none of his doing. Bush got in thinking it was the same ol same ol until 9/11 changed all that, playing it "overly safe" and spending a ton of money in the process.

 

Since the Obama acceleration, a lot of the country now knows that yes, even though politics sucks, it impacts your life and those around you - so like with the global warming stuff, I go find answers, get informed. Laugh at sites like puffho along the way.

 

"Those job creators" what's the last # I recall seeing...something like 70% of most jobs are created by small businesses? That's probably inflated. Like I said to ralis, a temporary tax break with a huge rate hike just around the corner is no incentive to hire whatsoever, it is *the* one thing that is "simply a gift to the rich" if you were to label one, because for the most part any pithy temporary tax break a non rich person gets will be so marginal as to not even matter, the rich person simply takes that tax break and stores it away for later. So basically every small business that can get by with what they have will rather have their workers work doubly hard than take on more of them that they may not be able to afford, depending how things go. Permanent tax rates and regulation. Two biggest stiflers of job creation, yet that's exactly the remedy proposed by Obama time and again. Run up some more debt to pay for the things are already cant afford, and then turn around and call a reduction in the rate of increase of spending "savings." Which any rational minded man can see is a fallacy. How many new regulations out of the Obama admin so far? 400? 500? What will the end result of those be, more jobs, or less jobs?

 

I'm not in favor of a complete tax pass. I'm in favor of small streamlined proper regulations, small streamlined government, small streamlined and simplified tax code. Dont carve out exemptions - that is the government picking winners and losers in a market and it distorts the market. Any action like that impacts the market should help the market reflect real value, then the people get real value and can make proper decisions with more correct information. And be able to keep some reward for having gone out and busted your ass to make a buck.

 

 

Americans have way better work ethic and greece is corrupt as hell, that is why we "wont become greece" but at the same token our levels of debt and the sheer size of it make greek-levels of austerity measures probably necessary - and who gets hurt when politicians overspend? The poor, the middle class. The lower rich take it on the nose too, but of course not to the same level of detriment.

 

But pitting one "class" against the other, when one pays the other... oh, right, that's how public sector unions work class warfare, its us vs them, you will always be one of us and will never be one of them! (idiocy.)

[zerostao]

yeah JB , i know you know where i stand. we're always cool. as i am so indifferent about politics and no one can ruffle my feathers here , it is a safe conversation, also i am not trying to ruffle any feathers either.

i just want honest examination and critical thinking and maybe some valid solutions can be agreed upon

for the serious challenges we all face as americans.

 

i really see both sides at fault as this gridlock continues into some kinda trench warfare. and when i use terms like that- yes, realize i am an anarchist ideally and not militantly. i know i am lucky to live in any part of america. if i did not feel this way i am able to go elsewhere. i am not imprisoned here.

 

ideally i would want - individuals who are independent, self reliant, self disciplined, responsible, folks that realize they cannot inject their morality upon others, as morality is a very personal thing.

imo a lack of exposure to independentness or an over dependency to anything , a govet) has a way that it seems to discourage resiliency or an ability to adapt effectively in the face of adversity.

what i think would be good are conditions encouraging self discipline & self responsibility, for folks to be able to make their own decisions and reinforce resiliency. folks that take their futures into consideration. folks that take responsibilty for their own affairs to include their health.

for some i probably seem very cold hearted?

for me tho i dont think sympathy and compassion is always bailing someone out of whatever trouble they have found themself in. explore resiliency. imo with resiliency one finds insight, independence, initiative,

creativity, humor, good moral character and good relationships.

it fine tunes one into the ways of our world.

i dont want america to be a europe. let europe be europe , let america be america. let folks choose where they want to live and under what system. maybe south america is a great choice for some.

like i said this my my ideal it is not exactly what i see as our current landscape. i do suggest an ethological approach. lets adapt and change. is our current 2 party system actually serving us?

does each side have its own media? does each side continue to parrot party lines? is the constitution actually the law of the land?

 

what i see is there is way too much stress. there is a wealth of evidence that stress, poverty, negative interactions even including family negative interactions as divorce etc, mental illnesses, all types of abuse to include drug abuses, environmental risks all pre-dispose our children, our youth , our future to future problems. are there solutions?

i dont think any regualtions of any kind leads us away from these problems.and these problems i feel is what is contributing to our other more obvious problems. is it hopeless?

do kids , do children still play?

is anything gained just by playing? being playful?

idk as i am just some mindless wandering wanna be taoist trying to flow effortlessly like water or floating

carefree as a cloud.

there is nothing i can offer to help to all these folks i see living and showing the effects of a stressful life.

when i observe small animals playing , what i notice is that they develop basic skills, they learn to interact and share. they learn how to take themselves out of a dangerous situation.

for a moment can i dream that our elected officials can "play" that they are lawmakers and are there to interact in a way with each other that will adress our problems?

playfulness or stressfulness? idk i just aint much for stress. guess thats why i dont have any in my life?

i hand over this thread to you guys, it would be awesome if any type of hint of a solution could be found.

i am going out to play now.

[sifusufi]

Here is 'Tea Bagger' Perry lying about evolution and claiming that creationism is taught in Texas schools.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TGNRYNdVT7g

 

[thelerner]

..

I also find it unconscionable that some declare to be all for "helping the people out" yet for some reason feel the need to disregard the results of their actions, the ever repeated mantra of "well, his heart was in the right place." (as they line their pockets.)

 

If your results suck, they suck, and no amount of good intention is going to right those results.

 

Sorry people, I'm very pragmatic. Which is why I'll forever be a classical liberal - in other words, a fiscally conservative libertarian. You cant be everything to everyone and have anything left for yourself...your government cannot provide cradle to grave service well in the least, the government cannot provide for its citizens better than they can themselves, the government cannot be involved in picking winners and losers in the market.

 

Departures from which leave the country less free, less stable, less of an enjoyable place to live.

 

I don't agree with every point he makes. But have to admit its well thought out and argued.

[gendao]

And it just so happens that most of the liberal blue states (particularly California, Illinois & New York) are heavily in debt while conservative red states (like Texas) less so.

So first balance the books and THEN measure poverty! Well, we all know that liberal mecca Calibfornia is severely BANKRUPT, so that's a great example of where Socialist welfare states end up...

Illinois is a perfect example of how deep blue states end up in the red due to liberal overspending & anti-competitive legislation:

Drowning in deficits, Illinois has turned to a deliberate policy of not paying billions of dollars in bills for months at a time, creating a cycle of hardship and sacrifice for residents and businesses helping the state carry out some of the most important government tasks.

 

Once intended as a stop-gap, the months-long delay in paying bills has now become a regular part of the state's budget management, forcing businesses and charity groups to borrow money, cut jobs and services and take on personal debt. Getting paid can be such a confusing process that it requires begging the state for money and sometimes has more to do with knowing the right people than being next in line.

 

As of early last month, the state owed on 166,000 unpaid bills worth a breathtaking $5 billion, with nearly half of that amount more than a month overdue and hundreds of bills dating back to 2010, according to an Associated Press analysis of state documents.

 

The true backlog is even higher because some bills have not yet been approved for payment and officially added to the tally. This includes the Illinois health care agency, which says it is sitting on about $1.9 billion in bills from Medicaid providers because there's no money to pay it.

 

While other states with budget problems have delayed paying their bills, the backlog in Illinois is unmatched, experts say. Year after year, Illinois builds its budget on the assumption that it will pay its bills months late -- essentially borrowing money from businesses and nonprofits that have little choice but to suffer the financial hardship.

 

The unpaid bills range from a few pennies to nearly $25 million. In early September, for example, Illinois owed $55,000 to a small-town farm supply business for gasoline, $1,000 to a charity that provides used clothing to the poor, $810,000 to a child-nutrition program.

 

Even death involves delays in Illinois. Funeral homes were waiting for $2.8 million in overdue reimbursement for burying indigent people.

 

Leigh Ann Stephens wrote a letter in August "asking, pleading" for $50,000 the state owed to the DuPage Center for Independent Living, where she is executive director. It was the third time in two years that she had sent a hardship letter warning the center, which helps people with disabilities live outside of costly nursing homes, would close if it wasn't paid.

 

The letter got results, for now, but it hasn't reversed cuts. Stephens has laid off one of eight employees, stopped opening on Fridays, cut back hours for part-time workers and reduced salaries 7.5 percent for herself and the other full-time worker. Like their clients, most of the employees are disabled, coping with blindness, loss of hearing, cerebral palsy and more.

 

"This is not just a job for me. It's a way of life," Stephens said. "I can be angry. I can be sad. I can be so mad that I cry. I have thrown things across the room."

 

The delays have prompted relatively little public outcry, perhaps because so much attention has been focused on other budget battles or there is no one politician or agency to blame. It also reflects resignation from some vendors who no longer expect the corruption-plagued Illinois government to function properly.

 

"We've become accustomed to it. Being angry is not going to change it," said Suzanne Young, who has had a hard time getting the state to pay her business, Rockford Map Publishers.

 

Illinois leaders join in bemoaning the crisis but haven't been able to find a solution.

 

"God, how much more can our people take?" said Comptroller Judy Baar Topinka, a veteran politician responsible for trying to pay a seemingly infinite stack of bills with the finite amount of money approved by legislators and the governor.

 

"I really feel terrible every day that we can't pay these bills and people are going to be hanging out there for six months, seven months," Topinka said.

 

Delaying payments during tough times is nothing new for Illinois, though past delays were shorter and more limited. Under former Gov. Rod Blagojevich, big spending collided with a recession that sent state revenue spiraling downward. Illinois could no longer afford to pay its bills and the backlog exploded.

 

The backlog continued to grow even after Blagojevich was impeached and later convicted on corruption charges that included trying to sell or trade President Barack Obama's former U.S. Senate seat. He is awaiting sentencing.

 

Blagojevich's replacement, Democrat Pat Quinn, raised income taxes and trimmed spending, but that money was gobbled up by other needs, primarily rising pension costs. Under budget agreements with legislative leaders, all Democrats, bills continued to go unpaid.

 

As recently as June 2008, Illinois paid its bills seven days after state agencies finished the paperwork. A year later the delay had reached 99 days. It stood at 118 days in June of this year, the comptroller's office said.

 

The General Assembly has accepted the unpaid bills as an unpleasant necessity while Illinois claws its way out of deficits that once topped $13 billion. Lawmakers of both parties rejected Quinn's proposal to borrow money so the state can pay its overdue bills, although he says he'll try again when lawmakers meet later this month.

 

Instead, Illinois has turned businesses, charities and local governments into unwilling short-term lenders, using their money to operate government and disguise the depth of the state's financial problems.

 

Who gets paid sometimes depends on who complains the loudest or can get a politician to step in.

 

Illinois grants "expedited payment" to vendors who say they're on the verge of shutting down if they don't get their money, but the process lacks clear rules. The Illinois governor and comptroller each say the other makes the final decision on payments, and documents show a letter of support from a legislator -- Republican or Democrat -- can often shake loose money for vendors.

 

Many states use the budget gimmick of delaying payments when money is tight, but Illinois is seen as the worst.

 

"I think you win the championship," agreed Elizabeth Boris, an expert on nonprofit groups at the Urban Institute think tank.

 

California, another state notorious for budget troubles, had to issue IOUs to vendors at one point. But that was a temporary problem, not the way of life it has become in Illinois. California groups and businesses could get by with short-term loans. But many Illinois groups have maxed out their lines of credit and still don't know when state money will start flowing smoothly again or how much to count on as they plan their financial year.

 

Illinois ranked No. 1 in the country in the percentage of nonprofit groups facing payment delays, an Urban Institute survey found. Eighty-three percent said late payments from state and local government were a problem in Illinois, compared to a nationwide average of 53 percent. That survey was conducted in 2009, when Illinois' backlog was still in the middle of its dramatic rise.

 

"We are basically bankrolling the state. It's a ridiculous situation," said Abha Pandya, CEO of Asian Human Services, a Chicago organization awaiting payment on $609,000 in bills, some of them stretching back to November of last year. "It's just absolutely awful and there seems to be no end in sight."

IOW, private businesses are now being forced to bailout the government in liberal blue states! Edited October 16, 2011 by vortex

[gendao]

Sorta like college costs since the government decided to step in and guarantee all the loans! What do you think that effect was? College costs rising at over 4 times the amount of inflation.

Right, Obama passing regulation to allow the Feds to deprivatize and takeover student loans is going to create a college bubble/bust - just like the CRA created a housing bubble/bust.

The roots of this crisis go back to the Carter administration. That was when government officials, egged on by left-wing activists, began accusing mortgage lenders of racism and "redlining" because urban blacks were being denied mortgages at a higher rate than suburban whites.

 

The pressure to make more loans to minorities (read: to borrowers with weak credit histories) became relentless. Congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act, empowering regulators to punish banks that failed to "meet the credit needs" of "low-income, minority, and distressed neighborhoods." Lenders responded by loosening their underwriting standards and making increasingly shoddy loans. The two government-chartered mortgage finance firms, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, encouraged this "subprime" lending by authorizing ever more "flexible" criteria by which high-risk borrowers could be qualified for home loans, and then buying up the questionable mortgages that ensued.

 

All this was justified as a means of increasing homeownership among minorities and the poor. Affirmative-action policies trumped sound business practices. A manual issued by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston advised mortgage lenders to disregard financial common sense. "Lack of credit history should not be seen as a negative factor," the Fed's guidelines instructed. Lenders were directed to accept welfare payments and unemployment benefits as "valid income sources" to qualify for a mortgage. Failure to comply could mean a lawsuit.

The fact that the Feds are going to start making massive NINJA loans to hordes of broke-ass college students - right as we are still choking in the ashes of the housing bust caused by the same type of regulation - just shows how utterly ruthless these liberal banksters are in the hopes of creating an entire future generation of indentured servants to the State...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

Although I certainly wouldn't say ALL college degrees are worthless.. However, most of the "fluffy" liberal arts ones are simply NOT worth their exorbitant cost.