Mantras

[Seth Ananda]

Many great saints simply repeated Ram by it self their whole lives as well, like Kabir, and Neem Karoli Bubba...

[安永樂]

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Edited August 22, 2019 by 安永樂

[Mandrake]

Hello Guruyoga,

 

I find your posts very informative. Your words above caught my eye, because there is one thing in relation to the Buddhist mantras that has "bothered" me for quite a while.

 

It cannot be disputed that Buddhists took a lot of mantras from Sanatana Dharma and basically put their own tag on them. What puzzles me here is, how can these mantras still be effective if they are taken out of their proper context? I mean, this isn't exactly like the vegetable market, where you can take carrots and later cook them in anykind of a pot - no matter the size or the material out of which the pot is made.

 

How can taking a mantra from Atharvanic sutras and then claiming that this was a mantra revealed by let us say Avalokiteshvara not render the mantra utterly ineffective?

 

The same question would go for some Muslim practices, where they have taken sacred formulae of pre-Islamic eras and incorporated them into their own corpus of knowledge.

 

I mean, how come that these practices are still effective (at least to a certain degree)? Mantra Shastra is not just a great art, but also a precise science - this is at least my subjective impression.

 

An Yongle

 

An Yongle,

If I may chime in: There are mantric traditions all over the world, in a multitude of traditions. There are old mantras in the south americas that have nothing to do with India; Daoist mantras are very different from

those of the Indian traditions.

 

Mantras also work in different ways, they are used in different ways, they derive their power and efficiency in different ways and consequently, the words and exact pronounciations are not always the important part. Some work because of vibrations, some because of entirely different principles.

 

Similar mantras and sounds are different in different contexts, and are tied to different heavenly lineages. If you work with Hindu yoga, follow their explanations for their own mantras. If you follow other traditions that deliver results, I would follow their corresponding explanations and context.

 

 

Mandrake

[dwai]

An Yongle,

If I may chime in: There are mantric traditions all over the world, in a multitude of traditions. There are old mantras in the south americas that have nothing to do with India; Daoist mantras are very different from

those of the Indian traditions.

 

Mantras also work in different ways, they are used in different ways, they derive their power and efficiency in different ways and consequently, the words and exact pronounciations are not always the important part. Some work because of vibrations, some because of entirely different principles.

 

Similar mantras and sounds are different in different contexts, and are tied to different heavenly lineages. If you work with Hindu yoga, follow their explanations for their own mantras. If you follow other traditions that deliver results, I would follow their corresponding explanations and context.

 

 

Mandrake

Daoist mantras are probably a result of cross pollination with india. Mantra is a sanskrit word with a very specific meaning and purpose. You cant randomly pick things up from where ever and try to fit them into a mantric context. This is the problem with new agers...cant respect the sanctity and purity of anything...everything has to br mixed up. Well here's some news...if you mix too many things, you'll end up with diarhea...

[Mandrake]

Daoist mantras are probably a result of cross pollination with india. Mantra is a sanskrit word with a very specific meaning and purpose. You cant randomly pick things up from where ever and try to fit them into a mantric context. This is the problem with new agers...cant respect the sanctity and purity of anything...everything has to br mixed up. Well here's some news...if you mix too many things, you'll end up with diarhea...

 

If that is what you perceived from my post, I am sorry, but then I terribly failed in communicating. What you said is not the point I tried to convey.

 

Besides, I don't think everything spiritual comes from India, thus, I allow the Daoists the historical space and ingenuity to be able to come up with their own systems of using sounds for spiritual purposes.

 

M

[安永樂]

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Edited August 22, 2019 by 安永樂

[dwai]

If that is what you perceived from my post, I am sorry, but then I terribly failed in communicating. What you said is not the point I tried to convey.

 

Besides, I don't think everything spiritual comes from India, thus, I allow the Daoists the historical space and ingenuity to be able to come up with their own systems of using sounds for spiritual purposes.

 

M

 

I was perhaps a bit too "off the cuff" in my response. My apologies in that regard. <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

 

 

<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

 

Sometimes I cannot control my irritation with the New-Age appropriation and attempts at trying to make everything "same". I am not of course saying that you adhere to that mindset (and your response has helped me towards that end). Also, I am not saying that these systems (that the new age tries to standardize into one single smoothie) are inherently saying anything different or that their goals are different (though in some cases they might well be), instead what I am saying is that there is value in the unique path charted out by each of these systems. By trying to homogenize all of these, we end up losing the unique beauty inherent to these various routes (on the map, so to speak).<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">I think there has been a lot of cross-pollination between Daoists and the Indic traditions (we know that it's happened with Chan Buddhism in China, which can be safely said to be an Indic import). The Daoist sounds meditation I am familiar with, albeit in the sytem that I study, the sounds are not emphasized too much. These are not the same as Mantras because Mantras work at multiple levels, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes in isolation (depending on the level of the practitioner) -- ie they work on multiple kosha-level (of body level).

 

 

 

[dwai]

Mandrake and Dwai, thank you for your replies, but I am afraid that perhaps the point I wanted to make was missed.

 

My statements should be considered strictly value-neutral. I am not passing judgement - either positive or negative.

 

What I wanted to say was the following:

 

a.) It is clear that Buddhists took at least some of their mantras from Sanatana Dharma. Further it is clear that Muslims also adopted certain of their sacred formulae from pre-Islamic civilizations. When speaking about Muslims and Islam I am here referring mainly to their occult practices and magic, such as ruhaniya, etc.

 

b.) If we accept the premise that mantra shastra and/or the use of sacred formulae from other civilizations is not only a great art, but also a precise science, then the following question immediately arises:

 

How can these mantras or sacred formulae still be effective, despite being taken out of their original systems? Why didn't they immediately lose their efficacy?

 

On top of it, please consider that both Buddhism as well as Islam often took a very critical stance towards the spiritual traditions from which they adapted their mantras and/or sacred formulae.

 

Please consider that the Sanskrit pronounciation of most Tibetan lamas would make a traditionally educated brahmana cringe. And yet these same mantras still retain their efficacy.

 

We could then chalk the whole matter up to the fact that the lineage itself makes the mantra effective. Even with this argument there still remains a problem.

 

Example: mantra X was lifted out of the Atharvanic material (as per Guruyoga's remark) and then attributed to Buddha Y or Boddhisattva Z transmitted through lineage W. But in this case the mentioned lineage would not be authentic, since the original mantra belongs to the Atharvanic material and therefore cannot be attributed to Buddha Y or Boddhisattva Z.

 

I am again emphasizing that my statements are value-neutral! I am not trying to "bash" any teachings.

 

An Yongle

 

Understood perfectly. I hope my response can be understood based on my prior post.

 

You have a valid point in this regard, since many of the mantras have specific philosophical underpinnings that get undone (especially when Buddhism and Vedic traditions are concerned) due to the narrow interpretations (of the appropriator).

 

Unlike you however, I think the effectiveness of the mantra will actually decrease (or it won't work on the level it is meant to work). In my experience, not all mantras are suited for all individuals. So, the effectiveness of one will depend on who is practicing it. For eg, despite being a brahmin initiate, I find the Narayan mahamantra more effective than the Gayatri (which is meant to be the staple of every Brahmin in the world). Does that mean that Gayatri is less effective than the Narayan mahamantra? No, it only tells me that based on my psycho-spiritual constitution, the latter is better suited for me than the former.

 

It must also be brought to bearing that the latter was "given" to me by an unknown yogi in my dream while the former was given to me in a formal ritual in a temple. I might have been more ready for the latter than the former, so on and so forth.

[安永樂]

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Edited August 22, 2019 by 安永樂

[Mandrake]

Dwai,

Apology accepted. I certainly sympathize with you regarding this irritation. Fortunately, or unfortunately, there seem to very few in the west that know much about the mantric systems, so there is a limit on how much can be mixed up in the spiritual buffet. The downside is that this rich spiritual practice is unavailable to honest seekers.

 

Are there any formalized criteria for what exactly constitutes a mantra in your tradition dwai? I would be interested in hearing them. Also, do masters uncover new mantras from time to time?

 

 

Mandrake

 

I was perhaps a bit too "off the cuff" in my response. My apologies in that regard. <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

 

 

<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

 

Sometimes I cannot control my irritation with the New-Age appropriation and attempts at trying to make everything "same". I am not of course saying that you adhere to that mindset (and your response has helped me towards that end). Also, I am not saying that these systems (that the new age tries to standardize into one single smoothie) are inherently saying anything different or that their goals are different (though in some cases they might well be), instead what I am saying is that there is value in the unique path charted out by each of these systems. By trying to homogenize all of these, we end up losing the unique beauty inherent to these various routes (on the map, so to speak).<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">I think there has been a lot of cross-pollination between Daoists and the Indic traditions (we know that it's happened with Chan Buddhism in China, which can be safely said to be an Indic import). The Daoist sounds meditation I am familiar with, albeit in the sytem that I study, the sounds are not emphasized too much. These are not the same as Mantras because Mantras work at multiple levels, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes in isolation (depending on the level of the practitioner) -- ie they work on multiple kosha-level (of body level).

[dwai]

Dwai,

Apology accepted. I certainly sympathize with you regarding this irritation. Fortunately, or unfortunately, there seem to very few in the west that know much about the mantric systems, so there is a limit on how much can be mixed up in the spiritual buffet. The downside is that this rich spiritual practice is unavailable to honest seekers.

 

Are there any formalized criteria for what exactly constitutes a mantra in your tradition dwai? I would be interested in hearing them. Also, do masters uncover new mantras from time to time?

 

 

Mandrake

 

 

 

From an old post of mine here --

 

Some Mantras will draw you automatically (by power of resonance). The special thing about Mantras is in the Meter (known as Chchanda in Sanskrit) and the pronunciation.

Before starting Sanskrit mantras, it is very important to first learn how to pronounce the letters of Sanskrit correctly. There are 50 letters in Sanskrit (as opposed to the 26 in English) and there is a proper manner in which they are pronounced.

Learning the proper pronunciation, meter, inflection and intonation is paramount if you want to have a successful Mantra meditation practice.

Edited January 18, 2012 by dwai

[C T]

 

It cannot be disputed that Buddhists took a lot of mantras from Sanatana Dharma and basically put their own tag on them. What puzzles me here is, how can these mantras still be effective if they are taken out of their proper context? I mean, this isn't exactly like the vegetable market, where you can take carrots and later cook them in anykind of a pot - no matter the size or the material out of which the pot is made.

 

How can taking a mantra from Atharvanic sutras and then claiming that this was a mantra revealed by let us say Avalokiteshvara not render the mantra utterly ineffective?

 

It may be helpful to consider that centuries back, nothing was written down, and all transmissions were passed orally, so its not too accurate to lay the claim as you have made above. Its not hard to imagine how unobstructed oral transmissions can be, so i would imagine there would be mystics carrying these transmissions far and wide, still in its oral mode, long before any of this began to find their way into written forms, that which you call the Sanatana Dharma. India, being the size it is, would have, even within its own boundaries, evolved a large variety of scripts, each with its own peculiar connotations and nuances, so would it be safe to assume that even within the Brahminic lineages there could already have taken place some sort of cross-pollination, which could lead to the presumtive possibility that the purity of the Sanatana Dharma is likely from the point of faith alone.

 

By the time written scripts began to gain significance, the Pali oral teachings have already been carried far and wide, eventually to lands as far as Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Mongolia, Tibet and so on. Not surprisingly, there have been found carvings of Pali texts in Aramaic, the language of Christ.

 

Thankfully, this did not devalue the efficacious essence of the teachings, including the mantras that were transmitted down to all the various lineages throughout history.

 

Its apparently not as straightforward as you have wanted to assume here - its not like the Buddhists went to India to borrow mantras, but mantras somehow found their way, with the help of many mystical adepts who have transcended all religious leanings, out of India and gradually seeped into so many other spiritual traditions, even long before the Sanatana Dharma was officially designated.

 

I am only thinking out loud here, and offering a different view point.

Edited January 18, 2012 by C T

[Ascension20122]

There is no need to speculate much here. Whether or not mantras came from Sanatana Dharma, most Buddhist mantras came from Vedas. There have been many studies based on linguistics which have conclusive proof. Most mantras even use corrupted names of Vedic deities, deities popular in Indus Valley civilization much before Buddhism appeared on the scene. Most noted tantric Buddhists were Hindu Brahmins who spread teachings to Tibet. Core set of Vajrayana mantras are all derived from Vedic sources, but later Buddhists innovated on their own. Guruyoga has a list of Buddhist mantras and deities and their original Vedic versions on his site. Pali teachings on the other hand have very less mystical formuale, mantras etc. Prof. Sanderson, I was referred to to read more.

 

Vajrayana: It's origin and function

 

The Influence of Śaivism on Pāla Buddhism

 

Tibetan Buddhists did go to India to borrow and Indian Buddhists were no less than any Christina missionaries of Spain in their aggressive attempts to spread Buddhism, sometimes using force, in many places.

 

I would like to hear more on this topic by guruyoga who is a noted teacher of mantras and has traditional learning in both Hindu and Buddhist tantras. ps Please reply to my PM when possible.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Ascension20122

[dwai]

It may be helpful to consider that centuries back, nothing was written down, and all transmissions were passed orally, so its not too accurate to lay the claim as you have made above. Its not hard to imagine how unobstructed oral transmissions can be, so i would imagine there would be mystics carrying these transmissions far and wide, still in its oral mode, long before any of this began to find their way into written forms, that which you call the Sanatana Dharma. India, being the size it is, would have, even within its own boundaries, evolved a large variety of scripts, each with its own peculiar connotations and nuances, so would it be safe to assume that even within the Brahminic lineages there could already have taken place some sort of cross-pollination, which could lead to the presumtive possibility that the purity of the Sanatana Dharma is likely from the point of faith alone.

 

By the time written scripts began to gain significance, the Pali oral teachings have already been carried far and wide, eventually to lands as far as Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Mongolia, Tibet and so on. Not surprisingly, there have been found carvings of Pali texts in Aramaic, the language of Christ.

 

Thankfully, this did not devalue the efficacious essence of the teachings, including the mantras that were transmitted down to all the various lineages throughout history.

 

Its apparently not as straightforward as you have wanted to assume here - its not like the Buddhists went to India to borrow mantras, but mantras somehow found their way, with the help of many mystical adepts who have transcended all religious leanings, out of India and gradually seeped into so many other spiritual traditions, even long before the Sanatana Dharma was officially designated.

 

I am only thinking out loud here, and offering a different view point.

 

Interesting thoughts no doubt. However, Sanatana Dharma has never been officially designated (there is no central body, no committee to ratify or certify anything). However, that which is Sanatana, is by definition without a beginning or an end.

 

Also, the very nature of the transmissions in the Vedic tradition ensures complete integrity of the material. Why? If I have time, I will elucidate (not trying to be snarky, it really is a long topic).

 

So why a claim such as this is made? Because Sanatana Dharma (Vedas) predate the Buddha. The transmissions thereof predate the Buddha (therefore Buddhism as well). I have the greatest respect for the Mahayana/Madhyamika tradition so in my books, it is a very good thing to have happened. So, no disrespect meant towards Buddhism (and I hope this doesn't end up becoming a flame-war between the two sister traditions here).

 

Also, the cross-pollination indeed could have been bi-directional, each helping the other strengthen the other's philosophical premise (great debates through history between adepts of each tradition). But the fact of the matter is that in Mantras, the technical details matter a lot (should someone want to counter this, please do so).

[安永樂]

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Edited August 22, 2019 by 安永樂

[3bob]

All mantra begins with Om and ends with Om... both the simply pure and also the greatly grand Om. Travel to the begining and to end of Om which never ends or begins.

 

Om Shanti, Om Shanti, Om Shanti Om...

Edited January 20, 2012 by 3bob

[gatito]

Edited August 30, 2012 by gatito

[gatito]

There's a great mantra given here by Thich Nhat Hanh if anyone wants a mantra.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

I believe that there are also three other organisations who may be handing out bija mantras in this way, The Study Society, Acem and Natural Stress Relief Meditation.

 

Take care.

Hi Gatito,

The Natural Stress Relief mantra sounds like "Lum". (rhymes with bum). It could be "Lam". I don't know how it is spelled because it was not written down in the manual. It was delvered via sound file. I wonder if that was how NSR circumvented the TM copyrights..

 

TI

[gatito]

Hi TI

 

I'd be very suprised if you can copyright-protect a mantra. Maybe I'm mistaken?

 

G

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI

 

I'd be very suprised if you can copyright-protect a mantra. Maybe I'm mistaken?

 

G

 

Hi Gatito,

I'd be surprised too , but I wouldn't put it passed the TM org!

I did find this:

link: http://oshofriendsinternational.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=137&Itemid=219

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has copyrighted transcendental meditation and just underneath in a small circle you will find written TM -- that means trademark!

 

and this:

link: http://tmfree.blogspot.ca/2007/03/implications-of-norway-copyright.html

... a Norwegian court has ruled the TM Org does not hold the copyright to "Transcendental Meditation." (Although the court ruled they do hold the copyright to "TM.") The court specifically referenced the fact that the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is old, and wondered in the opinion who would hold the rights to TM after his death.

 

This may be the beginning of the end for the TM Org's monopoly on the teaching. Already, all around the world TM initiators have begun teaching Transcendental Meditation outside of the TM Org's control. This ruling -- after appeals and possible similar findings in other countries -- may hasten and broaden this process.

 

To be honest, I don't know how I feel about this. The situation with TM casualities is already serious. Will it become more serious when unregulated teachers are spreading Transcendental Meditation?

 

Makes me wonder about AYP..

 

link: http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=692133

DES MOINES, IOWA (AP) -- The Maharishi Foundation USA Inc. has sued Meditation House LLC, alleging infringement on the foundation's trademark covering the teaching of transcendental meditation.

 

TI

[gatito]

Hi TI

 

Good to hear from you and thanks for the links.

 

I'd been wondering how you've been getting on with the Cobra Breath Kundalini?

 

BTW what did you think of the Thich Nhat Hanh video? Didn't you study under the direct supervision of another well-known Buddhist teacher?

 

G

[Tibetan_Ice]

[gatito]

Hi TI

 

I'm not sure that you derailed the thread.

 

I was very interested to read about the bhuta shuddhi mantra and I did a search that led me to some very interesting information about bija mantras here: - http://swamij.com/chakra-meditation.htm

 

and the universal mantra here: - http://swamij.com/soham-mantra.htm

 

So, thanks for the post, it's appreciated. I may give this bhuta shuddhi mantra and the soham mantra a go myself.

 

My own practices are going well thanks; I hope that yours are going well too.

 

g

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI

 

I'm not sure that you derailed the thread.

 

I was very interested to read about the bhuta shuddhi mantra and I did a search that led me to some very interesting information about bija mantras here: - http://swamij.com/chakra-meditation.htm

 

and the universal mantra here: - http://swamij.com/soham-mantra.htm

 

So, thanks for the post, it's appreciated. I may give this bhuta shuddhi mantra and the soham mantra a go myself.

 

My own practices are going well thanks; I hope that yours are going well too.

 

g

 

Hi Gatito

Those mantras from swamij are not the Bhuta Shuddhi mantra given by Sri Anandi Ma.

The one from Sri Anandi Ma is over 42 sanskrit words long.. It took me 3 days to learn it. They give you a recording with the correct pronunciations as part of the shaktipat kit that they send you.

Here is the English rough translation of it ( I've also omitted the extra Om's, Swaha's, and the So Ham, Hansaha.. ):

 

OM, from the junction of being to the head by the shushumna path, I, to Shiva, in the highest Shiva place, I join in union (surrender) YAM, subtle body dry! Dry! RAM, causal body, burn! Burn! Highest Shiva, by the sushumna path to the root junction glow! Glow! Blaze! Blaze! Blaze forth! He am I, I am He.

 

As part of the shaktipat initiation, you have to repeat this mantra 108 times every day for 10 days.

 

If you would like the sanskrit version of the Bhuta Shuddi Mantra, I will not give it out. You would have to seek shaktipat or shaktipat in absentia (remotely) from Sri Anandi Ma in order to get it.

 

Here is the link: http://www.dyc-nc.org/

 

On the other hand, here is a mantra meditation that is quite powerful, by Mark Griffin:

http://hardlight.org/om_namah_shivaya.html

 

 

TI