Rooting

[Taomeow]

The three nails -- http://www.williamcc....com/3nails.htm

Sung Kwa -- http://www.williamcc...%20Medialis.htm

 

This may be on a tangent, but somewhat relevant... I've read that guided imagery/visualizations used therapeutically sometimes helps people combat most serious illness, and is even credited with some "miraculous" cures. So... there was a study that compared the results of "precise" visualizations vs. "metaphorical" ones in cancer patients. The "precise" group visualized their immune system in the greatest detail possible. They studied "how it all works" and then visualized it in a "physiologically correct" fashion -- white blood cells attacking malignant cells, molecules of drugs inducing apoptosis, macrofagi cleaning up the debris, and so on. The "metaphorical" group, in the meantime, visualized something creative -- knights in shining armor attacking the dark castle, flocks of seagulls pecking away at weird mutant fish, whatever. The results were interesting. The "metaphorical" group had consistently better cure rates than patients who don't use guided imagery, but the "precise," "physiologically correct" visualization group did not -- they didn't differ in their outcomes from patients who don't use visualizations at all. "No one knows why" as they usually say in these cases, but that's the facts.

 

I think the same outcome would apply to rooting, or any other taiji element for that matter. The body is just way too complex for "precise" imagery. The body is a fractal. When you measure a fractal, you have to make a decision about the scale at which you do your measurements. A very crude one -- say the fractal of the coastline between Del Mar and La Jolla -- will yield, e.g., 15 miles. But if you want more precision, say measure around each stone, you may need a measuring tape that's 15,000 miles long. But what if you want still more precision, say measure around each grain of sand?.. Your measuring tape will have to be light years long and still you might run out!

 

Now then. Taiji is not just physical, mechanical, what have you, it's also very abstract (according to Chen Zhonghua who used these exact words when explaining rooting -- "very abstract.") What it means is that if you approach it on the purely anatomical level, you've made a decision about your scale -- and this one happens to be too crude, there's infinite aspects that it does not catch, "infinite" is what "abstract" is about. You could decide to follow the dynamics not on the anatomical level but, e.g., metabolic -- and measure the blood flow to various muscles, oxidation processes, lactic acid production, whatever. You could go to a finer scale yet and try to adjust the biophysical aspects -- ion exchanges, ATP production, electrochemical reactions, fluctuations in cellular walls permeability, what not. Who's to say which scale applied to the task is the correct one? Anatomical is only attractive because it seems "more available" -- but does it really make it "more fruitful?"

 

So, imagery instead of "precise anatomy" has the advantage of bypassing this problem of an arbitrarily pre-selected scale. A knight in shining armor is not precise, but if you decide to assume the posture of a knight, you don't imitate a programmer sitting in front of the computer, you do something else -- with all your muscles all at once and your facial expression too and perhaps the heart as well -- and the whole fractal moves on all scales, in unison, not just this muscle or that. Similarly, with rooting, if you go muscle by muscle, point by point, you are likely to miss the point. If you go with an image instead -- "sitting down on a horse," e.g. (or on a dragon-cat, as I like to visualize it, the dragon-cat having huge paws with huge claws digging into the earth, the tail wrapped around the axis mundi, and so on), the whole fractal will adjust on all scales, on autopilot. That's why I read Songs of Taiji instead of anatomy books to understand the "theory" of rooting. But the theory of course is still a scale too crude, too concrete. Rooting is VERY abstract. That's because its scales are infinite... and infinity is neither concrete nor graspable by gross anatomy.

 

Um... am I making sense?

[ChiDragon]

If you bend the knees, SOMEmuscles will be contracted but not :

- ALL and not

- in an intentional and deliberate manner as you have stated it in your post earlier

 

You can do it partially or all. It was all under your control. The more contraction the stronger the legs are and more firmly rooted to the ground.

[Bubbles]

Thanks for the advice, but this is all common knowledge in the martial arts industry. Why one has to go through all the referencec and credentials. If people don't understand the basic fundamental concepts, then, I think I am talking to the wrong crowd.

 

Lam Kam Chuen, BK Frantzis, Terry Dunn, Ramel Rones from YMAA

and

Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei, Wang xian

and

My teacher whose lineage in qigong traces back to Pei Xirong

 

None of them say what you say.

 

I don't now every teacher but come on ChiDragon,..it's time to be reasonable now, it is becoming absurd.

Edited September 19, 2011 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

You can do it partially or all. It was all under your control. The more contraction the stronger the legs are and more firmly rooted to the ground.

 

Yu Yong Nian (Lam Kam Chuen's teacher) and Lam Kam chuen talk about contracting calf muscles in series of 30 and say that when you do this you MUST try to relax the other muscles. The same exercise apply for the hands. It develops internal sensitivity and power. It is needed in Da Cheng Chuan.

But as far as rooting is concerned, no.

Edited September 19, 2011 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

 

Um... am I making sense?

 

Yes!

[ChiDragon]

Well, people do use words in terms of a common language in their own field to communicate. An outsider didn't know their terms would not and will not understand what they are saying. The terms are to be understood, spontaneously, only if one is within the esoteric group.

[Bubbles]

Well, people do use words in terms of a common language in their own field to communicate. An outsider didn't know their terms would not and will not understand what they are saying. The terms are to be understood, spontaneously, only if one is within the esoteric group.

 

Saying that you should NOT contract ALL muscles is nothing esoteric. It is plain and simple and taught openly by all the masters I have heard, seen or read.

[ChiDragon]

But as far as rooting is concerned, no.

 

It all depends how much you know and who do you listen to. If you have to go by what everyone says without any of your own conception, you better carry a big thick notebook with you all the time everywhere you go.

[ChiDragon]

Saying that you should NOT contract ALL muscles is nothing esoteric. It is plain and simple and taught openly by all the masters I have heard, seen or read.

 

Even though, they don't spell it out, but when you bend your knees your muscles are contracted automatically without any intention. Otherwise, you cannot withstand the duration of 20 minutes for Zhan Zhuang. You don't need anyone to tell you, but you will feel that your feet are firmly standing on the ground or floor.

Edited September 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

It all depends how much you know and who do you listen to. If you have to go by what everyone says without any of your own conception, you better carry a big thick notebook with you all the time everywhere you go.

 

When it comes to zhan zhuang, don't need to, they all say the same thing about the use of muscles.You can fine tune your work with them, but it will never include contraction of all the muscles at the same time.

 

Your style of answer- each time avoiding the precise topic and displace it to a minor subject ( carrying notebooks, language matter etc) speaks volume about your level of integrity in the discussions we have at TTB. History is repeating itself each time when you chime in with the misinformation content you spread and which is mainly your invention.

[dawei]

The more contraction the stronger the legs are and more firmly rooted to the ground.

If 'internal and external' are truly united, then contraction will probably change the rooting to more like grounding; ergo, you break the rooting. Contraction is tension; tension is resistance; resistance to what? TO energy flowing down, yours and your opponents.

 

As my qigong master says: 'if all you are doing is grounding, then you had better have one hell of an iron shirt when I strike you... instead, root and relax and channel my energy down to the earth'.

[ChiDragon]

When it comes to zhan zhuang, don't need to, they all say the same thing about the use of muscles.You can fine tune your work with them, but it will never include contraction of all the muscles at the same time.

 

Your style of answer- each time avoiding the precise topic and displace it to a minor subject ( carrying notebooks, language matter etc) speaks volume about your level of integrity in the discussions we have at TTB. History is repeating itself each time when you chime in with the misinformation content you spread and which is mainly your invention.

WOW...mainly my invention, I wish....!!! :lol:

Edited September 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

You don't need anyone to tell you, but you will feel that your feet are firmly standing on the ground or floor.

I think your just feeling grounding; not rooting and mistaking the two.

[Bubbles]

Even though, they don't spell it out, but when you bend your knees your muscles are contracted automatically without any intention. Otherwise, you cannot withstand the duration of 20 minutes for Zhan Zhuang. You don't need anyone to tell you, but you will feel that your feet are firmly standing on the ground or floor.

Again you are changing the content of your posts.

 

Should I remind it to you?

 

Exactly, there is one more thing you need to do is to contract all the legs muscles and bend the knees by sending all the body weights to the legs. Then, your feet and legs should feel locked tight to the ground.

 

Have a close look to it, please. This is a mirror of your thoughts.

Enough for me, I have already said, with others, what I had to. You are free to contract everything you want and call it zhan zhuang. But it is empty talk.

[Bubbles]

WOW...mainly my invention, I wish....!!! :lol:

 

Your dream has come true, open the eyes!

[Protector]

let's try a more practical approach, rather then he said she said

On chi level let's see what we know, relaxed muscles allow easy flow of chi,

tension creates blockages and doesn't allow it to flow,

something done many times before makes it easier in the future,

building more power is good, letting it go to waste is bad

So what works out now?

[zanshin]

Probably more than anyone wanted to know re. physiology of standing.

 

http://www.saunalahti.fi/borgbros/bisoni/bal%20ms%20emg%20cop.pdf

[zanshin]

As far as application if someone is striking you.

 

If want to seem tough and stand there and take it tense everything up and breathe out when they hit.

 

If you want to be able to block, react and counter, stay relaxed.

 

If you don't want to get hit, don't be standing there when the strike comes.

[ChiDragon]

Have a close look to it, please. This is a mirror of your thoughts.

Enough for me, I have already said, with others, what I had to. You are free to contract everything you want and call it zhan zhuang. But it is empty talk.

 

You have reminded me of an old Chinese saying:

五十步笑百步

Fifty steps laughing at hundred steps.

 

Translation:

Somebody is still fifty steps behind and laughing at somebody that was way ahead.

[Bubbles]

You have reminded me of an old Chinese saying:

五十步笑百步

Fifty steps laughing at hundred steps.

 

Translation:

Somebody is still fifty steps behind and laughing at somebody that was way ahead.

 

hehehe thank you for your kind words from your kind heart

 

Have you noticed that I didn't say I know more, I said all teachers and masters I am aware of say something quite different from you. So it seems reasonable to question your claim either theoretically and practically (have you ever done zhan zhuang for real???)

I leave you going far ahead, I have no interest in getting somewhere before anyone, I am just following people I trust, and check the confirmation of my experience and benefit from the testimonies of others.

 

Blessing to you and your practice.

 

Please, in order to maintain good standards of discussion, follow the advice give to you by Taomeow in this thread about your sources, it will dramatically add to the credit of your claims and perhaps enlighten us

 

Edit for spelling

Edited September 20, 2011 by bubbles

[Mokona]

I've been practicing rooting and grounding from a great fellow who answered a request for more information on the subject. I've been using his stance, stay relaxed and watch six different points(and smile)

 

the 'golden triangle' not leaning too far forward or back, so the weight of the body drops through the center of the foot at the bubbling springs.

 

pelvis tucked in

 

'qua' open - probably a misspelling

 

back straight and suspended

 

crown pulled upwards as if pulled by a string.

 

jaw relaxed, tongue up

 

shoulders down and relaxed (with armpits a bit open) and hands turned slightly outwards.

 

 

Then breathing into the Dan Tien, relaxing and keeping the positive emotions running.

[Bubbles]

However, if the student was moved an inch by not locking his feet to the ground, then he was not qualify for the next lesson as part of the encouragement and punishment.

 

Do you equate "locking the feet to the ground" to "contracting all the leg muscles"?

If yes, it really sounds strange to me because I have seen long time zhan zhuang practionners (Lam Kam chuen students) without all the leg muscles contracted and I swear you that you couldn't move them at all, they were real mountains.

 

If what you wrote is your experience I respect it but it doesn't fit in mine.

 

I don't have a problem with my teacher asking me to stand for three years minimum before teaching anything else and collecting a fee. It is a matter of trust and respect, not a monetary relation.I don't go to my teacher as I would go to take a gym lesson. I go to him as if I would go to see my father who is willing to teach me something. This is my experience and will.

 

Be well.

Edited September 22, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Do you equate "locking the feet to the ground" to "contracting all the leg muscles"?

If yes, it really sounds strange to me because I have seen long time zhan zhuang practionners (Lam Kam chuen students) without all the leg muscles contracted and I swear you that you couldn't move them at all, they were real mountains.

 

If what you wrote is your experience I respect it but it doesn't fit in mine.

 

I don't have a problem with my teacher asking me to stand for three years minimum before teaching anything else and collecting a fee. It is a matter of trust and respect, not a monetary relation.I don't go to my teacher as I would go to take a gym lesson. I go to him as if I would go to see my father who is willing to teach me something. This is my experience and will.

 

Be well.

 

"contracting all the leg muscles"

Ok, I think this is the peculiarity in the Chinese language. It always sounds paradoxical if one taken it literally. When the book says relax or soong(松), general speaking as a novice, that is what one will do to build up the muscle tone. At the advance level, one will contract the muscles as required for the movements and relaxed again. The purpose of Zuan Zhuang to to be able to control the muscles by contraction. Thus, if you are relaxing your leg muscles all the time, then you are not really progressing to put your muscles into application. One would keep in mind, if one is not in action, then relax. When in action, one would want all the leg muscles to work for oneself for stabilization and balancing. Thus there is Yin; there is Yang.

 

Well, I can tell you this. Everyone has a threshold where someone can be pushed him away. In order to increase the threshold, one can apply more strength(Jin) in the leg muscles by contraction to have a firmer stance for a greater resistance to withstand the external force.

Edited September 22, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

"contracting all the leg muscles"

Ok, I think this is the peculiarity in the Chinese language. It always sounds paradoxical if one taken it literally. When the book says relax or soong(松), general speaking as a novice, that is what one will do to build up the muscle tone. At the advance level, one will contract the muscles as required for the movements and relaxed again. The purpose of Zuan Zhuang to to be able to control the muscles by contraction. Thus, if you are relaxing your leg muscles all the time, then you are not really progressing to put your muscles into application. One would keep in mind, if one is not in action, then relax. When in action, one would want all the leg muscles to work for oneself for stabilization and balancing. Thus there is Yin; there is Yang.

 

Most of the nasty stuff between us could have been avoided if you had expressed yourself from the beginning like you just did . This doesn't erase our differences but at least the picture is clearer and this is good in itself.

 

Which Chinese book are you quoting?

 

Well, I can tell you this. Everyone has a threshold where someone can be pushed him away. In order to increase the threshold, one can apply more strength(Jin) in the leg muscles by contraction to have a firmer stance for a great resistance to withstand the external force.

 

If you mean that bending the knees, as if you were about to sit but not sit,automatically contract the muscles and gives you a firmer stance; I agree.

 

But to me there is more in zhan zhuang and rooting than contracting some muscles. It comes down to alignements and body mechanics (bones), tendons opening etc which all act upon muscles state farther than the simple alternative contraction/relaxation and we did not say a word about the mind nor about qi circulation.

Edited September 22, 2011 by bubbles

[mYTHmAKER]

ChiDragon, on 22 September 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

 

Well, I can tell you this. Everyone has a threshold where someone can be pushed him away. In order to increase the threshold, one can apply more strength(Jin) in the leg muscles by contraction to have a firmer stance for a great resistance to withstand the external force.

 

 

Don't forget about lowering your center of gravity.

If my center is lower than yours you won't be able to move me