Stosh Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, OldDog said: You make reference to ample evidence ... which is not yet on the table for discussion ... antecedent missing ... so it's hard to say just what you are referring to. The antecedent is that there are hundreds of different interpretations as to what the texts actually say, and who the commentary is aimed at, including at least three broad schools of thought. Quote I am always suspicious of things that are clearly understandable. If one accepts an assertion ... has one really learned anything, internalized it? Not usually , I would say we are often in accord with an idea before hearing it, and only accept it being said from another source , at the time. Quote I would argue that it is precisely lack of clarity that causes us to turn an idea over in our minds ... explore it's possibilities ... develop a sense of its limits. That isn't informing you , it is you taking guesses, because it was poorly explained. Quote In fact, I think an argument can be made that there can be no such thing as clarity. What we express as words is no more than that ... words. Words have different meanings to different people ... especially where there are cross cultural influences ... and it is unlikely that the words will be received the same way among a diverse group of people. So, how do we get to a point where ... as you say ... a majority would agree? Well, you must at least think that the imprecision of word usage isn't a tremendous insurmountable hurdle , since you use them with some expectation of being understood, yourself. They're good enough , much of the time, to get folks on the same page about what is being indicated .. whether there is agreement as well, on the content, is a second hurdle. A majority agreeing on what I was describing as my lunch , may not agree on having the same ingredients on their sub, but if I am communicating clearly , they aren't thinking I am speaking of U-boats. Quote One way would be through discussion ... if forums like this one ... where ideas, interpretations are shared in a collegial manner... and we can all coalesce around a common understanding. ; hypothetically . Quote So, I'm fine with creative writing ... varying interpretations ... gives me room to come to a workable understanding of my own. In other words you don't care what the original intent of the author was, you want to invent meanings that suit you , and ascribe them to the reputable source. I Can't says I blame you, that's popular , its been done for two thousand years in China. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted August 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Stosh said: Well, you must at least think that the imprecision of word usage isn't a tremendous insurmountable hurdle , since you use them with some expectation of being understood, yourself. True enough. Words ... written or spoken ... are simply the predominant form for communicating ideas ... emphasis on the word ideas. Effective communication has to do with creating a mental image (idea) in the mind of the recipient. Some people are better at it than others. In my experience, words alone are insufficient. 10 minutes ago, Stosh said: In other words you don't care what the original intent of the author was, you want to invent meanings that suit you , and ascribe them to the reputable source. Whoa, Stosh. I have no doubt that authors have original intent ... just my or anyone elses ability to know it. Intent and meaning do not have to be the same thing. As far as inventing meaning goes ... we all do that. We listen to what is being said and decide if it has meaning for us ... or not. If no, then we don't retain the info. If yes, we incorporate it ... or at least what we think we understand ... into our world view. How well we understand what the author meant is dependent on his/her ability to create an image/impression in the mind of the recipient. And that is an art form. Good discussion! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) On 14/08/2018 at 5:12 PM, Stosh said: To know unconsciously is best. Did Cleary really write this ?! Wow. It is gibberish. =================================== Knowledge outside and inside is good .... if that is what you seek. Know what you want, and seek it. Know what you wish, and do what you wish to do. Whatever it is. Whatever. If you wish to go deep into absorption in the subject, then do so. It is also "knowledge", but yes of a totally different realm. Yet you might wish for it. So answer that wish. Find a good teacher and sit with him and grow. What do you wish ? Just be honest. Then follow. Follow your self. What is the capital of Uzbekistan ? Edited August 21, 2018 by rideforever 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 21, 2018 1 minute ago, rideforever said: Did Cleary really write this ?! Wow. It is gibberish. =================================== Knowledge outside and inside is good .... if that is what you seek. Know what you want, and seek it. Know what you wish, and do what you wish to do. Whatever it is. Whatever. If you wish to go deep into absorption in the subject, then do so. It is also "knowledge", but yes of a totally different realm. Yet you might wish for it. So answer that wish. Find a good teacher and sit with him and grow. What do you wish ? Just be honest. Then follow. Follow your self. What is the capital of Uzbekistan ? Uzbekistan City ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 22, 2018 19 hours ago, OldDog said: True enough. Words ... written or spoken ... are simply the predominant form for communicating ideas ... emphasis on the word ideas. Effective communication has to do with creating a mental image (idea) in the mind of the recipient. Some people are better at it than others. In my experience, words alone are insufficient. Whoa, Stosh. I have no doubt that authors have original intent ... just my or anyone elses ability to know it. Intent and meaning do not have to be the same thing. As far as inventing meaning goes ... we all do that. We listen to what is being said and decide if it has meaning for us ... or not. If no, then we don't retain the info. If yes, we incorporate it ... or at least what we think we understand ... into our world view. How well we understand what the author meant is dependent on his/her ability to create an image/impression in the mind of the recipient. And that is an art form. Good discussion! Well yeah, there is a degree of imprecision , sometimes my expectation about what I am going to be able to relate and ,have actually been able to portray.. don't match close. I guess I am not as good of a verbal artist as I like to think, but it seems an audience has things it wants to hear, preferentially. And in a combo, my lack of patience , presumptions about how obvious a factoid is, and the other things adds up to a lack of success , often enough. Your idea of meaning is a bit self centered ,,, not that there is anything wrong with that, but its just that the author has both his intents and his meanings, that you, or I ,are not invited to modify. I think we are invited to hear him out, give the stuff a fair shake, BEfore modification to our own taste or rejection. I'm getting tired though, of banging my head against that tree. I want a new angle. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
