The zeitgeist movement - even your parrot can spread the word

[Marblehead]

The main thing is the people of the world need to be woken up to the possibilities of Ideas that are outside of the conventional greed based thinking. And that's what they represent to me.

 

Yeah, all of what you have said is valid, especially this above. I do speak to this on occasion. But I really don't expect people like Gates and Buffet to suddenly see the light and return most of their money back into society.

 

Of course, the problem doesn't lie with only the wealthy. The world has become over-populated with humans. And people are still making babies as if that was their only purpose in life. Isn't a dozen kids a little excessive? And governments and many religions support having many children.

 

Generally speaking, modern man has been on the planet for about 400,000 years. And look at how much we have transformed the planet. I just don't see any indications that we are going to change our ways any time soon.

 

Yes, we can talk about it. But I wonder if all the talking is of any value when no one is listening.

 

No, I don't know of a better way. Education is a start though.

[strawdog65]

Yeah, all of what you have said is valid, especially this above. I do speak to this on occasion. But I really don't expect people like Gates and Buffet to suddenly see the light and return most of their money back into society.

 

Of course, the problem doesn't lie with only the wealthy. The world has become over-populated with humans. And people are still making babies as if that was their only purpose in life. Isn't a dozen kids a little excessive? And governments and many religions support having many children.

 

Generally speaking, modern man has been on the planet for about 400,000 years. And look at how much we have transformed the planet. I just don't see any indications that we are going to change our ways any time soon.

 

Yes, we can talk about it. But I wonder if all the talking is of any value when no one is listening.

 

No, I don't know of a better way. Education is a start though.

 

 

Hi Marbles

 

I agree with you.....

 

The only way I can see such drastic changes taking place is a complete

removal of the status quo. A rough ride is what it will take.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marbles

 

I agree with you.....

 

The only way I can see such drastic changes taking place is a complete

removal of the status quo. A rough ride is what it will take.

 

There may actually be an awakening going on at this moment. I didn't read the article but NY Times had one saying that the Wall Street demonstrations are spreading to other cities.

 

Funny too, the NY Times reported that police chiefs dressed in their white desk shirts are going out and interacting with the demonstrators. I guess it was safe to get out from the safety of the desk since this has been a very peaceful demonstration.

 

So there is the possibility that the OWS demonstrations is the beginning of something much bigger to come in the near future.

[gendao]

When you remove the time and effort of people having to provide these things for themselves, through the time wasted working at jobs which mean and do nothing to better society, imagine the Paradigm Change that would take place in the minds of people.

Um, how do you remove the time and effort of people having to provide for themselves?

 

 

 

 

Car driven by Communist "equality":

Car driven by capitalist "greed":

Yes, to each their own..

[strawdog65]

Um, how do you remove the time and effort of people having to provide for themselves?

 

 

 

 

Car driven by Communist "equality":

Car driven by capitalist "greed":

Yes, to each their own..

 

 

 

Hi Vortex,

If you are serious, the please take a small amount of your time and look here.

The following excerpt is taken from "the Venus Project" website under faq.

You can find it here:

 

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/faq

 

 

Question #64: "What do you consider a "high standard of living", which everyone in the world is entitled to? And who is the one to decide this?"

 

"In a resource-based economy many of the shortages that we have today could easily be overcome by technological ingenuity and the reduction of waste. For example, we could use a form of evaporative condensation in all areas where there are water shortages. We could provide canals from the sea into the land and cover the canals for several miles with transparent enclosures. These would be used for evaporative desalinization. In the state of Florida alone we have close to 50 watts per s yard, which is not harnessed at this time by solar heat concentrators. All highways, parking lots, and rooftops in the new cities would be used to heat water for all of the community needs without the burning of fossil fuels. By using geothermal energy alone (the natural heat of the earth), we could propel the world's society for the next thousand years but this is relatively untapped. There is also wave power, wind power, heat concentrators and many sources of untapped power. Science has never been given the assignment of the production of an abundance for the benefit of all of the earth's people.

 

A high standard of living would mean that all members of society would have access to all of the necessities to sustain life - medical care, education, food, clothing, housing, entertainment, leisure time and more. Man-hours could be reduced considerably until completely eliminated. By eliminating planned obsolescence and the replication of the same products by many different manufactures and by surpassing the need for advertising, sales, lawyers, business personnel, bankers and all of the other non-productive profession we could easily provide many more goods and services to all people. Today's middle class lives better than all of the kings of the past. In a resource- based economy, when the main thrust and total aim of science and innovative technology are directed towards a higher standard of living for all, our life style could far surpass anything imagined today."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Then again, if you're not...then enjoy the wealth you have, at the expense of

those who have pretty much nothing. It's the attitude that I have "mine", so who cares about anyone else that's the problem. What wealth we have is not always deserved.

[gendao]

Then again, if you're not...then enjoy the wealth you have, at the expense of those who have pretty much nothing. It's the attitude that I have "mine", so who cares about anyone else that's the problem. What wealth we have is not always deserved.

Hey, I am ALL for more efficient living! I agree that could reduce wasted time & energy. But, windmills don't build themselves, either. At some point, work is still involved.

 

Anyhow, free-market wealth is not a zero-sum game. If anything, the more money I make, the more taxes I pay and the more you get from that.

 

Africa has few multi-billionaires and most everyone there is still dirt poor. So, simply eliminating all the rich from your society will often make you poorer, if anything. This is because profit can be tied to many infinite resources like productivity (and is therefore not zero-sum). So, if you want to become wealthier, YOU need to become more productive - not try to reduce the size of my piece of the pie as if that would magically increase yours.

 

That's like if I had 4 toys and you had only 2...thinking that taking 1 away from me would somehow add 1 to you?

 

Seriously, I don't blame Bill Gates for me not being richer...WTF???

 

But if you really wanted to increase the general wealth of a country - you'd have to minimize all the parasitic rich AND poor. Because mooches (who consume far more than they contribute) fall into both classes.

 

 

Anyhow, you and anyone else is perfectly free to start a "Venus Project" resource-based commune as a pilot test anywhere RIGHT NOW. There is nothing stopping you. The Taoist way is to allow movements to grow naturally on their own from the grass-roots level. If they possess enough effective merit, then they will eventually passing a tipping point to the mainstream.. So, go for it!

Edited October 4, 2011 by vortex

[strawdog65]

Hey, I am ALL for more efficient living! I agree that could reduce wasted time & energy. But, windmills don't build themselves, either. At some point, work is still involved.

 

Anyhow, free-market wealth is not a zero-sum game. If anything, the more money I make, the more taxes I pay and the more you get from that.

 

Africa has few multi-billionaires and most everyone there is still dirt poor. So, simply eliminating all the rich from your society will often make you poorer, if anything. This is because profit can be tied to many infinite resources like productivity (and is therefore not zero-sum). So, if you want to become wealthier, YOU need to become more productive - not try to reduce the size of my piece of the pie as if that would magically increase yours.

 

That's like if I had 4 toys and you had only 2...thinking that taking 1 away from me would somehow add 1 to you?

 

Seriously, I don't blame Bill Gates for me not being richer...WTF???

 

But if you really wanted to increase the general wealth of a country - you'd have to minimize all the parasitic rich AND poor. Because mooches (who consume far more than they contribute) fall into both classes.

 

 

Anyhow, you and anyone else is perfectly free to start a "Venus Project" resource-based commune as a pilot test anywhere RIGHT NOW. There is nothing stopping you. The Taoist way is to allow movements to grow on their own from the grass-roots level. If they possess enough effective merit, then they will eventually passing a tipping point to the mainstream.. So, go for it!

 

Vortex,

 

To understand what the Venus Project wants to accomplish an understanding of a

Resource based economy is necessary. Here is a small amount of info.

#2 faq from the Venus project site.

 

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/faq

 

#2 What is a Resource-Based Economy?

 

To transcend these limitations, The Venus Project proposes we work toward a worldwide, resource-based economy, a holistic social and economic system in which the planetary resources are held as the common heritage of all the earth's inhabitants. The current practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant, counter-productive, and falls far short of meeting humanity's needs.

 

Simply stated, within a Resource Based Economy we will utilize existing resources - rather than money - to provide an equitable method of distribution in the most humane and efficient manner. It is a system in which all goods and services are available to everyone without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.

 

To better understand a resource-based economy, consider this. If all the money in the world disappeared overnight, as long as topsoil, factories, personnel and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we needed to fulfill most human needs. It is not money that people require, but rather free access to most of their needs without worrying about financial security or having to appeal to a government bureaucracy. In a resource-based economy of abundance, money will become irrelevant.

 

We have arrived at a time when new innovations in science and technology can easily provide abundance to all of the world's people. It is no longer necessary to perpetuate the conscious withdrawal of efficiency by planned obsolescence, perpetuated by our old and outworn profit system. If we are genuinely concerned about the environment and our fellow human beings, if we really want to end territorial disputes, war, crime, poverty and hunger, we must consciously reconsider the social processes that led us to a world where these factors are common. Like it or not, it is our social processes - political practices, belief systems, profit-based economy, our culture-driven behavioral norms - that lead to and support hunger, war, disease and environmental damage.

 

The aim of this new social design is to encourage an incentive system no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. These new incentives would encourage people toward self-fulfillment and creativity, both materially and spiritually.

[michael245]

Wow!Here is more conspiracy videos people might be intrested in.

 

 

Here's a good video on CIA FBI cointelpro,shills,provacateurs

 

Here's a good video of ALEX JONES using his FBI COINTELPRO` provacateur tactics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY8mQSCPMrg&feature=channel_video_title

Edited October 6, 2011 by michael245

[JustARandomPanda]

I haven't researched all of this completely yet but this Wiki on the Venus Project goes a bit in detail of what and how a Resource Based Economy would work.

 

Interestingly, Jacques Fresco states that the U.S. has actually used a Resource Based Economy approach on limited occasions - namely, during WWII:

 

Here's the quote:

 

"At the beginning of World War II the U.S. had a mere 600 or so first-class fighting aircraft. We rapidly overcame this short supply by turning out more than 90,000 planes a year. The question at the start of World War II was: Do we have enough funds to produce the required implements of war? The answer was no, we did not have enough money, nor did we have enough gold; but we did have more than enough resources. It was the available resources that enabled the US to achieve the high production and efficiency required to win the war. Unfortunately, this is only considered in times of war."

 

 

That has piqued my curiosity but it's so vague I'd like to see an article, book or video explaining exactly HOW the U.S. implemented this Resource Based approach.

 

I also found 2 YouTube vids that explain a Resource Based Economy though I admit I haven't watched them yet. I'm too sleepy and about to go to bed. I've got them saved so I can watch them tomorrow.

 

But I figured I'd provide what I found in case anyone else is curious about this type of economy and would like to watch them.

 

 

 

 

[JustARandomPanda]

Anyhow, you and anyone else is perfectly free to start a "Venus Project" resource-based commune as a pilot test anywhere RIGHT NOW. There is nothing stopping you. The Taoist way is to allow movements to grow naturally on their own from the grass-roots level. If they possess enough effective merit, then they will eventually passing a tipping point to the mainstream.. So, go for it!

 

Just saw this before I was about to head to bed. Yes, I agree.

 

In fact, similar ideas are in effect already. People are actually implementing many different idealistic ideas about how to live better together. I don't see why Venus Project or Zeitgeist Movement Communities couldn't start popping up. Obviously they wouldn't achieve a total Resource Based system (unless I guess they wanted to live like the Amish?) but they could at least begin to implement those aspects of being Resource Based that were under their control.

 

Anyway - These idealist-run communities have a name. They're called Intentional Communities. Many of them are based around the idea of being "green" (EcoVillages). Some are more spiritual oriented. Some are more into communal living and working, etc.

 

Here's a Wiki page about Intentional Communities

 

 

Here's the Wiki page about EcoVillages

 

 

And here's a directory if you are interested in actually trying to live this way yourself.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Why all the silly questions?

 

I don't need your jetpack.

 

I don't need to become radiation-proff.

 

Define "humanistic" for me.

 

What is the matter with free trade?

 

 

Well most of my examples were pure rhetoric, but they outline a point. You're intentionally missing the point, arent you?

 

Humanistic is that which supports the collective human prosperity. It is what aids the collective human species in thriving, more than just surviving.

 

Free trade has an inherent flaw, which you almost arrogantly outlined yourself in the corn to rice ratio.

 

Corn and rice, having individual values based on supply and demand are no different than having individual values based on need and greed.

 

So you value one over the other based on the value of the dollar, based on supply and demand, or you value one over the other based on your needs, based on your supplies.

 

WHAT'S THE REAL DIFFERENCE?

 

 

Well, if free trade were truly free, one would not be universally required to rely on one type of barter or another, I.E. cash or product.

 

What's wrong with barter? what's the real and significant difference? (there's no room for fictious debt in barter)

[strawdog65]

[Marblehead]

Well most of my examples were pure rhetoric, but they outline a point. You're intentionally missing the point, arent you?

 

Humanistic is that which supports the collective human prosperity. It is what aids the collective human species in thriving, more than just surviving.

 

Free trade has an inherent flaw, which you almost arrogantly outlined yourself in the corn to rice ratio.

 

Corn and rice, having individual values based on supply and demand are no different than having individual values based on need and greed.

 

So you value one over the other based on the value of the dollar, based on supply and demand, or you value one over the other based on your needs, based on your supplies.

 

WHAT'S THE REAL DIFFERENCE?

 

 

Well, if free trade were truly free, one would not be universally required to rely on one type of barter or another, I.E. cash or product.

 

What's wrong with barter? what's the real and significant difference? (there's no room for fictious debt in barter)

 

Are you sure I made those two statements you supposedly quoted from me? I don't think I said those things.

 

Barter vs monetary system.

 

Barter requires twice as much effort to gain those thing one needs. I don't have the time to be wasting on such matters.

 

With the monetary system I can just take my dollars and buy what I want. Requires half as much time and effort. Also, it is easier to value only one thing in the monetary system rather than having to value both things in a barter system.

 

I buy things based on the value "I" place on them. If the price is too high I buy it from someone who is asking a fair price. If everyone is asking too high a price there is a good chance I will just buy an alternative.

 

In my opinion there are way too many advantages to the monetary system to go back to the highly inefficient barter system.

 

But you go ahead on if that is your desire.

[Marblehead]

Okay, all my barter system advocates, let's propose a situation.

 

Let's say that you are working a job full time and are earning $400 per week.

 

This coming Monday you go to work and the owner of your workplace calls for a meeting of all employees.

 

The owner states that from this day forward he will pay all his employees with rice. Of course, the company you are working for grows and sells rice so it is natural that the owner would prefer this means of payment.

 

Now, $400 worth of rice is an aweful large amount of rice so unless you had a pickup truck you wouldn't even be able to take your pay home on Friday at end of business.

 

And if you can take your rice home with you you can't let it sit in the cargo bay over night because it might rain so you have to put it in a storage area somewhere.

 

Saturday and Sunday you spend all day at the flea market trying to get rid of your rice but only manage to sell or trade half of it because few people need rice right now.

 

The money you got from selling your rice is only enough to put gas in your pickup to get you back and forth to work next week.

 

You have no money to buy anything, you have $200 worth of rice that you won't have the time to try to trade or sell untill next weekend and there will be no meat in your diet all next week because you have no money to buy any.

 

Do any of you really think you would enjoy such a way of life?

[strawdog65]

Hate to throw it out there but here it is...

 

The Venus Project/ Zeitgeist has nothing to do with any kind of barter system.

 

Goods would be the right of everyone. Food, shelter, education all

part of living in a civilization... that's "civilized", would be essentially free.

Free because the benefit to society out weighs the detriment of the lack of these

things that are necessary to all human beings.

 

 

Not sure who started this "barter" line...but make no mistake

the Venus Project is not about barter. Its about equality and

whats beneficial to all mankind.

Edited October 5, 2011 by strawdog65

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Hate to throw it out there but here it is...

 

The Venus Project/ Zeitgeist has nothing to do with any kind of barter system.

 

Goods would be the right of everyone. Food, shelter, education all

part of living in a civilization... that's "civilized", would be essentially free.

Free because the benefit to society out weighs the detriment of the lack of these

things that are necessary to all human beings.

 

 

Not sure who started this "barter" line...but make no mistake

the Venus Project is not about barter. Its about equality and

whats beneficial to all mankind.

 

 

 

 

Tribal people often hold a potlatch or potluck wherein everyone who has excess gives away to those who need more.

 

A good example of what you speak of.

 

As for barter, it is almsot inevitable that people will trade goods and servaces for goods and servaces as needed or desired.

 

 

Perhaps I've got a Wii with all the trimmings: every classic NES game, all the best SNES games, and a handful of high quality N64 titles all on the console.

 

Say the next guy over wants to get a crack at my games, but in the new world, no one can be arsed to maintain the wifi features, let alone downloading all these awesome games.

 

 

That puts my conmsole at a desirable tier.

 

 

Maybe i'll rent it out to him for some bacon

 

 

The point being that there will always be "someone" who will acquire "something" that isnt readily available to all others. So we'll find ways to share.

 

 

Money doesnt leave a lot of room for sharing when fictious debt is created so readily and rapidly. We will have a difficult-to-impossible time adjusting to free-for-all-resources. Many things are not necessities, and we will barter for and of them.

 

 

{edit:}Oh, and marbles... check out page three if you doubt my responses are relevant to your words

 

PLUS, you take barter out of context and try to apply it to a monetary system. that's retarded, no offense. In barter, we trade goods on an as-needed basis. $400 of ANYTHING is a redundant oxymoron in barter, because a default value no longer applies.

PLUS, in barter, we eliminate the need for many economic "necessities" such as long distance travel, offices-generally speaking, banks, and 'hoarding' resources. PLUS, in barter, we generally have to become self sufficient and learn to grow our own food and slaughter our own animals, or forage and hunt.

 

In barter, dear marblehead, we live off the earth like Human beings, and not off the system like civilians.

{/edit}

Edited October 5, 2011 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[Marblehead]

Not sure who started this "barter" line...but make no mistake

the Venus Project is not about barter. Its about equality and

whats beneficial to all mankind.

 

I'm not sure either. But I truely believe that such a system is impossible considering our current way of life and the number of people on the planet.

 

Yes, the basic needs of the people. I agree that we all should have our basic needs satisfied. This is not happening in the US right now. Yes, we have a welfare system. That sucks. It only teaches people how to be lazy and get the government, by way of assessing additional taxes on the working Americans, to support them.

 

I feel that any such support system should be designed so that those who get from society are required to give something back, whatever is within their means. A little work never hurt anyone. Actually, it is good for the body and mind.

[Marblehead]

 

{edit:}Oh, and marbles... check out page three if you doubt my responses are relevant to your words

 

But you said I said something that I did not say. That is called falsifying the facts. I am completely capable of experssing myself. I really don't need anyone saying I have said something that I have not.

 

The second and third sentences are not mine. You added them and anyone who reads your post will think that I said those things. Please do not do that again.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

But you said I said something that I did not say. That is called falsifying the facts. I am completely capable of experssing myself. I really don't need anyone saying I have said something that I have not.

 

The second and third sentences are not mine. You added them and anyone who reads your post will think that I said those things. Please do not do that again.

 

 

 

 

This is all of what you said on the twentysecond of september:

 

Why all the silly questions?

 

I don't need your jetpack.

 

I don't need to become radiation-proff.

 

Define "humanistic" for me.

 

What is the matter with free trade?

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Everything i typed after that was in response.

I made one reference to something you said about corn and rice, in response to someone else.

I've not added any words to your mouth.

 

And who is going to judge the value of the corn and rice? I think one pound of corn is worth two pounds of rice. If you can't put a common value on something then it is worthless.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2011 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[Marblehead]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

That is not true. I did not make any such post at 3:30 PM, on 22 September, 2011.

 

You are still falsifying what I said.

 

 

Then i msut be falsifying what i'm quoting right now, sicne all i did was press the (+) Reply button to summon that all up.

 

 

Why.... dont you... Check. Page. THREE. you're being asinine right now, and i challenge you to end this once and for all by QUOTING YOURSELF.

 

Go to page three, i dare you to prove me wrong.

 

Anyone, ANYONE, who wants to prove this can just. look. at. page. 3.

Including you.

 

Please, you're being beligerant and asinine. It's a sad exchange we're making right here, but if you really insist that you never said anything i've quoted, then please, quote yourself and show me what you really said, or meant to say.

 

So anyways... If you cant/wont do that, then i wont bother you about this any further, however, i will retain my stance and posture on the topic.

[Marblehead]

Find a post that I made at 3:30 PM, 22 September, 2011.

 

You will not find one because I did not make that post. I wasn't even on line at that time.

 

Get real! I cannot quote a post that does not exist.

 

Yes, anyone can go to page three and see that the post does not exist.

 

But the quote is a fabrication and that is totally unacceptable.

 

Edit.

 

Okay. Wait a cotton pickin' minute.

 

That post was at 6:30 PM, not 3:30 PM.

 

Did the time stamp get changed or am I going blind?

 

I apologize. I was in error.

 

That post does exist and what you quoted is true and valid.

 

I reported your post where you said I was being asinine. I apologize for that as well.

 

Seems I have screwed up again.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Why all the silly questions?

 

I don't need your jetpack.

 

I don't need to become radiation-proff.

 

Define "humanistic" for me.

 

What is the matter with free trade?

 

Here is that post. The time stamp is correct. Reads 6:30 not 3:30.

 

So, what is in store for me? Twenty lashes with a wet noodle?

[Marblehead]

Okay. I reported myself for being an ass.

 

Sincere apologies to all the member here, especially to HNJT.

[JustARandomPanda]

LOL

 

Gotta luv them Marbles.

 

 

*Hugs MH*