The zeitgeist movement - even your parrot can spread the word

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

No, NO, NO!!!

 

We are a part of Nature. We need be a slave to nothing. That is the beauty of free will.

 

We work "with" nature, not for it nor against it. True, there are many who work against it. There are even many who have became very wealthy raping Nature.

 

Your cause is honorable. How many people do you think are listening to you and will do what you suggest?

 

 

Nature is a vast and tremendous ecology, an eco system wherein everything we do, or dont do, affects everything around us in massive and miniscule ways alike.

 

{edit:}

We are "slaves" to nature jsut the same as we are "slaves" to oxygen, H2O, and protien. We cannot exist without it and are in only that particular sense, "slaves" but all the same, this is still an inescapable heirchy of sorts. We DO work with nature, but we cannot rise above the natural laws without dire reprecussions.{/edit:}

 

EVERY effort to be "free from" nature begets an inescapable reprecussion. EVERY effort to "free ourselves from nature" causes undue harm and even death to seemingly unrelated people, even possibly on the other side of the globe, so i must ask you this:

 

Is my life worth flying in a jetpack to you?

Would you allow me to die, if it were to allow you to become radiation-proof?

Would you rather see the internet grow and humanistic tribes, villages, and towns shrink?

Is it better to have a "free trade" to enhance technology, at the expense of human physical and psychological health and well being?

 

What selfishness is this?

Edited September 22, 2011 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

What is clear is that the value system that distributes money to use as representative bartering, also uses money to establish and maintain a failing caste-system.. What is useful to civilization and the species, is to provide security to those that have been displaced by technology.. recalling the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) or the WPA (Work Projects Administration), there are very useful and fulfilling opportunities for people to reconnect with the environment.. advancing sustainable concepts away from urbanized contagions.. there are sufficient resources to be distributed equitably and maintain a higher standard of Living than is the median standard in any generally localized group.. allowing the mind to refocus on sustainable solutions.

 

Suppose every went back to the jobs they were doing in the summer of 2007.. suppose you did everything just as you did then.. suppose you worked, you bought groceries, clothes, entertainment, medical procedures, etc.. but, no money changed hands, no money existed, and no accounting was taken.. everybody just went back and started doing the same things.. and, suppose the excesses wasted on the defense of ideologies and resources, was free to be redistributed to raise the standard of living for everyone.. if the 'industrial military complex' became the CCC, working to correct the injustices of the caste-system, the rationalization for 'war' is defeated..

 

Why do you suppose the Tea Party, the majority of the Republican Party, and the general beliefs of the Conservatives are to protect the wealthy 'job creators'? because they have been conditioned to believe that if the wealthy don't make enough money, they will punish society by not creating jobs.. that is not true. The wealthy will simply find more ways to make more money, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.. they have simply conditioned a segment of society, generally conservative, to give it to them and to punish those that would distribute it based on 'need' and sustainability.. it is very doable to simply produce and consume fairly, with less effort and greater result.. take the wealth option out of the equation, the wealth/effort each person puts toward the functioning of a healthy society, is rewarded fairly, and.. unrealistic excess is redistributed based on need... sounds horrible, huh.. keep hoarding while others starve, and they will take it from you forcibly and society will reset, in reverse.. history is clear on this.

 

Be well..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

What about out here in the Mojave Desert in southern California? Not many forests or trails

[TzuJanLi]

Thanks for your post, TzuJanLi. Good thoughts.

 

On a CCC note, I heard that those folks carved out many of the walking trails in the national/state parks across the U.S.

Yes, my family is from the Great Smoky Mountains area, and there are hunderds of miles of trails throughout the area, thanks to the CCC.. the TVA system, another huge public project, transformed the region, too.. those ideals are as valid today as they were then.. while technology drives people out of the factories, they can renew restoration of the nation's infrastructure.. there is no drop in resources, only in places to apply 'sustainable change'.. out of the tech jobs, into a transformational awareness of the planet's resources..

 

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

What about out here in the Mojave Desert in southern California? Not many forests or trails

We'll send y'all luggage and snake-boots.. start walkin' to greener pastures..

 

Be well..

[Harmonious Emptiness]

it is very doable to simply produce and consume fairly, with less effort and greater result.. take the wealth option out of the equation, the wealth/effort each person puts toward the functioning of a healthy society, is rewarded fairly, and.. unrealistic excess is redistributed based on need... sounds horrible, huh.. keep hoarding while others starve, and they will take it from you forcibly and society will reset, in reverse.. history is clear on this.

 

Be well..

 

Hi TzuJanLi,

 

I agree with your position, especially about the military industrial complex being used to combat the causes of war, ie. scarcity, with peaceful and preventative productivity (especially in the area of hemp fuel, imo).

 

What I have heard as an argument against redistributing unreasonable excess though is that if there wasn't oodles of money to be made then people wouldn't invent new things and civilization would not progress.

 

I think it would progress in other more important ways, but money is a better motivator than force which often becomes the motivation when things are distributed more equally regardless of vocations.

 

I personally have faith in humanity, but I also know that there are always greedy power hungry people who manage to take control of everything and screw up what everyone would be capable of working together for the greater good.

 

One option I like, from Paul Goodman, is to have everyone work on farms for 3 years of their life, and then be provided basic food and shelter for the rest of their lives. Anyone that wants to make more money can work and become capitalists and the rest.. however, there will still be the greedy power hungry people that will allow the capitalists to own natural resources and exploit other people..

 

 

I'm still undecided on what should be done.. but I think the military could definitely be put to better purpose on growing energy crops (hemp produces 10 times the amount of fuel than corn) and other self-sustaining operatives.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

We'll send y'all luggage and snake-boots.. start walkin' to greener pastures..

 

Be well..

 

 

i do desire this... perhaps it is time to say goodbye to my surrogate family and a see-ya-later to the tao bums...

 

Maybe, maybe not. The goal has been to find work, go to college here, learn about physical fitness, wellness, and therapy, while making money to support myself and learn more about martial arts, first-hand.

 

I think i will leave when my goal is met, as i dislike the desert in contrast to the forest. Dont get me wrong, there is much beauty here, but it is not to my comfort.

 

 

I'll teach other drifters along the way

[Marblehead]

... so i must ask you this:

 

Is my life worth flying in a jetpack to you?

Would you allow me to die, if it were to allow you to become radiation-proof?

Would you rather see the internet grow and humanistic tribes, villages, and towns shrink?

Is it better to have a "free trade" to enhance technology, at the expense of human physical and psychological health and well being?

 

What selfishness is this?

Why all the silly questions?

 

I don't need your jetpack.

 

I don't need to become radiation-proff.

 

Define "humanistic" for me.

 

What is the matter with free trade?

[Marblehead]

What I suggest?

 

These are the words of Jacques Fresco, not mine.

 

The people who use this word "slave" are afraid of nature. They feel they are not part of it, fighting against it and they don't want to become a "slave" to nature. They already are! The way to freedom is indeed to work with nature, but only if enough have accepted that they're enslaving theirselves this way, by fearing some imaginary "enslavement" by nature. They forgot that they are nature. So I use the word "slave" aswell. That is the only way I can reach the minds of those who fear The Venus Project and delay its progress.

 

So you are just puppeting Jacques' words? Do you have any thoughts of your own. I mean, really, of your own?

 

And you just used the word above yourself. Are you afraid of nature?

 

You say you are a slave. Well, that's all fine and good from my perspective. We all have free choice - you chose to be a slave.

 

How many people do you think you are reaching?

[Marblehead]

Sorry, but there are too many flawed values you hold on to. You're completely clueless as to what the current reality of our situation is. Really am sorry, but I can't like be indirect with you. This is completely bullshlt...

 

You are pushing bullshit.

 

I can support with pesonal experiences everything I have said. All you can do is puttet what someone else has said. So lame!

 

And BTW, when the fuck did you become my judge? Who appointed you? What right do you have to judge anyone? None!!! I would suggest that your head is in such a dark place that you can't even judge yourself.

 

Wake the fuck up to reality. People are out there killing each other! Nobody wants to be your slave.

[Marblehead]

 

Its obvious that you have not even considered or patiently payed attention even to the Zeitgeist Documentary. I doubt you even watched it. Anyone who can speak english at your level and with the intellectualy capabilities of you should defenitely understand it.

 

With what you wrote in mind, go watch Zeitgeist Addendum. You'll slap your self in the face. Then go watch Zeitgeist Moving Forward and join me slap other people in the face.

 

Addendum:

 

Don't even waste your confused mind on Zeitgeist Moving Forward, you wont understand a thing. First watch that one.

 

This discussion will go nowhere if you have not even considered my point of view... I have LIVED in your point of view all my life. Most of my life IS your point of view...

Can you just watch Zeitgeist one time? That is all I ask. It is not my lifes purpose to waste your time, believe me... People is not as bad as you think.

 

Maybe I watched it and think it is a bunch of BS?

 

My confused mind? How fucking dare you make such a suggestion? Do you ralize that that was a personal insult?

 

So tell me what "your" point of view is and stop telling me to read something I don't want to read or watch something I don't want to watch.

 

Can't you speak for yourself?

 

When did I ever judge other people? I have stated my personal observations. I don't recall making judgements.

[Informer]

Maybe I watched it and think it is a bunch of BS?

 

My confused mind? How fucking dare you make such a suggestion? Do you ralize that that was a personal insult?

 

So tell me what "your" point of view is and stop telling me to read something I don't want to read or watch something I don't want to watch.

 

Can't you speak for yourself?

 

When did I ever judge other people? I have stated my personal observations. I don't recall making judgements.

 

You sound a bit deffensive bro. I couldn't get the personal insults or judgements from what he said. It sounded more like a compliment to me.

 

Paper currency equivicates to creating debt from thin air. Zietgeist explains it pretty eloquently.

 

Here is another good video I like if you haven't seen it. It is called "Collapse"

 

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/

Edited September 22, 2011 by Informer

[strawdog65]

Its getting a little heated in here.

Thats ok...but I would like to add something.

 

The Ideals and Ideas represented by the Zeigeist movies,

especially the 2nd and 3rd ones, are very honorable and make

sense to me. I know that people will not willingly, for the

most part, do with less or give up their status to help provide

for others in this world. The reality is that something drastic will

probably need to occur before what is proposed by The Venus project,

becomes a viable alternative to what system of greed we now have.

 

I personally encourage everyone to view the 2nd and last film with an

open mind and to consider the possibilities of a new kind of world

society. The first film has a lot of great information about the money

system, but goes pretty far out with the 9/11 conspiracy theories.

 

It's ok to have high Ideals, it's ok to wish for a different way.

But reality must be dealt with in the here and now as well.

If the movies and the Zeitgeist movement opens the minds of enough

people worldwide, maybe that will catalyze a reaction to begin the process.

[Marblehead]

You sound a bit deffensive bro. I couldn't get the personal insults or judgements from what he said. It sounded more like a compliment to me.

 

Paper currency equivicates to creating debt from thin air. Zietgeist explains it pretty eloquently.

 

Here is another good video I like if you haven't seen it. It is called "Collapse"

 

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/

 

Not you too?

 

Just summarize it and tell me what you think.

 

No, I'm not being defensive. I have become offensive.

 

So what would you suggest to replace paper money? How about grains of rice? That way you could eat your money if you got hungry and you wouldn't have to pretend it was something of value for anything other than eating.

 

You didn't think him telling me I have a confused mind wasn't an insult?

 

You didn't see all the judgements he was throwing at me and then accused me of being judgemental?

 

Well, we all see only what we want to see, afterall.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Its getting a little heated in here.

Thats ok...but I would like to add something.

 

Hi Strawdog, Nice post. But I ask you, Won't the nature of the animal have to be changed first before any of this can happen?

 

The nature of man is to be greedy. "Me first." Being greedy brings extra. It satisfies those who are greedy. Why would they want to change?

 

And consider that it are the wealthy and the powerful who are holding most of the wealth of the planet. Do you think that they are gaing to give up what they have?

 

Yes, ideals are great. Reality will bit you on the behind if you don't keep an eye on it though.

[Informer]

Not you too?

 

Just summarize it and tell me what you think.

 

No, I'm not being defensive. I have become offensive.

 

So what would you suggest to replace paper money? How about grains of rice? That way you could eat your money if you got hungry and you would have to pretend it was something of value for anything other than eating.

 

You didn't think him telling me I have a confused mind wasn't an insult?

 

You didn't see all the judgements he was throwing at me and then accused me of being judgemental?

 

Well, we all see only what we want to see, afterall.

 

There are otherwise, what's wrong with trading and batering. Or simply working together to meet our needs? Where does paper money need to exist? Even Silver and gold could replace the paper, or we could even have paper that represents a percentage of gold or silver, or whatever commodity.

 

We trade China 1000000 pounds of corn for 1000000 pounds of rice, where does money need to be? You would have what you produce to trade for what you need. Creating debt out of thin air as it is, is inherently flawed and designed around consumption. It only work in inefficiency, because people have to continue buying things and keep the money moving and being taxed. So there aren't many real incentives to make things that won't have to be bought again. I would have to spend all day typing to get half of the points across, it would be quicker if you watched it and then voiced your concerns about it.

 

Honestly, if we all worked together to get our needs met, we wouldn't be spending 8 hours a day 5 days a week doing some monotonous job. If the entire World worked as and in oness, we wouldn't need it.

 

It is about oness. Humanity, no longer, Asian or Arabs or Greeks or Africans, only humans united for a cause.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Strawdog, Nice post. But I ask you, Won't the nature of the animal have to be changed first before any of this can happen?

 

The nature of man is to be greedy. "Me first." Being greedy brings extra. It satisfies those who are greedy. Why would they want to change?

 

And consider that it are the wealthy and the powerful who are holding most of the wealth of the planet. Do you think that they are gaing to give up what they have?

 

Yes, ideals are great. Reality will bit you on the behind if you don't keep an eye on it though.

Hi Marblehead: Does the evidence suggest that the status quo is functioning on behalf of everyone's best interest? That's the thing, no, the wealthy won't give it up without the threat or use of force.. and, they're not interested in sharing.. so, we can agree to their terms, or offer a reasonable solution, or... as history reminds us, we can force change.. there's no incentive for change from the wealthy, they take what they want or buy enough politicians to create the illusion of legitimacy.. change WILL happen, agreeably or forcibly, i hope that it is agreeable.. but, when the burden on people is too great, they will effect change.. TTC is fairly straightforward on this issue..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Hi Informer,

 

Well, you managed to get four subjects into that for me to respond to.

 

1. I don't what to watch it. If I did I would have already watched it. But I have seen far too many of those idealistic movies and they just don't work in real life.

 

2. Go back to the barter system? It was too cumbersome when there were only 1 billion people on Earth. That is why the idea of money was materialized. Just think how cumbersome it would be with seven times as many people on the planet.

 

And who is going to judge the value of the corn and rice? I think one pound of corn is worth two pounds of rice. If you can't put a common value on something then it is worthless.

 

3. Now, I will agree with you concerning debt. It can suck you into a hole too deep to get out of. Just look at what it has caused here lately.

 

4. Only humans united for a common cause? All humans? Now really. When have you ever seen such a thing in the history of man? We can't even get an agreement on this internet forum.

 

Once again I will state that idealism is wonderful. It sometimes adds purpose to a person's life.

 

I wonder how much attention Bill Gates pays to such talk.

[strawdog65]

Hi Strawdog, Nice post. But I ask you, Won't the nature of the animal have to be changed first before any of this can happen?

 

The nature of man is to be greedy. "Me first." Being greedy brings extra. It satisfies those who are greedy. Why would they want to change?

 

And consider that it are the wealthy and the powerful who are holding most of the wealth of the planet. Do you think that they are gaing to give up what they have?

 

Yes, ideals are great. Reality will bit you on the behind if you don't keep an eye on it though.

 

 

Hya Marbles,

 

I agree with you about the nature of man and greed.

What needs to be understood is the concept of "created scarcity".

The wealthy "create the scarcity" of many goods, to keep prices high

to continue making profits. The system of greed which our world is based on,

is, to me, an unsustainable model of an economy. Change will occur when

the world is pushed to the economic and resource breaking point.

 

For any future society concerned with the "true" well being of this planets

people, greed and manufactured scarcity will have to end. If there was no profit

to be made, then I believe a lot of the greed we see would change into

something more beneficial for everyone. The very system that we live within,

is the disease that ails everyone. Everyone has value, everyone can contribute

in their own way, but the system we are in places more value on some than others,

and this disparity is based purely on the aspect of creating wealth.

 

There is a lot of information in regards to a society and system based on

creating "scarcity' to create wealth, and therefore greed. And greed is the very

root of mankind's inability to share. Greed exists because there is the disparity of

the people who have and those people who have not. Many times the people who lack food and material wealth, do so because they are unable to contribute anything that is "profitable". Because of this whole peoples and countries are doomed to starvation and relying on the welfare of other countries.

 

What the Venus Project is really about is creating a "Resource based Economy".

This is such an interesting subject to me. When I first found out about it a year or so ago, I was blown away by this concept. It is so different then what we have now, it is so obviously more fair and realistic on a worldwide basis that I can see why the rich would not want it to happen. The resources of the entire planet would go to the betterment of everyone.

 

I can only see this coming to fruition after all else fails, unfortunately.

I am realistic....but one day the world will need to address the shrinking of

resources and the well being of the human race and the world, and profits be damned.

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

Hi Marblehead: Does the evidence suggest that the status quo is functioning on behalf of everyone's best interest?

 

Well, of course not. Did I ever say that life was fair to everyone?

 

That's the thing, no, the wealthy won't give it up without the threat or use of force.. and, they're not interested in sharing.. so, we can agree to their terms, or offer a reasonable solution, or... as history reminds us, we can force change.. there's no incentive for change from the wealthy, they take what they want or buy enough politicians to create the illusion of legitimacy..

 

Exactly. That is reality. Don't like it? Too bad. (No, I don't like it either. Ain't that a shame?)

 

change WILL happen, agreeably or forcibly, i hope that it is agreeable.. but, when the burden on people is too great, they will effect change.. TTC is fairly straightforward on this issue..

 

Be well..

 

Oh, yes, change will happen. One system will die and another will take its place and it will be just as corrupt as the one it replaced, or maybe even worse.

 

You cannot change the system of the people unless you change the nature of the people.

 

Oh sure, there are a lot of good-hearted people out there. Too bad they don't have any of the money or any of the power. Now why is that?

 

Yep. We are discussing that very chapter of the TTC at this point in time. Many changes have occurred in China since the days of Lao Tzu. But China still uses money, doesn't it? And there are still the politically powerful, aren't there? What has changed? Only the names.

[Everything]

Hi TzuJanLi,

 

I agree with your position, especially about the military industrial complex being used to combat the causes of war, ie. scarcity, with peaceful and preventative productivity (especially in the area of hemp fuel, imo).

 

What I have heard as an argument against redistributing unreasonable excess though is that if there wasn't oodles of money to be made then people wouldn't invent new things and civilization would not progress.

 

I think it would progress in other more important ways, but money is a better motivator than force which often becomes the motivation when things are distributed more equally regardless of vocations.

 

I personally have faith in humanity, but I also know that there are always greedy power hungry people who manage to take control of everything and screw up what everyone would be capable of working together for the greater good.

 

One option I like, from Paul Goodman, is to have everyone work on farms for 3 years of their life, and then be provided basic food and shelter for the rest of their lives. Anyone that wants to make more money can work and become capitalists and the rest.. however, there will still be the greedy power hungry people that will allow the capitalists to own natural resources and exploit other people..

 

 

I'm still undecided on what should be done.. but I think the military could definitely be put to better purpose on growing energy crops (hemp produces 10 times the amount of fuel than corn) and other self-sustaining operatives.

Science has always been limited by business. Do you think people become a scientist to earn some nice cash and buy nice cars? Haha.

Just look at the movie Avatar. To understand our current situation. The scientist depend on the business man for money. The businessmen, even though good of heart, depends on his competitive strategy to make profit for his company. That is corruption so deeply rooted that we cannot even blame the person who decided to kill all the aliens. And we think that people are bad! Go watch Moving Forward to understand that there IS a definite better way.

 

Technology makes it possible to automate everything. By the end of 2020 it is said that artificial intelligence is to match that of a monkey brain. Do you know how many jobs will be lost and never created? Most of the peoples world do simple jobs that can be replaced by technology. This is a fact. Food will be created very efficiently, at low energy and automated. Just like many other things will become more automated. The things that can become automated will grow eternally. So the jobs will be for people who will apply these technologies and invent them. Only some jobs will remain, like professional jobs and human service sector, like health care. The problem is, with so little money in circulation, companies will go bankrupt and cause even more job losses until the whole world eventually is either at halt or in a third world war. Because mankind is bad? Hell no. The system is corrupt.

 

Lets say there are no jobs. People can live on 0 dollar. Will they sit at home on a toilet seat thinking they could never get a job? No! They will go after their lifes purpose! Not enslaved by labor for food that causes more labor.

At the moment its like this: one guy works to make coca cola, the other works to get rid of the bottles and the other to cure cancer or whatever. Its insanity. People think they're really doing good jobs, while they're not. The money you get for food you get by doing bad things that cause even more problems that require more labor to remove these bad things. The corruption has become self sustaining. When food is free, this world would progress alot better. Mankind is not evil of nature. It is this environment that has corrupted mankind, that is why we must first change the values in our heads, then can we all agree to move on with a better system to replace the useless one.

 

The most important of all is that this technological progression is dangerous if people do not remove all corruption. So time is essential here. When things get out of hand, we'll find ourselves with 70% of the worlds population dead while we had enough resources to have the entire world live in harmony. We shouldn't move that direction.

[Informer]

Hi Informer,

 

Well, you managed to get four subjects into that for me to respond to.

 

1. I don't what to watch it. If I did I would have already watched it. But I have seen far too many of those idealistic movies and they just don't work in real life.

 

Yes, they don't work or even have a chance to work because people don't try, and remain content.

 

2. Go back to the barter system? It was too cumbersome when there were only 1 billion people on Earth. That is why the idea of money was materialized. Just hink how cumbersome it would be with seven times as many people on the planet.

 

This is only a single option, the distances on earth have not increased, only diminished in terms of moving stuff around.

 

And who is going to judge the value of the corn and rice? I think one pound of corn is worth two pounds of rice. If you can't put a common value on something then it is worthless.

 

This is a semantical argument that is besides the point. so then 5 pounds of corn for 1o pounds of rice, it doesn't matter, we decide by supply and demand.

 

3. Now, I will agree with you concerning debt. It can suck you into a hole too deep to get out of. Just look at what it has caused here lately.

 

4. Only humans united for a common cause? All humans? Now really. When have you ever seen such a thing in the history of man? We can't even get an agreement on this internet forum.

We are all united to have a say, that is it. We do have a say and are going to be excersizing it, plain and simple.

 

Once again I will state that idealism is wonderful. It sometimes adds purpose to a person's life.

 

I wonder how much attention Bill Gates pays to such talk.

 

It is our responsibility to over throw a corrupt government. Not our convinience.

 

"From the Declaration of Independence. Not only do you have the right to overthrow your government, it is a responsibility placed on us by a founding fathers. If our government betrays us, acts other then in accordance to our wishes or we feel changes need to be made it is our obligation to do so.

 

Selected quotes by Jefferson about 'rebellion': •"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

•"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787.

•"Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

•"We think experience has proved it safer for the mass of individuals composing the society to reserve to themselves personally the exercise of all rightful powers to which they are competent and to delegate those to which they are not competent to deputies named and removable for unfaithful conduct by themselves immediately." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:487

 

 

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_is_it_okay_to_overthrow_the_government_according_to_Jefferson#ixzz1YjIi5uxQ"

 

No, but we often achieve a mutual respect in agreeing to disagree. No love is lost then it's all good

 

You are entitled to a say just as we all are.

[Marblehead]

Hi Strawdog, You said much. Hehehe. I have to break it all down in order to respond properly.

 

Hya Marbles,

 

I agree with you about the nature of man and greed.

What needs to be understood is the concept of "created scarcity".

The wealthy "create the scarcity" of many goods, to keep prices high

to continue making profits.

 

Great! And I agree with you to this point.

 

The system of greed which our world is based on,

is, to me, an unsustainable model of an economy. Change will occur when

the world is pushed to the economic and resource breaking point.

 

And this is why economies and nations fall into the dust. But what replaces it will likely be no different. The nature of the animal.

 

For any future society concerned with the "true" well being of this planets

people, greed and manufactured scarcity will have to end. If there was no profit

to be made, then I believe a lot of the greed we see would change into

something more beneficial for everyone. The very system that we live within,

is the disease that ails everyone. Everyone has value, everyone can contribute

in their own way, but the system we are in places more value on some than others,

and this disparity is based purely on the aspect of creating wealth.

 

Lao Tzu said about the same thing 2500 years ago. What gives you the encouragement that it is going to happen now? (Don't forget the nature of the animal.)

 

There is a lot of information in regards to a society and system based on

creating "scarcity' to create wealth, and therefore greed. And greed is the very

root of mankind's inability to share. Greed exists because there is the disparity of

the people who have and those people who have not. Many times the people who lack food and material wealth, do so because they are unable to contribute anything that is "profitable". Because of this whole peoples and countries are doomed to starvation and relying on the welfare of other countries.

 

That is a current reality. It has been a reality throughout all recorded history. Greed is what drives those who accumulate an excess. And since they are greedy they have no intention of sharing what they obtained to others. Doesn't matter to them how honestly they came upon their wealth and power.

 

Yes, there are many people who are starving to death every day. Yes, this is very sad. But this too has been happening throughout history. (Don't forget the nature of the animal.)

 

What the Venus Project is really about is creating a "Resource based Economy".

This is such an interesting subject to me. When I first found out about it a year or so ago, I was blown away by this concept. It is so different then what we have now, it is so obviously more fair and realistic on a worldwide basis that I can see why the rich would not want it to happen. The resources of the entire planet would go to the betterment of everyone.

 

But you can't create a resource based economy because the wealthy hold the vast majority of the resources. And even if the people took the resources away from the wealthy and shared them evenly across the board most would be wasted and the few would take advantage of this and the game would start all over again. (Don't forget the nature of the animal.)

 

I can only see this coming to fruition after all else fails, unfortunately.

I am realistic....but one day the world will need to address the shrinking of

resources and the well being of the human race and the world, and profits be damned.

 

I doubt I will ever see that day. (Don't forget the nature of the animal.) Hehehe. Had to say that one more time.

 

Yes, if the human population continues to grow as it has in recent years there are going to be really big problems. Societies will revert to chaos. Every man for himself. People will be eating each other.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Well, of course not. Did I ever say that life was fair to everyone?

 

 

 

Exactly. That is reality. Don't like it? Too bad. (No, I don't like it either. Ain't that a shame?)

 

 

 

Oh, yes, change will happen. One system will die and another will take its place and it will be just as corrupt as the one it replaced, or maybe even worse.

 

You cannot change the system of the people unless you change the nature of the people.

 

Oh sure, there are a lot of good-hearted people out there. Too bad they don't have any of the money or any of the power. Now why is that?

 

Yep. We are discussing that very chapter of the TTC at this point in time. Many changes have occurred in China since the days of Lao Tzu. But China still uses money, doesn't it? And there are still the politically powerful, aren't there? What has changed? Only the names.

I had hoped for a better result, Marblehead.. maybe i take too many vacations from the T'Bums, but.. you seem less... less like Marblehead..

 

I will not neuter myself with the 'so what, it ain't gonna change' attitude.. yeah, i'm okay with the understanding that "I" might not be the 'hundredth monkey, but there will not be a hundredth monkey without 99 others of us.. or, as Edmund Burke, Irish Political Philosopher and Whig, appropriately observes: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".. apathy or resignation, even when disguised as tough-talking indifference, leaves society no better than it was found..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Okay. Jefferson was a very wise person and he made many statements of wisdom so I'm not going to respond directly to that part of your post.

 

Yes, they don't work or even have a chance to work because people don't try, and remain content.

 

Therein lies the root of the problem. The have's like things the way they are. The have not's don't like that but they are unable to do anything about it and that is exactly why they are the have not's. Those who want change for good, idealistic reasons, not selfishness, have little power to do anything. They can't change the have's and they can't inspire the have not's.

 

This is only a single option, the distances on earth have not increased, only diminished in terms of moving stuff around.

 

It would honestly be a real pain to take two of my fish to market to trade for a loaf of bread. It would be so much easier to go to the corner store grab a loaf, pay three dollars for it and go back home. And I would still have my fish!

 

This is a semantical argument that is besides the point. so then 5 pounds of corn for 1o pounds of rice, it doesn't matter, we decide by supply and demand.

 

So who is going to value all these various supplies? Based on local demand? Why give something worth fifty dollars for something you could buy from another community for five dollars plus shipping and handling? Pricing in common prevents the beginning of a new wealth and power struggle.

 

We are all united to have a say, that is it. We do have a say and are going to be excersizing it, plain and simple.

 

That's great! And I speak out whenever I feel it is appropriate. My life, at this point in time, is based in the monetary system and I expect it to be that way for the rest of my life. So I think that my stating that I would not like to see the destruction of it is very understandable.

 

No, but we often achieve a mutual respect in agreeing to disagree. No love is lost then it's all good

 

You are entitled to a say just as we all are.

 

Yes, we can agree to disagree. We all have our opinions and it is extremely rare that one person will have all the same opinions as another person. We all are different animals.

 

But I do get rather upset when, just because I disagree with someone they start getting personal. And being who I am I will kindly return the favor.

 

Everyone who has been here a few weeks should understand that I am a realist and a materialist. Sure, I, on occasion have an idealist thought. But then I remember that I need to clean one of the pond filters and I lose track of the idealism. Afterall, if idealism were possible the fish would be cleaning their own filters.