The zeitgeist movement - even your parrot can spread the word

[strawdog65]

Hi Strawdog, You said much. Hehehe. I have to break it all down in order to respond properly.

 

 

 

Great! And I agree with you to this point.

 

 

 

And this is why economies and nations fall into the dust. But what replaces it will likely be no different. The nature of the animal.

 

 

 

Lao Tzu said about the same thing 2500 years ago. What gives you the encouragement that it is going to happen now? (Don't forget the nature of the animal.)

 

 

 

That is a current reality. It has been a reality throughout all recorded history. Greed is what drives those who accumulate an excess. And since they are greedy they have no intention of sharing what they obtained to others. Doesn't matter to them how honestly they came upon their wealth and power.

 

Yes, there are many people who are starving to death every day. Yes, this is very sad. But this too has been happening throughout history. (Don't forget the nature of the animal.)

 

 

 

But you can't create a resource based economy because the wealthy hold the vast majority of the resources. And even if the people took the resources away from the wealthy and shared them evenly across the board most would be wasted and the few would take advantage of this and the game would start all over again. (Don't forget the nature of the animal.)

 

 

 

I doubt I will ever see that day. (Don't forget the nature of the animal.) Hehehe. Had to say that one more time.

 

Yes, if the human population continues to grow as it has in recent years there are going to be really big problems. Societies will revert to chaos. Every man for himself. People will be eating each other.

 

 

 

Hya Marbles,

 

Nice to get into a decent conversation with you...I appreciate your views.

 

The pessimistic side of me totally agrees with you and the nature of the animal

called man.

But I am torn by my optimistic side which tells me that the good can prevail when the choices become limited to the point where the wrong choice means the end of our race

on this planet.

Resources are not infinite. Power to control them is doubtfully infinite as well.

The rich control the resources through the workings of all the people who work for the rich. What if money meant nothing? There would be no way to leverage people to do your bidding. This is what will be required to effect change. Money will have to become

meaningless. Profit is a crime against humanity.

 

In a resource based economy the goal would be to elevate all people to a place of being

the have's, spreading the worlds wealth to all people. Educating all people. Letting all people contribute to the whole, with no one being considered "less than" someone else.

 

The question is how do we get there from here?

 

A Question: If food, shelter, education, and a life of contributing to a world society

were available to everyone as a birthright, and were not things to be "bought and purchased", why would profit and greed be necessary? When the true necessities of living are available to everyone, the world will know a more peaceful existence.

 

The "rat race" we live inside of everyday is manufactured and created to be this way.

Know that this is the truth, also know that it can be changed when enough minds have

seen that there is a better way. I hope for that day to become real.

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

I had hoped for a better result, Marblehead.. maybe i take too many vacations from the T'Bums, but.. you seem less... less like Marblehead..

 

I will not neuter myself with the 'so what, it ain't gonna change' attitude.. yeah, i'm okay with the understanding that "I" might not be the 'hundredth monkey, but there will not be a hundredth monkey without 99 others of us.. or, as Edmund Burke, Irish Political Philosopher and Whig, appropriately observes: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".. apathy or resignation, even when disguised as tough-talking indifference, leaves society no better than it was found..

 

Be well..

 

Ah! Expectations. Hehehe. I am being expressively pessimistic in this thread because of the subject matter.

 

I don't care much for idealism. It causes way too many disappointments.

 

I like the monetary system. I will always argue for it.

 

Well, looking at conditions of the day I would say that a lot of good men have been sitting on their ass enjoying the food stamps they are getting from a government that is so far in debt it is likely it will never recover.

 

So let's boycott the oil industry. Nobody drives their car or truck. Everyone walks or rides their bicycle to work. Oh! Shit! We can't go to work because the company we work for is owned by Shell Oil Company.

 

And let's not buy insurance for our car that we are no longer going to drive. And let's stop making our mortgage payments because we deserve to have a place to live without having to pay for it.

 

And we can raise cattle and chickens in our back yard so we don't have to buy any of big industry's food products.

 

I think I have said enough.

[Everything]

Maybe I watched it and think it is a bunch of BS?

 

My confused mind? How fucking dare you make such a suggestion? Do you ralize that that was a personal insult?

 

So tell me what "your" point of view is and stop telling me to read something I don't want to read or watch something I don't want to watch.

 

Can't you speak for yourself?

 

When did I ever judge other people? I have stated my personal observations. I don't recall making judgements.

I'm sorry. I'm truely sorry, this mistake has left a mark on my being.

 

"Beneath Deepest of oceans

Black as black can be

 

Without air to breath

and no treasure in sight

 

empty in both hands

What can I do but have regret on my mind?

So the prayers for mercy shall sound"

 

I didn't mean to be that way.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Everything

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

 

I think I have said enough.

No apologies necessary.. rationalizing in an irrational world, is a bit like solipsism.. you have a captive audience..

 

Be well..

[strawdog65]

For anyone interested in the man behind The Venus Project,

here is a wikipedia link about Jacque Fresco:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco#Resource-based_economy

 

 

He's a cantankerous, interesting fellow.

[Marblehead]

Yes, it is nice talking with you. Sad that I have to be the ass in this discussion. Everyone else is being so nice and idealistic. Hehehe.

 

The pessimistic side of me totally agrees with you and the nature of the animal

called man.

But I am torn by my optimistic side which tells me that the good can prevail when the choices become limited to the point where the wrong choice means the end of our race

on this planet.

 

Okay. So I really am an optimist. But I am also a realist. Yes, good can prevail. Perhaps it will happen when there is no other choice left. This has actually happened before on a small scale. It could happen on a world-wide basis.

 

Resources are not infinite. Power to control them is doubtfully infinite as well.

The rich control the resources through the workings of all the people who work for the rich. What if money meant nothing? There would be no way to leverage people to do your bidding. This is what will be required to effect change. Money will have to become meaningless. Profit is a crime against humanity.

 

But if the people don't work they can't buy food and they would starve. Sure, it would hurt the wealthy but what good would that do when you are dead?

 

So I go to work for eight hours and I am offered a bag of peanuts for my services? I don't think so. Unions are a good concept. Too bad there are so many crooks in the leadership of these organizations. The government and the wealthy don't want the people to have unions. The crooks in the leadership roles of unions have helped government and the wealthy to destroy the unions.

 

In a resource based economy the goal would be to elevate all people to a place of being the have's, spreading the worlds wealth to all people. Educating all people. Letting all people contribute to the whole, with no one being considered "less than" someone else.

 

The question is how do we get there from here?

 

Great idea! I'm really serious. I don't know how to get there. It has been tried many times and each time it has failed.

 

The problem is that organizations need leadership. If the leadership is sloppy the organization will fail. If the leadership is efficient it leads to the leadership wanting more than others because they are so good.

 

And then you have those who will sit on their butt doing nothing but yet expect the same benefits as those who have worked very hard and efficiently.

 

A Question: If food, shelter, education, and a life of contributing to a world society

were available to everyone as a birthright, and were not things to be "bought and purchased", why would profit and greed be necessary? When the true necessities of living are available to everyone, the world will know a more peaceful existence.

 

Hey. Totally agree with the last sentence and I have no answer for your question.

 

I read the history books and I have never seen a condition such as this to exist. Is it possible? Perhaps in some small villiage in the Amazon where the total population is less than five hundred. Little to no learedship required because all issues are commonly discussed and decided on. Lao Tzu spoke to his ideal of the peoples living in small villiages and living peacefully together, each doing what their capabilities allow for and those with no abilities we attended to.

 

The "rat race" we live inside of everyday is manufactured and created to be this way.

Know that this is the truth, also know that it can be changed when enough minds have

seen that there is a better way. I hope for that day to become real.

 

No arguement there. However, I don't see much enlightenment going on today. Right now we are mostly playing the blame game. Everybody blaming everyone else and no one taking any responsibility.

 

Nearly all the governments of the industrialized world have over-extended themselves and are totally unable to do al the things they feel they are supposed to be doing. They have spent money they didn't have, they have rewarded the lazy at the expense of the honest, hard-working people, etc, etc, bitch , bitch, bitch.

 

And then in the non-industrialized nations of the world we have the government's military killing people they don't like or who believe in the wrong religion or you have rebels fighting for freedom and they are just as evil as the government they are opposed to.

 

But life will go on as long as the Earth can support it and perhaps one day people will start working together instead of agains one another.

 

Personally, I don't expect to see many changes during the remainder of my lifetime.

[Marblehead]

I'm sorry. I'm truely sorry, this mistake has left a mark on my being.

 

"Beneath Deepest of oceans

Black as black can be

 

Without air to breath

and no treasure in sight

 

empty in both hands

What can I do but have regret on my mind?

So the prayers for mercy shall sound"

 

I didn't mean to be that way.

 

Dear Everything, I accept your sorrow and accept it as a truth.

 

I have on a number of occasions mentioned the hazards of becoming emotionally involved in any of these discussions.

 

Thank you for the very spirited discussion. I really do understand your idealism. I have had many years of personal experiences and those experiences do not point to the idealism you speak of.

 

I am very happy you took the initiative to stop that pissing contest. Thanks!

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

 

No apologies necessary.. rationalizing in an irrational world, is a bit like solipsism.. you have a captive audience..

 

Be well..

 

That last phrase caused me laughter. Yes, I have a captive audience. I really didn't want one. Seems that many wish to challenge me. Oh well.

 

One thing no one can ever accuse me of is confusing my reality with my idealism.

[Marblehead]

For anyone interested in the man behind The Venus Project,

here is a wikipedia link about Jacque Fresco:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco#Resource-based_economy

 

 

He's a cantankerous, interesting fellow.

 

"Purpose-based economy?"

 

Please understand that it is taking an aweful lot of will power to be nice and say nothing.

[strawdog65]

 

 

But if the people don't work they can't buy food and they would starve. Sure, it would hurt the wealthy but what good would that do when you are dead?

 

So I go to work for eight hours and I am offered a bag of peanuts for my services? I don't think so.

 

 

 

 

Hya marbles,

 

I am enjoying this very much thank you.

 

The Resource Based Economy central to an Idea like the Venus Project,

includes the elimination of "buying" anything.

 

Money would be unnecessary.

 

No one would "need" to buy anything.

 

All resources would be truly shared.

 

This concept is alien to us because we are taught to value "greed".

No one alive today, in any money based society, can understand what this concept

really means. It's hard enough for me to wrap my mind around it!

 

Greed is taught.

 

Maybe one day sharing and selflessness will be taught instead.

[strawdog65]

"Purpose-based economy?"

 

Please understand that it is taking an aweful lot of will power to be nice and say nothing.

 

 

Thank you ...you old softy

[Marblehead]

Thank you ...you old softy

 

Hehehe.

[Everything]

Dear Everything, I accept your sorrow and accept it as a truth.

 

I have on a number of occasions mentioned the hazards of becoming emotionally involved in any of these discussions.

 

Thank you for the very spirited discussion. I really do understand your idealism. I have had many years of personal experiences and those experiences do not point to the idealism you speak of.

 

I am very happy you took the initiative to stop that pissing contest. Thanks!

Thanks, that means alot to me.

[Marblehead]

Thanks, that means alot to me.

 

Yeah!!!

 

But we don't need to stop the discussion. Hehehe.

 

Idealism is not a bad thing. In fact, it is oftentimes a good thing. We can make improvements in life when we hold to idealistic thoughts. It is just that we need to keep reality in mind whenever we speak of these ideals and we must be fully open and ready to accept failure when our idealism isn't fulfilled or when others tell us that our ideals are not achievable.

 

Therefore I think it is important that the idealist offer positive reinforcement to his/her ideals in order to cause a better understanding of those ideals and perhaps gain further support for them.

 

But it is also important, I think, that these ideals be presented in a realistic manner, a manner where the ideal can be achieved through small steps in that direction. To just overthrow an existing system will bring only chaos if a new system cannot be immediately implaced.

[strawdog65]

Yeah!!!

 

But we don't need to stop the discussion. Hehehe.

 

Idealism is not a bad thing. In fact, it is oftentimes a good thing. We can make improvements in life when we hold to idealistic thoughts. It is just that we need to keep reality in mind whenever we speak of these ideals and we must be fully open and ready to accept failure when our idealism isn't fulfilled or when others tell us that our ideals are not achievable.

 

Therefore I think it is important that the idealist offer positive reinforcement to his/her ideals in order to cause a better understanding of those ideals and perhaps gain further support for them.

 

But it is also important, I think, that these ideals be presented in a realistic manner, a manner where the ideal can be achieved through small steps in that direction. To just overthrow an existing system will bring only chaos if a new system cannot be immediately implaced.

 

 

Well said Marbles!

I agree with you on this 100%!

I can see your optimistic side peaking out...

 

Just like any goal, what may be out of reach at the moment,

may yet come within our grasp at another time.

And working towards the Ideal is never a bad thing.

 

Whats presented by the Venus Project,to me, is the hope of

a future in which the nature of man (the animal) can be changed

by teaching through example, that sharing and cooperation, are

much more valuable assets then greed, and thinking purely about oneself.

 

There is no such thing as a Utopia. To me, a true Civilization does what's best

for the whole of its people, and by this measure, which is my own...

we barely even come close to having a civilization.

We are more akin to feudal tribes drawing lines in the sand,

making demands which we ourselves would never adhere to,

and leading no one by the deceptions we undertake.

Edited September 23, 2011 by strawdog65

[Marblehead]

First; Thanks!

 

... the hope of a future in which the nature of man (the animal) can be changed

by teaching through example, that sharing and cooperation, are

much more valuable assets then greed, and thinking purely about oneself.

 

Yes indeed. And this is the goal of Taoism. Lao Tzu spoke of the ideals. Chuang Tzu brought us back to reality.

 

There is no such thing as a Utopia. To me, a true Civilization does what's best

for the whole of its people, and by this measure, which is my own...

we barely even come close to having a civilization.

We are more akin to feudal tribes drawing lines in the sand,

making demands which we ourselves would never adhere to,

and leading no one by the deceptions we undertake.

 

You know, here in the US the founding fathers imagined an ideal. They established a pretty good rooting system that would allow for its growth. True, even this wasn't perfect but it wasn't too far off.

 

And then government got involved. Shame!!! Government by the wealthy resulted in the creation of laws that would naturally favor the wealthy. They forgot about the people who made the nation possible - the hard working, self-inspired common American.

 

And it has been going down hill since. The separation between the wealthy and low income people is totally rediculous.

 

And the government, not of the people, has wasted resources to such a state that they should be charged with criminal acts.

 

So what is to be done? Force, through our vote and speaking out, the government to return to the concepts written in the constitution would be the first thing, I would think.

 

So many things could be done, I think, one step at a time. Our current condition did not arise overnight. It took quite a few years. Even if we could just get things back to the way they were in the 1950s things would be so much better than they are now.

[Immortal4life]

Idealism is not a bad thing. In fact, it is oftentimes a good thing. We can make improvements in life when we hold to idealistic thoughts.

 

This is a really good point. So often you hear the word "idealism" thrown around in a negative light, as if it's necessarily a bad thing. It is not. Without it, improvements would never be made.

[thelerner]

I still don't understand how I'd get a car or house in the Z movement. Do I apply to the Technocrat rulers? Fill out forms and wait my turn?

 

Earn it from work? Take it by force if I like someones else's better?

 

If I have a unique service, what happens if I ask for payment; special things in return for it? Would that be against the law? If not, wouldn't it evolve (devolve) into capitalism, albeit an inefficient one due to no money medium?

 

 

????

[Marblehead]

This is a really good point. So often you hear the word "idealism" thrown around in a negative light, as if it's necessarily a bad thing. It is not. Without it, improvements would never be made.

 

Yep. I regret that I had to take the negative side of this topic earlier but I felt we needed to have a level playing field.

 

And I do agree with you. Idealism and imagination: what wonderful functions of the human brain!

[Marblehead]

I still don't understand how I'd get a car or house in the Z movement. Do I apply to the Technocrat rulers? Fill out forms and wait my turn?

 

Earn it from work? Take it by force if I like someones else's better?

 

If I have a unique service, what happens if I ask for payment; special things in return for it? Would that be against the law? If not, wouldn't it evolve (devolve) into capitalism, albeit an inefficient one due to no money medium?

 

????

 

 

Under the pure concept, you get only what is given to you and you get to withhold nothing from Big Brother.

 

Everyone gets the same - doesn't matter if one works his ass off all week long and the other has pretended he was sick and didn't work a lick. You both get the same - which I would suggest would be very little because Big Brother has to be fed, you know.

[strawdog65]

A major issue with any society is the availability of required items to live and

survive. Things like, Food, Shelter, Education, and an ability to contribute

to that society in a manner that benefits the entirety.

 

We are conditioned to believe that compensation for work, equals some

amount of freedom to do as we please. I did not say money because money is just

a form of trade. We as a people can not understand a society in which greed and profit have been replaced by true regard for the betterment of mankind. Our world society is based on greed and profit, the manufacturing of scarcity to keep profits high.

 

The actuality of what the world could be like without greed and profit being the motivating factors, is really beyond us. I can just barely wrap my mind around it as I am writing this. It is a resource based economy. Resources would be the right of everyone to be shared equally as they are needed. Money would be unnecessary. I am not talking about a welfare state of being. Everyone would be expected to contribute to the society, depending on what they are able to contribute, based on their particular abilities and skill set. Education would be the right of every human being. Shelter would be available for everyone. Food would be available to everyone.

 

When you remove the time and effort of people having to provide these things for themselves, through the time wasted working at jobs which mean and do nothing to better society, imagine the Paradigm Change that would take place in the minds of people.

A true civilization has regard for everyone, and everyone would have a place.

 

The idea of a world without profit probably sounds insane.

But, really... of what meaning are profits? What is money used for?

If technology can constantly improve our lives and the benefit is people working and contributing without there needing to be a money system, why would money even matter?

 

This Idea is mind changing if you let it truly sink in and see the benefit of it

in the grand picture of the world. We live in a rat race, but there is another way,

it just takes thinking differently and looking at the world with new eyes.

[Protector]

Finally finished reading ugh should have joined in when the thread started

 

But man, for Zeitgeist to do something as evil as that, I never thought that I would have to go up against something that saved me.

Many nice and irrelevant points discussed in here, though the action after intention is what matter

But it's a taoist forum so props to all who voted for inaction

[strawdog65]

Finally finished reading ugh should have joined in when the thread started

 

But man, for Zeitgeist to do something as evil as that, I never thought that I would have to go up against something that saved me.

Many nice and irrelevant points discussed in here, though the action after intention is what matter

But it's a taoist forum so props to all who voted for inaction

 

 

I believe inaction is akin to silence and agreement.

 

If there is agreement with the present state of our world,

then there is a problem with seeing the futility of any system

that bases it's success on the continuation of greed motivators

over the benefits to all mankind.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Strawdog, I hear what you are saying.

 

And yes, there are still a few tribes in the Amazon region who live like that. But these tribes are very small and self-contained.

 

Lao Tzu spoke to this in Chapter 80 of the TTC. Small villages can live this way.

[strawdog65]

Yeah, Strawdog, I hear what you are saying.

 

And yes, there are still a few tribes in the Amazon region who live like that. But these tribes are very small and self-contained.

 

Lao Tzu spoke to this in Chapter 80 of the TTC. Small villages can live this way.

 

 

Hya marbles,

 

The major reason I am interested in a movement like Zeit/venus project,

is because I want the Human race to survive and leave planet Earth.

 

The chances of Human survival as long as we are confined to this one world,

are diminishing as we destroy and use up everything around us. The survival of the Human race will ultimately have to do with not having all of "our eggs" in one basket.

For this reason, I personally, do not see any system similar to our current way of living being beneficial to this ultimate goal of leaving this planet and expanding Human civilization.

 

I'm sure that the changes necessary to effect such a paradigm shift in mankind's

psyche will have to be dramatically shocking. As we(the world) approach a time when mass starvation will affect every country, not just the poorest and most remote, changes will need to be made. Hard choices are ahead, maybe not your generation or my own....but surely within the next 50 years.

 

The Zeitgeist movement/Venus project are nowhere near being the perfect models of what will become. Nonetheless, they are options and ideas that will be looked at. The main thing is the people of the world need to be woken up to the possibilities of Ideas that are outside of the conventional greed based thinking. And that's what they represent to me.