[TTC Study] Chapter 72 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 72

 

 

John Wu

 

When the people no longer fear your power,

It is a sign that a greater power is coming.

Interfere not lightly with their dwelling,

Nor lay heavy burdens upon their livelihood.

Only when you cease to weary them,

They will cease to be wearied of you.

Therefore, the Sage knows himself,

But makes no show of himself,

Loves himself,

But does not exalt himself.

He prefers what is within to what is without.

 

 

English/Feng

 

When men lack a sense of awe, there will be disaster.

Do not intrude in their homes.

Do not harass them at work.

If you do not interfere, they will not weary of you.

Therefore the sage knows himself but makes no show,

Has self-respect but is not arrogant.

He lets go of that and chooses this.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

When the people don't respect those in power, then what they greatly fear is about to arrive.

Don't narrow the size of the places in which they live;

Don't oppress them in their means of livelihood.

It's simply because you do not oppress them, that they therefore will not be fed up.

Therefore the Sage knows himself but doesn't show himself;

He cherishes himself but doesn't value himself.

For this reason, he rejects that and takes this.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[lienshan]

The Mawangdui B version:

 

民之不畏畏 則大畏將至矣

毌狹其所居

毌猒其所生

夫唯弗猒

是以不猒

是以聖人自知 而不自見也 自愛 而不自貴也

故去罷而取此

 

The people does never treat a fear as a fear (even when a great fear is on the horizon).

It doesn't restrict its sleep.

It doesn't occupy its wake.

Humans exclusively aren't occupied.

Therefore is it not occupying.

Therefore is the private knowledge of a sage (you impersonal seen) a private love (you impersonal valued).

Therefore give up surrender and conquer this.

 

What looks interesting to me are the three negatives preceeding the same character:

 

毌猒 translated 'doesn't occupy'

弗猒 translated 'aren't occupied'

不猒 translated 'isn't occupying'

 

毌 and 亡 became together the modern 無 around 400-300 BC according to professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank, so it's interesting to see the ancient 毌 used in this chapter. It's hard to believe, that the Mawangdui editors replaced 無 with 毌 so it looks like being the original character, changed to 無 in the Received version of the chapter.

Edited September 22, 2011 by lienshan

[XieJia]

Looking at text in Chinese, Let me try give a difference taste to the translation above. But still my English comprehension is not so good.

 

 

People don't fear the powerful, for they see great powerful coming. (Death)

Don't be too familiar with the waiting place. (Don't covet life)

Don't detest the place of birth. (Don't detest what's given to you by birth)

Only when People don't detest, for they wont be detested. (I think this is obvious)

For the Sage knows of oneself but not display it over others. (Display is not quite the word but yeah..similar)

Love oneself but not value himself over others.

Thus is gaining the fruit and rejecting the harm.

Edited September 22, 2011 by XieJia

[lienshan]

猒 occur three times and must thus be considered a key-word of the chapter.

 

........

 

meaning 'to be satiated' / 'to alternate' and it is in Shuo Wen dictionary equal to:

 

........

 

meaning 'to eat to the full' / 'surfeited' / 'satisfied' / 'fully' / 'to the full'

[Marblehead]

Okay. Time for another Derek Lin translation:

 

When people no longer fear force

They bring about greater force

 

Do not limit their place

Do not reject their livelihood

Because the ruler does not reject them

Therefore they do not reject the ruler

 

Therefore the sages:

Know themselves but do not glorify themselves

Respect themselves but do not praise themselves

Thus they discard that and take this

 

 

Actually, I like John Wu's last line to all others:

 

He prefers what is within to what is without.

 

 

Sure, John may have taken liberties with the translation but to me it is more descriptive than other translations.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 72

1. When the people do not fear of the governmental august,

2. Then, the troubles begin.

3. Do not trouble their dwellings.

4. Do not burden their lives.

5. Only when the government was not oppressing the people,

6. Therefore, the people will not be disgusted.

7. Because of a sage:

8. Knowing oneself but not being vainglorious;

9. With self esteem but not appraise oneself.

10. Hence, he dismiss the latter and preferred the former.

 

 

Notes:

1. The latter was referred as "being vainglorious" and "appraised oneself" in lines 8 and 9, respectively.

2. The former was referred as "knowing oneself" and "with self esteem" in lines 8 and 9, respectively.

 

 

第七十二章

1. 民 不 畏 威 ,

2. 則 大 威 至

3. 無 狎 其 所 居 ,

4. 無 厭 其 所 生

5. 夫 唯 不 厭 ,

6. 是 以 不 厭 !

7. 是 以 聖 人:

8. 自 知 不 自 見 .

9. 自 愛 不 自 貴.

10. 故 去 彼 取 此 。

[Marblehead]

Chapter 72

 

Okay. No problem with that.

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

When the people no longer fear your power,

 

Robert Henricks

 

When the people don't respect those in power,

1. When the people do not fear of the governmental august,

'The people' is an abstract collective term.

'Fear' and 'respect' are emotions felt by a single human being.

 

It's therefore not logically but totally nonsense to translate 'The people fear'

[Marblehead]

'The people' is an abstract collective term.

'Fear' and 'respect' are emotions felt by a single human being.

 

It's therefore not logically but totally nonsense to translate 'The people fear'

 

Good point. I disagree with it though. Sorry. Hehehe.

 

Oftentimes it is said that the masses hold a particular emotion, i.e., mass hysteria. There is a collective hysteria. There is a collective fear. There is a collective respect for.

[Jeff]

It appears that we have some big differences in thoughts on this one. The first two sentences are a good example.

 

Wu

 

When the people no longer fear your power, It is a sign that a greater power is coming.

 

Feng

 

When men lack a sense of awe, there will be disaster.

 

Henricks

 

When the people don't respect those in power, then what they greatly fear is about to arrive.

 

Lienshan

 

The people does never treat a fear as a fear (even when a great fear is on the horizon).

 

XieJia

 

People don't fear the powerful, for they see great powerful coming. (Death)

 

Lin

 

When people no longer fear force They bring about greater force

 

ChiDragon

 

When the people do not fear of the governmental august, Then, the troubles begin.

 

and adding... Flowing Hands

 

When men forget the care of all things in their hearts, disaster will follow.

 

Half of the interpretations seems to say "bad things happen, if you don't listen to the government". The other half seem to be about "losing awe" in life and then bad things (or death) happen.

 

I have a tough time buying that the key to existence is to respect your government. Different originals? Thoughts?

 

Have a good weekend.

 

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 72

1. When the people do not fear of the governmental august,

2. Then, the troubles begin.

3. Do not trouble their dwellings.

4. Do not burden their lives.

5. Only when the government was not oppressing the people,

6. Therefore, the people will not be disgusted.

7. Because of a sage:

8. Knowing oneself but not being vainglorious;

9. With self esteem but not appraise oneself.

10. Hence, he dismiss the latter and preferred the former.

 

Summary

The government has certain authorities to carry out its responsibilities and obligations. As long the people are not oppressed, the government by not troubling their home or interrupt their lives, then the people will respect the government. However, if the people has no fear of the government, then the government is loosing its authority and respect. Thus the trouble may begin when people are uprising to go against the government.

 

A good ruler will know his own ego by not abusing his authority and power. With his self esteem, he is putting himself behind but not before the people as described in other chapters.

[Marblehead]

 

I have a tough time buying that the key to existence is to respect your government. Different originals? Thoughts?

 

Have a good weekend.

 

 

Well, that caused me a laugh. Here in the US it is pretty hard to respect the government right now. Two classes of seventh graders could likely do a much better job.

 

But yeah, when the people fear the government I think the government should be fearing the people (revolution).

[XieJia]

@jeff

this is interesting for me aswell; some of us tried to translate word by word from the Chinese text.

From my point of view, I think it impiles that when people lack respect or fear of something, that act itself invite what they will utimately fear.

For example when I lack fear of diabetes or other diseases, I ignore the care of my body and thus invite disasters to it.

I think the first four lines used the same kind of logic.

 

If people covet life, they also invite in where they will have to depart from it.

If people detest what's given by birth, then they will never be satisfied anywhere they go.

Therefore the way of not being detested is by not detesting.

 

The sages knows oneself but does not parade; for parading invites competitions.

love oneself but does not esteem self over others; for this invites people to do the same, the formed can be overturn by the formless cannot.

The sage let go of the manifest and take the formless.

 

This is the only way for me to see the logic of this verse as coherent.

But so this is just my understanding.

[XieJia]

apologies, double posts.

Edited September 24, 2011 by XieJia

[Jeff]

XieJia,

 

My "feeling" of the meaning is very similar, but I do not have the knowledge and skill to translate from the original. All tranlations (and interpretations of the meaning) are based in the context and understanding of the individual. Part of the beauty of the TTC is that the words seem to be written for consumption at multiple levels. Maybe both are correct depending on the perspective (at that time) of the reader.

 

For fun... I have one difference from your interpretation... The beginning is not about losing "fear" and having bad things happen. It is about losing our childlike "wonder" and "awe" , our "trust" in Tao/existence. It flows from the previous sections of how too much knowledge confuses things.

 

I would be interested in your (and others) thoughts. I also hear you serve very good tea.

 

Have a good weekend.

 

[lienshan]

... but I do not have the knowledge and skill to translate from the original. All tranlations (and interpretations of the meaning) are based in the context and understanding of the individual.

There are two versions of the first line: The Received 8 characters and the Mawangdui 11 characters.

 

Both are probably interpretations of the meaning and understanding of the individual: the ancient editors!

[Jeff]

There are two versions of the first line: The Received 8 characters and the Mawangdui 11 characters.

 

Both are probably interpretations of the meaning and understanding of the individual: the ancient editors!

 

Thanks. Interpretations on interpretations of interpretations... Just nobody tell me that it was dependently originated...

 

[Marblehead]

Thanks. Interpretations on interpretations of interpretations... Just nobody tell me that it was dependently originated...

 

 

I choked laughing because I was inhaling some smoke when I read that!!!

[dawei]

I don't see all the "bad" happenings. It's not consistent with LZ thought.

 

Instead, I see the opening more like:

When the People are completely unafraid this is the standard [for handling] when great distress comes.

 

The problem is that most translators take 則 (Ze) as a conjunction (to contrast with the previous statement); I take it as its other meaning, of a standard.

[Marblehead]

I don't see all the "bad" happenings. It's not consistent with LZ thought.

 

Instead, I see the opening more like:

When the People are completely unafraid this is the standard [for handling] when great distress comes.

 

The problem is that most translators take 則 (Ze) as a conjunction (to contrast with the previous statement); I take it as its other meaning, of a standard.

 

That would be an interesting discussion if a good statement/question were presented and we weren't afraid to go to depths beyond just the words.

[XieJia]

I don't see all the "bad" happenings. It's not consistent with LZ thought.

 

Instead, I see the opening more like:

When the People are completely unafraid this is the standard [for handling] when great distress comes.

 

The problem is that most translators take 則 (Ze) as a conjunction (to contrast with the previous statement); I take it as its other meaning, of a standard.

 

I agree with you here.

I think your point is valid and coherent with what I think is Laozi's.

So putting my English comprehension aside:

You mean being unafraid is the standard of handling great distress?

[dawei]

You mean being unafraid is the standard of handling great distress?

Yes. When one is not afraid of what life will bring, even distress is expected (as part of life's variation).

[XieJia]

Yes. When one is not afraid of what life will bring, even distress is expected (as part of life's variation).

 

Nice!

Dawei, would you mind sharing how you would translate this chapter with us?

Your way of looking at the first line brings out my curiosity.

 

Thanks in advance.

XieJia

[ChiDragon]

I don't see all the "bad" happenings. It's not consistent with LZ thought.

 

Instead, I see the opening more like:

When the People are completely unafraid this is the standard [for handling] when great distress comes.

 

The problem is that most translators take 則 (Ze) as a conjunction (to contrast with the previous statement); I take it as its other meaning, of a standard.

 

則(Ze) in the Chinese sentence structure is equivalent to the "If.....then" statement in English.

[dawei]