[TTC Study] Chapter 72 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

則(Ze) in the Chinese sentence structure is equivalent to the "If.....then" statement in English.

The Mawangdui B version

 

If the people lacks respect being respect, then a great respect will indeed occur.

It will not restrict its sleep.

It will not occupy its wake.

There will be nothing occupied.

Therefore is it not occupying.

Therefore is the sage's private knowledge (you impersonal seen) a private love (you impersonal valued).

Therefore give up surrender and conquer this.

 

 

'respect being respect' refers to a Confucius quote 'king being king, minister being minister, etc. etc.'

If the people lacks the confucian way of respect, then it will get Laozi's great respect.

Edited September 26, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

I now see why our openings vary so much. The first two lines have been altered again and again:

 

 

MWD-B: Has reduplication of 畏畏

民之不畏畏

則大畏將至矣

 

FY: Removes 之 and 將; Replaces 畏 with 威 in both lines

民--不畏威，

則大威--至矣

 

HG: Drops 矣

民不畏威，

則大威至--

 

 

WB: Simply follows HG

民不畏威

則大威至

 

I follow 畏畏 as a classic reduplication (same as I commented in chapter 71); Intrepid to mean "resolute fearlessness". The reduplication puts strong emphasis on the singular use of 畏 (fear).

 

Starting with FuYi, the opening gets changed to 'not fearing power' or 'not fearing what is dreadful"... and the entire chapter changes meaning.

[GOOWDAY]

Chapter 72

 

民之不畏畏 ,

则大畏将至矣.

毋,闸其所居 ;

毋,猒其所生 .

夫唯弗猒 ,

是以不厌 .

 

是以圣人自知而不自见也,

自爱而不自贵也 ,

故去彼取此 .

 

闸: close down 猒: tire

 

 

 

People they didn't fear the fear,

Then the big fear will come.

Don't, Close down where they liveing in,

Don't, Get tired of what they liveing for.

Only because they didn't get tired ,

So they don't tire .

 

Therefore the sage knows himself but won't be self-seeing.

He loves himself but won't be arrogance.

So get rid of that and takes this.

[XieJia]

Chapter 72

 

I like your translation Goowday.

 

Do you know that MH really likes people putting 'Chapter' on top of their translation?

[Marblehead]

I like your translation Goowday.

 

Do you know that MH really likes people putting 'Chapter' on top of their translation?

 

Hehehe. We gotta' know what we are talking about before we can talk about it.

 

That's one of the reasons I can't talk about enlightnement. I don't know what I am talking about.

[GOOWDAY]

Hi xiejia ,Hi marblehead.

 

Marblehead have a very good understanding of Tao and TTC,This shouldn't be the problem to him.

I did this just for reminding me which chapter I was already done the translation.

[nestentrie]

72
When the people do not apprehend what they ought to be apprehensive about, that which is their great dread will come on them.
Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on.
It is by adopting natural belief, belief not predicated on when others will accept what we can do, but where they will. Belief that includes the 'us', and not belief that feigns the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from the indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it.
Therefore the Kind, in the maintenance of inclusive belief have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Righteousness; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put the latter alternative away and make choice of the former.
--
72

When the people do not apprehend what they ought to be apprehensive about, that which is their great dread will come on them.
Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on.
It is by adopting natural knowledge, knowledge not predicated on when others should agree with what we do, but where they should. Knowledge that includes the 'us', and not knowledge that suits the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from the indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it.
Therefore the Merciful, in the overcoming of disputatious knowledge have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Benevolence; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put the latter alternative away and make choice of the former.
--
72
When the people do not apprehend what they ought to apprehensive about, that which is their great dread will come on them.
Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on.
It is by adopting natural agreement, agreement not predicated on when others know what should be our inclination, but where that knowledge applies. Agreement that includes the 'us', and not agreement that flatters the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it.
Therefore the Trusting, in the avoiding of controversy and abiding in what is true have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Propriety; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put away the latter alternative and make chioce of the former.
--
72
When the people do not apprehend what they ought to be apprehesive about, that which is their great dread will come on them.
Let them not thoughtlessly indulge themselves in their intellectual life; let them not act as if weary of their nature that their life depends on.
It is by adopting natural acceptance, acceptance not predicated on when others can believe what we will do, but where they can. Acceptance that includes 'us', and not acceptance that panders the merely 'this'. This is how we free ourselves from indulgence in the intellectual and be rid of the weariness that comes with it.
Therefore the Honest, in the development of what is readily acceptable have this understanding of themselves, but do not parade their Wisdom; love, but do not appear to set a value on their own lot. Thus, they put the latter alternative away and make choice of the former.
--

^This has been edited.

Edited August 16, 2014 by nestentrie

[Marblehead]

Hi Nestentrie,

 

Nice. Are those your translations or interpretations?

[nestentrie]

Just interpretations...

 

Verse 38 really gets me thinking

[Marblehead]

Just interpretations...

 

Verse 38 really gets me thinking

The last line of 38 is the butt kicker. The Great Man is discriminating. (S)he does have preferences and will choose one over the other. I argue this over and over again but few listen. "New Age" stuff wants everything to be the same - I am you and you are me. BS!

[nestentrie]

The last line of 38 is the butt kicker. The Great Man is discriminating. (S)he does have preferences and will choose one over the other. I argue this over and over again but few listen. "New Age" stuff wants everything to be the same - I am you and you are me. BS!

 

Yeah, it's circular logic where an arse pretends its sphincter is the mouth of the person and that it could somehow have an effect on what the person comsumes (and therefore passes). I could of course exericise oversight with that comment and retract it for the common good of good taste, but I feel the same frustrataion, believe me.

 

I too wanna understand things, like the next new ager, but I'd like to understand it as i'm capable of understanding it, not just some hippy omm like mantra. I like you believe (for my part) that there are differences between people.

Edited August 3, 2014 by nestentrie

[nestentrie]

And oh, the smelling of one's own farts may be swift in it's apprehension: 'oh yeah, i had a good meal yesterday, i remember the experience well', but it is in the dwelling of hunger that the fruit can be found. And well all know real fruit is better than consuming one's own shit.

 

(Why did I need to be so crass? Dunno dude, when you're on a roll....)

 

EDIT: Vote with your clickers... If this post gets a like I will immediately delete it!

Edited August 3, 2014 by nestentrie

[Marblehead]

Well, yeah, you did get down in the gutter there, didn't you? No, I'm not going to "Like" it. Hehehe.

[3bob]

The last line of 38 is the butt kicker. The Great Man is discriminating. (S)he does have preferences and will choose one over the other. I argue this over and over again but few listen. "New Age" stuff wants everything to be the same - I am you and you are me. BS!

 

What one true sage finds within is the same as that that another true sage finds within which is why both know, prefer and are effectively and ultimately (at that level) the -same- within... (or along the lines of the unchanging singularity of Tao - if one relates better via those words)

 

Thus there is really no "butt kicker" in 38 per-se with the words of: "Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without" which is also directly alluded to in chapter 21 by:

 

"...The Core of Vitality is very real,

It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity.

Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved

In order to recall the Beginning of all things.

How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?

By what is within​ me."

Edited August 3, 2014 by 3bob

[woodcarver]

This chapter is very relevant to americans like myself.

[Marblehead]

What one true sage finds within is the same as that that another true sage finds within which is why both know, prefer and are effectively and ultimately (at that level) the -same- within... (or along the lines of the unchanging singularity of Tao - if one relates better via those words)

 

Thus there is really no "butt kicker" in 38 per-se with the words of: "Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without" which is also directly alluded to in chapter 21 by:

 

"...The Core of Vitality is very real,

It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity.

Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved

In order to recall the Beginning of all things.

How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?

By what is within​ me."

Good sales pitch but I'm not buying it 3bob.

 

Granted it is possible for two individuals to have the same understanding. But they are two individuals, not one. Two people can dance in harmony and grace but they are still two individuals.

 

Even to say "I can feel you." is referring to two individuals - "I" and You".

 

And yes, one who likes Root Beer Instead of Coca Cola has the same likes regarding soda pop as another who likes Root Beer instead of Coca Cola except one of them is Obama and the other is Romney.

 

We make choices. Even the Sage makes choices. Some choices will be similar and others will be different. That is bcause each person is an individual, a manifestation of Tao, special and unique in their own way. No two snow flakes are identical. Same goes for individual humans. Lao Tzu and Buddha were different individuals even though they had much in common. But they also had a lot of differences.

[3bob]

What you are speaking of is the unique soul (or if one prefers mind, heart, and body(s)) and at that level I agree with your drift, my drift was of the source for such and that which a true Sage ultimately identifies with - namely the un-nameable root that they find themselves to be which has no different or conflicting multiples of Itself and which the T.T.C. is very often pointing to...

Edited August 3, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm glad we are misunderstanding each other better now.

 

I have never denied that we are all of the same source - star dust.

 

But some of us collect more dust than do others.

 

Interesting thought: No different or conflicting multiples of myself.

 

No, not different but ever-changing. (That almost sounds like a contradiction.)

 

Conflicting? Oh!, I know that one well. (Most of that has been cured with wine though.)

[3bob]

Buddhism often speaks of change in their doctrines in one way or another along these lines (although they also have a major exception to that in their doctrine), Taoism speaks of the unchanging along these lines in the T.T.C., and if it did not then it would not be Taoism per the T.T.C..

 

Example from chapter 25:

"...Silent and boundless,

Standing alone without change,

Yet pervading all without fail,..."

 

This is what the true Sage realizes and ultimately identifies with via the direct statement of "by what is within me" from Chapter 21.

 

Rocket science and or long interesting arguments about this can't reach It but the Sage and those on the Way in some way or another can.

Edited August 3, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

I feel the need to somehow link this back to Chapter 72.

 

The last line of Chapter 38 reads (Henricks):

 

Therefore he rejects that and takes this.

 

The last line of Chapter 72 reads:

 

For this reason, he rejects that and takes this.

 

 

Why? Because of "by what is within me". Speaking here of intuition - knowing the how and why of what we understand as a truth.

 

"One" is "standing alone without change". But One gave birth to Two. That was change. It was not a change based on rational thought but rather its Tzujan, its natural precess.

 

But the Sage functions based on rational thought; he "rejects that and takes this". (S)he is discriminating based on rational thought. If everything was the same (s)he would reject nothing.

[Stosh]

Agreeing with Mh here, this chapter doesnt preclude one from making descriminations ,

It is essentially giving a rationale for someone to exercise social restraint , since

it is in ones own natural interest not to bring headaches on themselves ,

with things being the way they are ,, and the sage is clear on how things go

(but by no means is it contrary to the welfare of everyone else).

So this social restraint could be considered harmonious natural virtuous,

and for the good of all the people.

What Im not sure of here is precisely what the social restraint is in particular

that is being used as example.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Stosh

[3bob]

MH,

 

It looks like you skipped a step?

 

TTC 42:

"Tao gave birth to One"

 

Thus the "One" only exists through connection or "birth" from the Great Tao

and in that sense the One is not standing alone without change as is the Tao per:

 

"...Silent and boundless,

Standing alone without change,
Yet pervading all without fail,..." T.T.C. 25

 

This is a key point and alludes to a profound fact of non-change, .. For only the Great Tao (with the term "Great" being used by Lao Tzu in Chapter 34 and elsewhere) can know the Great Tao - which does not exclude the true Sage who realizes same and says:

 

"How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning? By what is within​ me." (or the Tao)

 

Further, if a student applies these T.T.C.texts above then it should follow that they see the possibility that the Sage is not limited to just rational functions, methods or thoughts...and by taking that into account the Sage is or can ultimately discriminate based on perception from the point of Tao (so to speak) "that pervades all without fail... which by the way gives the Sage a tremendous first hand insight, advantage, virtue and anchor to deal with the ever changing yet cyclic universe.

 

Anyway, those first two lines of chapter 72 seem open to more than one interpretation, and I don't know any Chinese which doesn't help with same.

Edited August 4, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

I skip only when I don't want to walk properly. And I don't do that too often in my old age.

 

Yes, Tao gave birth to One. This was the beginning of the manifestation of Tao. (Scientifically, Tao gave birth to nitrogen - the first element formed after the Big Bang.)

 

One gave birth to Two (Gravity and helium).

 

But these thing play no direct part in my reality life. We have to get to the Ten Thousand Things before I can talk about human life.

 

The only 'thing' I can comprehend as being non-changing is Tao. This is because Tao is always complete even though it manifests itself in various forms and non-forms (Yu and Wu).

 

I understand "By what is within me." as being my intuition, my gut feelings as well as the energy of Chi. That would be aspects of Tao but not the totality of Tao.

 

 

Actually, I read Chapter 72 as being two separate concepts. Lines 1 - 4 speak about governing the people; Lines 5 - 7 speak of attributes of the Sage.

 

But yes, if the Sage were the ruler of the people he would not do what is spoken to in Lines 1 - 4.

 

 

If we were one with Tao we would be destroying a lot of things and creating new things. I think this would be going beyond our capacities and capabilities as well as placing ourself on the same level with Tao.

[3bob]

Not bad man,

 

I can skip when my gout is in remission, or if singing, "Jeremiah was a bullfrog".

 

Anyway,

"If we were one with Tao we would be destroying a lot of things and creating new things. I think this would be going beyond our capacities and capabilities as well as placing ourself on the same level with Tao". by MH

 

Good point, which is why in the end the ego must die thus killing any "designs" that same might have for itself...and being that by definition the true Sage has no designs of their own. Also there is a law that says, "Only Nothing can enter into no space" ( T.T.C. 43); thus something has to give and it won't be the Tao. Further, Chapter 16 speaks of being one with the Tao in the sense of and the condition that a true Sage has attained - namely not being at odds with the Tao:

 

"...To return to the root is to find peace.
To find peace is to fulfill one's destiny.
To fulfill one's destiny is to be constant.
To know the Constant is called Insight.

If one does not know the Constant,
One runs blindly into disasters.
If one knows the Constant,
One can understand and embrace all.
If one understands and embraces all,
One is capable of doing justice.
To be just is to be kingly;
To be kingly is to be heavenly;
To be heavenly is to be one with the Tao;
To be one with the Tao is to abide forever.
Such a one will be safe and whole
Even after the dissolution of his body."

Edited August 4, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Good point, which is why in the end the ego must die thus killing any "designs" that same might have for itself...and being that by definition the true Sage has no designs of their own. Also there is a law that says, "Only Nothing can enter into no space" ( T.T.C. 43); thus something has to give and it won't be the Tao. Further, Chapter 16 speaks of being one with the Tao in the sense of and the condition that a true Sage has attained - namely not being at odds with the Tao:

Yeah, but you already know that I am not going to destroy my ego. We have talked about that before. I still love my ego.

 

After I die I can be put into no space if that's where someone wants my body to be.

 

And yes, I have designs of my own. Oh well, so much for Sagehood.

 

Now, I do try to live in accord with the nature of the universe. Sometimes I have to bend things and maybe pull up some weeds from my gardens but still ...

 

Yeah, I have found peace. I'm not sure about all those other things though.