The Final Dhyana

[xabir2005]

Wisdom is not just of one person, it is the culmination of wisdom from every being that wishes to share. Share with humanity as one, it is on the internet everywhere. Your personal wisdom will never match the wisdom of humanity as a whole. No one man's wisdom can match that. We have that!

I am not talking about cumulative wisdom but a direct, experiential, prajna wisdom that realizes emptiness.

 

You can have many internet articles talking about emptiness, but wisdom can only be realized directly in one's own mindstream. You can have some understanding through reading books, etc, but that is still inferred understanding (though it is still important for those who have not realized). True realization or prajna wisdom is not something you learn externally but something you realize through your own investigation and contemplative practice.

Edited September 24, 2011 by xabir2005

[Informer]

I am not talking about cumulative wisdom but a direct, experiential, prajna wisdom that realizes emptiness.

 

You can have many internet articles talking about emptiness, but wisdom can only be realized directly in one's own mindstream. You can have some understanding through reading books, etc, but that is still inferred understanding (though it is still important for those who have not realized). True realization or prajna wisdom is not something you learn externally but something you realize through your own investigation and contemplative practice.

 

Emptiness of an ego? There is nothing else relevant to ending all human suffering. Which to experience love in true form is without ego. What else?

[C T]

Emptiness of an ego? There is nothing else relevant to ending all human suffering. Which to experience love in true form is without ego. What else?

How does one begin, and sustain, the experience of love in its true form?

 

What is love in its true form, first of all?

 

Is it fundamentally an experience? Tied to the skandhas? Or not?

 

Either way, what do you think the implications are?

Edited September 24, 2011 by CowTao

[Informer]

It is love without attachement. Without ownership. It is something that deepens with practice and solidarity.

[Informer]

It is not something that is part of you, it is something you are a part of. Something that humanity as one shares. You may find love in an individual sense, then develope into the greater love that we are all a part of.

[Informer]

When the voice of the heart is outweighing the voice of the mind, you are on the right track.

[C T]

It is love without attachement. Without ownership. It is something that deepens with practice and solidarity.

Sure, why not... such are after all lofty ideals which many beings dream of, and many strive to create in their lives since time immemorial.

 

What's the cutting-edge flight-plan?

[Informer]

Sure, why not... such are after all lofty ideals which many beings dream of, and many strive to create in their lives since time immemorial.

 

What's the cutting-edge flight-plan?

 

I don't understand the question.

[C T]

I don't understand the question.

You ascribed a way of life which is fundamentally what 99.9 percent of beings yearn for... a life filled with selfless love, which you assert will bring an end to suffering. Is this correct? You appear to have identified where the goal lies.

 

Yearning, dreaming, fantasizing... its all good, we all tend to indulge from time to time. Mine is to win the Euromillions lottery

 

My question is: IYO, What's the path that leads to the goal? (I know, its not a goal in the conventional sense, but you know what i mean i hope). What does a person have to do in order to bring about this realization you speak of?

[Informer]

You ascribed a way of life which is fundamentally what 99.9 percent of beings yearn for... a life filled with selfless love, which you assert will bring an end to suffering. Is this correct? You appear to have identified where the goal lies.

 

Yearning, dreaming, fantasizing... its all good, we all tend to indulge from time to time. Mine is to win the Euromillions lottery

 

My question is: IYO, What's the path that leads to the goal? (I know, its not a goal in the conventional sense, but you know what i mean i hope). What does a person have to do in order to bring about this realization you speak of?

Love is the only thing you will find that is purely objective. Call it a dream or whatever, that is your right. Once you find it, it will cease to be a dream or fantasy. If you think you are truly without an ego then I think it is as simple as:

 

You just find love and cultivate it. Find something you love and feel it. Then feel it for something else, and eventually for everything. Forgo having an individual perspective, but take on a perspective of all humanity. Be one.

 

I am sure you have heard of mettā, as a self-proclaimed buddhist and all, seriously you should know this by now.

[Informer]

Where has it ever been said that ending your suffering is the objective?

[C T]

Love is the only thing you will find that is purely objective. Call it a dream or whatever, that is your right. Once you find it, it will cease to be a dream or fantasy. If you think you are truly without an ego then I think it is as simple as:

 

You just find love and cultivate it. Find something you love and feel it. Then feel it for something else, and eventually for everything. Forgo having an individual perspective, but take on a perspective of all humanity. Be one.

 

I am sure you have heard of mettā, as a self-proclaimed buddhist and all, seriously you should know this by now.

What i know is not relevant.

 

I am interested in what you know, otherwise i would not waste your time with the queries. You might have thought i was trying to be smart, but i was not. I am sincerely wanting to know what you think is the way to achieve a stable, unmovable realization of that which you proclaim is the prime antidote to the world's miseries.

 

Its easy to say metta, but how does one set up one's life so that metta can be cultivated and practiced?

 

The reason i am interested is because to many people, metta is merely lip service.

 

I am interested to know, in your view, how does one overcome the major obstacles so that metta can take root and flourish in people's lives?

Edited September 24, 2011 by CowTao

[Informer]

Simple, teach metta in schools, so the children know of it's inherent existence. I would teach it as the sixth sense, as that is what I equate it to.

 

It would be around 8th grade or so, once the center has had time to develope, as it developes durring puberty, from what I can determine.

 

If you know of anyone that has actually felt love before puberty, then my thesis may be incorrect.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Informer

[Lucky7Strikes]

Love in itself cannot bring an end to suffering. Wisdom and insight will.

There is no separation between the two.

 

Love, wisdom, compassion, insight, awareness, mind, heart, emptiness, anatta, I Am, all are varying ways of describing one color of experience of awakening. These terms are only meaningful if your path is analytical, like forming an ocean in your mind through descriptions when you haven't yet encountered it. You learn that it is blue, then that it is vast, then that it has this tendency to have waves, and foams, that it is wet, on and on.

 

The terms are applicable also because people have different ways of cultivating. To someone who takes love and surrender as the path, they can fearlessly open themselves to reality to reveal itself. To someone who is more prone to the language of wisdom focuses on clarity and observation.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[C T]

Nothing has to be taking on faith, this is not the way of a seeker atleast.

Bodhipaksa says, "Faith is not a belief in things that have no evidence, but confidence in our ability to move in the direction of greater freedom and happiness."

 

Dr. Martin L King Jr. ~ "Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase... just take the first step."

[Informer]

Bodhipaksa says, "Faith is not a belief in things that have no evidence, but confidence in our ability to move in the direction of greater freedom and happiness."

 

Dr. Martin L King Jr. ~ "Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase... just take the first step."

 

 

That's hope, not faith.

[Informer]

Faith is believing something is true, without knowing it to be true.

 

Like Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy, must be taken on faith.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Informer

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Attaining Nirvana is not so easy.

 

You need deep realization and practice to overcome afflictions. In fact only an 8th bhumi Bodhisattva is truly above the samsaric tides.

 

By the way, in life it's all easy. At death, the pain and suffering is like a hundred times worse, so don't think its as easy as it seems.

 

I never said anything about it being easy.. or really even trying to say that this is an answer. Just wanted to hear people's thoughts about this idea, which is what you added, so I'm glad someone FINALLY chimed in with their perspective on it..lol.

 

Also, obviously it's not the same every time, but I think a lot of people die in peace who have not spent their whole lives dedicated to specific spiritual practices, and personally, I think this has to do a lot with being able to accept it.

 

 

Anyhoo, here is a quote from The Sutra of Hui Neng which also makes me consider that the idea in the original post might be worthy of discussion:

 

"At another assembly the Patriarch spoke as follows: What is dhyana? It means, first, to gain full freedom of mind and to be entirely unperturbed under all outward circumstances, be they good or otherwise. What is the difference between Dhyana and Samadhi? Dhyana is the effort to be mentally free from any attachment to outer objects. Samadhi is the realisation of that freedom in inward peace. If we are attached to outer objects the inner mind will be perturbed. When we are free from attachment to all outer objects, the mind will be at peace. Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure; the reason we become perturbed is simply because we allow ourselves to be carried away by the circumstances we are under. He who is able to keep his mind serene, irrespective of circumstances, has attained true Samadhi.

 

To be free from attachment is Dhyana; to realise inner peace is Samadhi. When we are able to hold the mind concentrated, and to rest in inner peace, then we have attained both Dhyana and Samadhi. The Bodhisattva Sila Sutra says: "Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure." Learned Audience: let us each realise this for himself from one momentary sensation to another. Let us practice it by ourselves, let us train ourselves, and thus by our own effort attain Buddhahood."

[stan herman]

I never said anything about it being easy.. or really even trying to say that this is an answer. Just wanted to hear people's thoughts about this idea, which is what you added, so I'm glad someone FINALLY chimed in with their perspective on it..lol.

 

Also, obviously it's not the same every time, but I think a lot of people die in peace who have not spent their whole lives dedicated to specific spiritual practices, and personally, I think this has to do a lot with being able to accept it.

 

 

Anyhoo, here is a quote from The Sutra of Hui Neng which also makes me consider that the idea in the original post might be worthy of discussion:

 

"At another assembly the Patriarch spoke as follows: What is dhyana? It means, first, to gain full freedom of mind and to be entirely unperturbed under all outward circumstances, be they good or otherwise. What is the difference between Dhyana and Samadhi? Dhyana is the effort to be mentally free from any attachment to outer objects. Samadhi is the realisation of that freedom in inward peace. If we are attached to outer objects the inner mind will be perturbed. When we are free from attachment to all outer objects, the mind will be at peace. Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure; the reason we become perturbed is simply because we allow ourselves to be carried away by the circumstances we are under. He who is able to keep his mind serene, irrespective of circumstances, has attained true Samadhi.

 

To be free from attachment is Dhyana; to realise inner peace is Samadhi. When we are able to hold the mind concentrated, and to rest in inner peace, then we have attained both Dhyana and Samadhi. The Bodhisattva Sila Sutra says: "Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure." Learned Audience: let us each realise this for himself from one momentary sensation to another. Let us practice it by ourselves, let us train ourselves, and thus by our own effort attain Buddhahood."

 

These are all preachments and they are useful--to a point. However, as the Buddha says in the Diamond sutra, they are all 'ways of speaking', not the unvarying facts--merely attempts to communicate distinctions in rough approximations.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

These are all preachments and they are useful--to a point. However, as the Buddha says in the Diamond sutra, they are all 'ways of speaking', not the unvarying facts--merely attempts to communicate distinctions in rough approximations.

 

sure, they're just reflections in the water so to speak, but until we're able to look up and see the moon, it's helpful to have some idea what we're looking for and where to find it..

[stan herman]

sure, they're just reflections in the water so to speak, but until we're able to look up and see the moon, it's helpful to have some idea what we're looking for and where to find it..

 

It's helpful only if it's simple and brief. When it becomes complex and elaborate it obscures--the water muddy and turbulent. People become more involved in explanations than experience. Practicing toward a clear mind is better.

 

For example: "What is the difference between Dhyana and Samadhi? Dhyana is the effort to be mentally free from any attachment to outer objects. Samadhi is the realisation of that freedom in inward peace. If we are attached to outer objects the inner mind will be perturbed." What is the usefulness of such a distinction? One could then readily distinguish between types of Samadhi, variations in the efforts of Dhyana. . . And the more distinctions occupying the mind, the further the drift away from experience.

Edited September 29, 2011 by stan herman

[Harmonious Emptiness]

One could then readily distinguish between types of Samadhi, variations in the efforts of Dhyana. . . And the more distinctions occupying the mind, the further the drift away from experience.

 

I suppose they could, but in this case: they didn't.. That's what I really like about Hui Neng and Ch'an, is that they don't go on and on. Nonetheless, even the Ch'an masters studied sutras like The Surangama Sutra which clears away various confusions with logic and explanation. Though, in the Surangama Sutra does say that endless philosophy traps people in a relative reality rather than actual reality.

 

Once you get to the shore you leave the boat behind. In the meantime, I enjoy the boat and the ride. Sometimes I forget about the boat even though I'm not at the shore, but I still want to get there eventually.

 

Seriously, this is like catching minnows compared to the amount of compartmentalization that goes on in Buddhism. You might want to bring this up in some of those threads; though I appreciate the response anyways, and I don't disagree with you..

[stan herman]

I suppose they could, but in this case: they didn't.. That's what I really like about Hui Neng and Ch'an, is that they don't go on and on. Nonetheless, even the Ch'an masters studied sutras like The Surangama Sutra which clears away various confusions with logic and explanation. Though, in the Surangama Sutra does say that endless philosophy traps people in a relative reality rather than actual reality.

 

Once you get to the shore you leave the boat behind. In the meantime, I enjoy the boat and the ride. Sometimes I forget about the boat even though I'm not at the shore, but I still want to get there eventually.

 

Seriously, this is like catching minnows compared to the amount of compartmentalization that goes on in Buddhism. You might want to bring this up in some of those threads; though I appreciate the response anyways, and I don't disagree with you..

 

Nicely said and right on. Yes indeed, enjoy the ride!

[shine]

Best to become intellectualy proficient by study, then to put this knowledge into practice and experience directly all we can before death. Everything that I have read and been told, suggests that unless you realize the Tao now, when will you ever get another chance as a human, let alone to hear or learn the Dharma.

 

Fear of the unknown could be a great motivator, but in the end, it must be shed also.