[TTC Study] Chapter 73 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[XieJia]

I think 73 flows in smoothly after 72.

To me there seem to be yin and yang to the type of qualities.

If one use it for nurturing the self and other to establish something outside.

And the Outside qualities is not enduring.

[Marblehead]

I think 73 flows in smoothly after 72.

To me there seem to be yin and yang to the type of qualities.

If one use it for nurturing the self and other to establish something outside.

And the Outside qualities is not enduring.

 

Yep. And I think that there should be a pause, or line break, between lines 3 and 4.

 

Our thought patterns work this way too - one thought leads to another - a natural flow.

[XieJia]

 

 

I still can't strive far from the other translators on this one; any and all mistake is my own.

The courage to die is much like the way to be vanquished.

The courage to not die is much like the way to survive.

This two like pairs; one beneficial, one harmful.

In the place of Heaven that punishes, who knows the cause?

(I think this line can be amend, there's deeper stuff in this line.)

This is why the sages furthermore ponders. (Sage weighs the things out whether it is with the Dao, this is not in MWD*)

The way of Heaven;

does not contend so it surely overcomes,

does not discuss so it surely commands,

does not decrees so it surely goes itself accordingly,

comes as one like good plan. (I used MWD text A and B )

Heaven's net big vast (This sounds good in my mother tongue ), lax but not neglect.

Edited September 25, 2011 by XieJia

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 73

1. One who was brave and courageous then killed.

2. One who is brave but not courageous then survived.

3. These two types of bravery one benefits and the other does harm.

4. This was detested by the Principles of Heaven,

5. And who knows why?

6. The natural principles are:

7. Without striving is a better way to prevail;

8. Not speaking is a better way to answer;

9. Not being summoned but come at one's own free will;

10. Tolerance is a good deed for planning matters.

11. The net of heaven is vast and wide.

12. Its mesh is sparse but yet nothing slips through.

 

第七十三章

1. 勇 於 敢 則 殺 ,

2. 勇 於 不 敢 則 活 :

3. 此 兩 者 或 利 , 或 害 。

4. 天 之 所 惡

5. 孰 知 其 故 ?

 

[是 以 聖 人 猶 難 之 。]<--- Out of context.

 

6. 天 之 道:

7. 不 爭 而 善 勝;

8. 不 言 而 善 應;

9. 不 召 而 自 來;

10. 繟 然 而 善 謀 。

11. 天 網 恢 恢 ;

12. 疏 而 不 失 !

[Marblehead]

(I think this line can be amend, there's deeper stuff in this line.)

 

Yes, there is some really deep stuff behind those words. I have thought about it a number of times but have always given up without establishing any understanding.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 73

 

Hey! I actually like that! How about that?!

[dawei]

Yes, there is some really deep stuff behind those words. I have thought about it a number of times but have always given up without establishing any understanding.

I think the problem is that most translate the line from Heaven's point of view; As if it is Heaven which has some favoritism or detests something. That is not a LZ theme.

 

If we turn the point of view around, it is people who reject the Way of Heaven or who disgrace the principles of Heaven.

 

What principles?

 

The opening two lines has the LZ theme of 'the strong die and the weak endure'. I see it going like this (interpretation):

 

The strong [headed or willed] will find death prematurely through their own devices.

The weak will naturally find [a longer] life.

Of these two ways one results in harm and one results in benefit.

Thus, some forsake the principles of Heaven; who is able to know their reasons?

[lienshan]

則(Ze) in the Chinese sentence structure is equivalent to the "If.....then" statement in English.

1. 勇 於 敢 則 殺 ,

2. 勇 於 不 敢 則 活 :

The tricky character is 於 usual meaning 'in, at, on, from' relating to an object, but 敢 and 不 敢 are not objects.

於 does therefore here have another meaning e.g. the verbal 'to be, to exist':

 

If brave is to dare then slaughtering.

If brave is to not dare then surviving.

 

That'll say 'brave' is to not do?

Edited September 26, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

The tricky character is 於 usual meaning 'in, at, on, from' relating to an object, but 敢 and 不 敢 are not objects.

於 does therefore here have another meaning e.g. the verbal 'to be, to exist':

 

If brave is to dare then slaughtering.

If brave is to not dare then surviving.

 

That'll say 'brave' is to not do?

 

If one was brave because of daring, then he'll be slaughtered.

If one is brave because of knowing not to dare, then he'll survive.

Edited September 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I think the problem is that most translate the line from Heaven's point of view; As if it is Heaven which has some favoritism or detests something. That is not a LZ theme.

 

If we turn the point of view around, it is people who reject the Way of Heaven or who disgrace the principles of Heaven.

 

What principles?

 

The opening two lines has the LZ theme of 'the strong die and the weak endure'. I see it going like this (interpretation):

 

The strong [headed or willed] will find death prematurely through their own devices.

The weak will naturally find [a longer] life.

Of these two ways one results in harm and one results in benefit.

Thus, some forsake the principles of Heaven; who is able to know their reasons?

 

Okay. I like that view. Of course, I didn't like that word "weak" (Hehehe) but I immediately translated it to the word "flexible".

[XieJia]

I think the problem is that most translate the line from Heaven's point of view; As if it is Heaven which has some favoritism or detests something. That is not a LZ theme.

 

If we turn the point of view around, it is people who reject the Way of Heaven or who disgrace the principles of Heaven.

 

What principles?

 

The opening two lines has the LZ theme of 'the strong die and the weak endure'. I see it going like this (interpretation):

 

The strong [headed or willed] will find death prematurely through their own devices.

The weak will naturally find [a longer] life.

Of these two ways one results in harm and one results in benefit.

Thus, some forsake the principles of Heaven; who is able to know their reasons?

 

 

Yang on the inside, Yin on the outside;

If Yang on the Outside, it's a lesser and not eternal Yang and will not stands

That is to go against that of the Heaven's.

Therefore the sayings, 'Straight trees gets chop down, sharp edge get blunted.'

 

Is it something along these lines?

[lienshan]

If brave is to dare then slaughtering.

If brave is to not dare then surviving.

This pairs someone wins and someone loses

If one was brave because of daring, then he'll be slaughtered.

If one is brave because of knowing not to dare, then he'll survive.

These two types of bravery one benefits and the other does harm.

There's a logical problem with your translation:

 

Why is 'brave because of daring' slaughtered?

Why is 'brave because of not daring' surviving?

 

Who slaughters who and who survives is by purpose not obvious in my own translation,

because nobody knows if the slaughtered corpse belonged to a brave daring or a brave not daring?

 

The next characters occur as a Lao Dan quote in Liezi: 老聃語關尹曰：" 天之所惡 孰知其故 "

Interesting to read how the quoted line was interpreted in ancient times; the next lines:

 

It's called to wellcome the theory of a Heaven.

To evaluate beneficial and harmful is not as good as stopping in time.

Edited September 27, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Edited September 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Edited September 27, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

天之所惡，孰知其故？

Sorry, mistranslation:

"The harmfulness of Heaven, who knows its reason?"

 

Proper translation:

天之所惡: The detestation of heaven.

[lienshan]

The Mawangdui B version

 

If brave is to dare then one is killed.

If brave is to not dare then one survives.

This pairs someone favouring and someone hurt.

The hatred of Heaven, who knows its cause?

The Tao of Heaven isn't an individual like 'Perfect We'.

It's not speaking like the perfect echo.

It's not summoned like the self-invited.

The misrepresenter of Heaven is immeasurable.

The immeasurable is dismissed yet not missing.

 

善朕 'Perfect We' was how the Shang King and later the Qin emperor said 'I'

Edited September 28, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

天之所惡，孰知其故？

Sorry, mistranslation:

"The harmfulness of Heaven, who knows its reason?"

 

Proper translation:

天之所惡: The detestation of heaven.

 

I think it is important to keep clarity in this statement/question. It is an important one signifying that some questions simply do not have answers.

[ChiDragon]

I think it is important to keep clarity in this statement/question. It is an important one signifying that some questions simply do not have answers.

 

天之所惡，孰知其故？

This is the detestation of heaven, who knows its reason???

 

I think it was self explanatory. No...???

[Marblehead]

天之所惡，孰知其故？

This is the detestation of heaven, who knows its reason???

 

I think it was self explanatory. No...???

 

Yes.

 

Although I still prefer wording similar to: "The things heaven hates, who knows why?"

 

But, of course, you guys are dealing with the technical side of this so you must stay with your translations.

[ChiDragon]

Yes.

 

Although I still prefer wording similar to: "The things heaven hates, who knows why?"

 

But, of course, you guys are dealing with the technical side of this so you must stay with your translations.

 

Well, heaven is impartial. It doesn't hate nor love. We knew that from Chapter 5, didn't we...???

[dawei]

Chapter 73

 

4. This was detested by the Principles of Heaven,

5. And who knows why?

But this does not suggest impartiality, does it ???????????

[Marblehead]

Well, heaven is impartial. It doesn't hate nor love. We knew that from Chapter 5, didn't we...???

 

And then Dawei posed an excellent question.

 

You guy have to stay with the literal translation.

 

Does Heaven really hate? I think not. I would agree more with the impartiality point of view but it is true that sometimes it appears that Nature (Heaven) does indeed hate some thing. But who knows why? Perhaps we think it hates because we are so close to negative things that are happening, like innocent children being killed or starving to death for whatever the reason.

 

This is the challenge of living the Way of Tao. Bad things happen without reason. Why? Cause and effect. There really is no 'fault' sometimes; it's just the way things are. Creation and destruction; without reason, without purpose, it just is.

[ChiDragon]

But this does not suggest impartiality, does it ???????????

 

1. One who was brave and courageous then killed.

2. One who is brave but not courageous then survived.

3. These two types of bravery one benefits and the other does harm.

4. This was detested by the Principles of Heaven,

5. And who knows why?

 

IMO I don't think 'hate" was a good word to use here.

The principles of Heaven detested both types of bravery one benefits and the other does harm. Who knows why....???

 

I guess that will make it impartial....!!!

 

 

innocent children being killed or starving to death for whatever the reason. Creation and destruction; without reason, without purpose, it just is.

 

You are right it just is. Thus heaven didn't pick any children, particularly, regardless they are innocent or not.

Edited September 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

If brave is to dare then one is killed.

If brave is to not dare then one survives.

This pairs someone favouring and someone hurt.

The hatred of Heaven, who knows its cause?

 

The first part of the chapter is about the consequences of being the King's favourite or not.

The King spoken of is ofcourse the socalled 'Son of Heaven'.

He is both the 'someone favouring' and the 'someone hurt'!

Depending of the brave dare or not dare speak.

The brave is favoured when the King feel pleased and killed when not.

Who knows what pleases if the 'Son of Heaven' is the last Shang dynasty tyrant?

The Shang 'Son of Heaven' named himself 'Perfect We' when saying 'I'.

 

The Tao of Heaven isn't an individual like 'Perfect We'.

It's not speaking like the perfect echo.

It's not summoned like the self-invited.

The misrepresenter of Heaven is immeasurable.

The immeasurable is dismissed yet not missing.

 

The second part is about the socalled 'Tao of Heaven' compared to the 'Son of Heaven'.

It dismisses the immeasurable to a secondary status because the term isn't 'the Heaven of Tao'!

Heaven's superiority to Tao is marked with a 之 character in the term 天之道

The immeasurable misrepresenter of Heaven = Tao

but the Heaven's net fairytale seems to please the majority?