[TTC Study] Chapter 73 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

1. One who was brave and courageous then killed.

2. One who is brave but not courageous then survived.

3. These two types of bravery one benefits and the other does harm.

4. This was detested by the Principles of Heaven,

5. And who knows why?

 

IMO I don't think 'hate" was a good word to use here.

The principles of Heaven detested both types of bravery one benefits and the other does harm. Who knows why....???

 

I guess that will make it impartial....!!!

 

 

 

 

You are right it just is. Thus heaven didn't pick any children, particularly, regardless they are innocent or not.

 

Maybe we're having the comprehension issue going on here:

 

Detested: to feel intense and often violent antipathy toward : loathe

 

Hate: extreme dislike or antipathy : loathing

 

YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY SAYING HATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

ARE YOU NOT ???????????????????????????????????????

 

IMO, It is the wrong point of view to apply to Heaven... I explained my take; your welcome to the idea that heaven detests both.

[Marblehead]

IMO, It is the wrong point of view to apply to Heaven... I explained my take; your welcome to the idea that heaven detests both.

 

Let's face it guys. Heaven really doesn't give a shit. (No love; no hate.)

[ChiDragon]

Let's face it guys. Heaven really doesn't give a shit. (No love; no hate.)

 

Yes, if we keep this in mind, then we can save lots of argument and don't care what others were saying.

[nestentrie]

73
He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Righteous in spite of the laws is forceably opposed and demonised (or put to death?); he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so abides and lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But
When Heaven's anger smites a man,
Who the cause shall truly scan?
On this account the Facilitating feel a difficulty in what to accept (in the former case).
It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully maintains; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and accept it of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and believable.
The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape.
--
73
He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Benelovent in spite of the laws is taxed and penalised (or put to death?); he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so thrives and lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But
When Heaven's anger smites a man,
Who the cause shall truly scan?
On this account the Merciful feel a difficulty in what to agree with (in the former case).
It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully overcomes; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and agree with it of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and knowable.
The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape.
--
73
He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Proprietous in spite of the laws is ignored and quietly sanctioned (or put to death?) ; he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so peaceably lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But
When Heaven's anger smites a man,
Who the cause shall truly scan?
On this account the Sincere feel a difficulty in what to know (in the former case).
It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully avoids; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and know it for and of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and agreeable.
The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape.
--
73
He whose boldness appears in his daring to be Wise in spite of the laws is defamed and ostracised (or is put to death?); he whose boldness appears in his not daring to do so admirably lives on. Of these two cases the one appears to be advantageous, and the other to be injurious. But
When Heaven's anger smites a man,
Who the cause shall truly scan?
On this account the Honest feel a difficulty in what to believe (in the former case).
It is the way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it skilfully develops; not to speak, and yet it is skilful in obtaining a reply; does not call, and yet men come to it and believe in it of themselves. Its demonstrations are quiet, and yet its plans are skilful and acceptable.
The meshes of the net of Heaven are large; far apart, but letting nothing escape.

Edited August 16, 2014 by nestentrie

[Stosh]

The Mawangdui B version

If brave is to dare then one is killed.
If brave is to not dare then one survives.
This pairs someone favouring and someone hurt.
The hatred of Heaven, who knows its cause?

The Tao of Heaven isn't an individual like 'Perfect We'.
It's not speaking like the perfect echo.
It's not summoned like the self-invited.
The misrepresenter of Heaven is immeasurable.
The immeasurable is dismissed yet not missing.

善朕 'Perfect We' was how the Shang King and later the Qin emperor said 'I'

 

To me this looks like questioning corrected for implying an erroneous anthropomorphism

( which concludes as several of you said.) Idve put a line break in between.

[Marblehead]

I do not understand your comments at the end. More information please?

[Stosh]

I see the chapters , having some single central point ( mostly)

I also see them to be making rational argument

This english conversion looks to be dialogue.

 

Person A is speaking up until the question mark.

Framing what he has seen and considers that the heavens are

NOT impartial because the survival of the man in his 'story'

is not consistent in result.

One may be "brave " and die or one may be 'brave' and live.

His Virtue isnt honored by the heavens.

 

Beyond that question mark there is another philosophic stance

of person B

The great Tao is not a 'perfection' of the human dao.

Not a god who picks one with favor over another.

the ending lines read...

This characterisation of tao is a huge misunderstanding

its dismissed as false ,

but the idea that there is no virtue or justice that is honored by tao is actually correct.

 

Dawei said It is the wrong point of view to apply to Heaven

Mh , you said Let's face it guys. Heaven really doesn't give a shit.

and Cd agreed

So I think all of you are in accord with the second speaker.

Nesentries thing is too long , so I dont know what hes getting at .

Edited August 5, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Okay. Now I understand what you were pointing at.

 

You already pretty much know my opinions on this.

 

Yes, the virtue of man is different from the Virtue of Tao. But this is not good or bad; it just is.

 

Tao is with the one who is in the right place at the right tie. Those who live in a desert don't get rained upon often.

 

An asteroid that was peacefully circling the sun 65 million years ago got knocked out of orbit and started heading toward the sun. But the Earth was in the way - wrong place, wrong time - and the collision ended the era of the dinosaur.

 

We should not atttempt to compare the Virtue of Tao with the virtue of man.

 

Those who are brave win wars. Those who are not brave lose.

 

Some things (the Ten Thousand Things) live longer than others. But all will be destroyed given enough time.

[Stosh]

Okay. Now I understand what you were pointing at.

 

You already pretty much know my opinions on this.

 

Yes, the virtue of man is different from the Virtue of Tao. But this is not good or bad; it just is.

 

Tao is with the one who is in the right place at the right tie. Those who live in a desert don't get rained upon often.

 

An asteroid that was peacefully circling the sun 65 million years ago got knocked out of orbit and started heading toward the sun. But the Earth was in the way - wrong place, wrong time - and the collision ended the era of the dinosaur.

 

We should not atttempt to compare the Virtue of Tao with the virtue of man.

 

Those who are brave win wars. Those who are not brave lose.

 

Some things (the Ten Thousand Things) live longer than others. But all will be destroyed given enough time.

Yeah , Im mostly cognizant of your feelings on this ,

We have some complicated disagreements on these things,

but if we wait patient enough maybe we wont be so opposed.

[Marblehead]

but if we wait patient enough maybe we wont be so opposed.

Yeah, like one day we both will be dead and it won't matter any more.

[Stosh]

Yeah, like one day we both will be dead and it won't matter any more.

That probably true , but since there is no external imperative .. that should be fine too , right?

[Marblehead]

That probably true , but since there is no external imperative .. that should be fine too , right?

Hehehe. Another trick quick question from my friend Stosh.

 

"External imperative" What a concept!

 

External to what or who?

 

To Tao? No, there is no imperative except that what is, is, and what will be, will be. This is always true.

 

To me? Most of my life is imvolved with the external. And yes, some things must be as I want them. My wants, of course, are limited to only those things I have control over.

 

But yes, if one believes as I do that there is no life after death then after I am dead nothing will matter.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Hehehe. Another trick quick question from my friend Stosh.

 

"External imperative" What a concept!

 

External to what or who?

 

To Tao? No, there is no imperative except that what is, is, and what will be, will be. This is always true.

 

To me? Most of my life is imvolved with the external. And yes, some things must be as I want them. My wants, of course, are limited to only those things I have control over.

 

But yes, if one believes as I do that there is no life after death then after I am dead nothing will matter.

Im glad you like that external imperative thing, its a 'pet ' concept I use of late, to just back off and let things be as they are.

I forget it often , but when I dont , it reminds me to check on my internal ones, examine whether the thing is really important to me to react to , or to resolve .... ususally I find I really can let things slide , be patient , let them take care of themselves.

When I forget , which is often , I get churned up over nothing.

 

( external to ones own imagination)

Edited August 6, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I've got a pretty good handle on my external ones. My internal ones, well, I do still get personally involved in things that, like you said, I should just leave alone and harmony will return. But no, I try to fix things that don't need fixing. (Screw more things up that way!)

[Stosh]

Well as you said, ' it won't matter when youre dead'.

My boss says,, ' Cmon, this isnt going to be important to you a year from now if you even remember it.

 

and these things I see as wise perspectives to have , and not very different from my external perspective thing.

Yeah , my boss can put pressure on me to say, work late , because he thinks something is important TO a customer , and so that makes it important , TO him , and its only important to me , if I have an internal imperative to keep my job OR I have an internal imperative on behalf of the customer or my boss. ..

But any way you look at it , the tao doesnt care ,

my boss cant actually hand me his imperative

and the customer cant hand my boss his.

As far as feeling some NEED to resolve a difference , one of us would have to feel like it was important TO ourself.

Rarely does anyone want to change their opinion , neither you nor I really feels a need for it ,

we both get through our days just fine as we are , so there really is no demand to make that happen.

so I end up concurring that theres no need to fix things that arent broken.

( long way round to the same end- eh?)

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Yeah, you do get wordy sometimes.

 

Reading that reminded me of a sign in a place of business (can't remember the business) and while I can't remember the exactly wording it went something like:

 

An emergency on your part is just another business transaction for us.

 

Yeah, we all have our priorities, even Buddhists.

 

But still, Tao doesn't care about that either.

[Stosh]

Hehehe. Yeah, you do get wordy sometimes.

 

Reading that reminded me of a sign in a place of business (can't remember the business) and while I can't remember the exactly wording it went something like:

 

An emergency on your part is just another business transaction for us.

 

Yeah, we all have our priorities, even Buddhists.

 

But still, Tao doesn't care about that either.

Ha ha ha ! well said !

 

Yep I can go on and on , parse things down to a gnats behind. Guilty as charged.