Your Favorite Martial Art

[Mal]

Actually, there's pretty good medical data that shows real cardiorespiratory benefits from taiji although, I agree that it doesn't feel challenging to young fit folks. The key is to get good enough at it that you can do it slowly enough and with deep enough stances to make it truly challenging.

 

Lawrence Galant did some research with ECG's and I've done Tai Chi with my Polar HRM.

 

I can get into aerobic HR zones with a low stance.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Mal Stainkey

[suninmyeyes]

Actually, there's pretty good medical data that shows real cardiorespiratory benefits from taiji although, I agree that it doesn't feel challenging to young fit folks. The key is to get good enough at it that you can do it slowly enough and with deep enough stances to make it truly challenging. And I disagree with you about the flexibility piece - it's great for flexibility. It really helps to loosen the hip joints and the spine in addition to the usual stretching stuff (hamstrings, etc...).

I agree with this.

Taiji is amazing for flexibility and fluidity , it totally helps loosening up (in addition to streching ). Long stances is the answer.

In fact it helepd me loosen up so much and correct contractions caused by injury I have had .Plus I gained new awarness of how to distress myself by loosening up through the right posture whilst standing up or moving about and concentration even in buisy atmosphere at work.

(I should be employed as an advertisment for taiji.)

Something yoga never provided and lacks (this statment has a potential to be individual expirience only , I dont know).

Edited September 27, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I was a member of the Bujinkan for quite a few years and in the end I saw through all the BS.

It's a cult whose members hero worship Hatsumi ( a shrewd business man who cashed in on the 'ninja' craze of the 70's&80's ).

Ninjutsu was made up, a mish mash of Budo arts schools which Hatsumi claimed lineage rights over.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding the art and the organizations who teach it.

The grading system is an absolute joke, with members awarded grades for 'turning up' at seminars and workshops, regardless of the hours put in. I mean 15th Dan, what nonsense !

A karate guy with a few years behind him would walk all over these 'ninjutsu' guys. I've seen it happen.

No, this is not correct.. if you have ever trained with Hatsumi, you simply wouldn't post this nonsense.

 

Be well..

[lifeforce]

Greetings..

 

 

No, this is not correct.. if you have ever trained with Hatsumi, you simply wouldn't post this nonsense.

 

Be well..

 

It's not nonsense my friend. I was a member for 11 years. I have seen a white belt turn up in Japan and be awarded a Dan grade within six months!! People turning up at seminars and having grades transferred from other disciplines. Practitioners injured quite badly by the incompetence and lack of control by high grades (15th Dan, whatever the hell that is).

I've seen karate guys and wing chun guys tear to bits Bujinkan guys with a lot of years training behind them.

I've seen and witnessed the cult-like hero worship of Hatsumi, something that made me very uncomfortable.

It leaves a very bitter taste that I may have wasted all those years training in a 'fake' system with a controversial history.

[spiraltao]

This will be my last off topic statement, but baguazhang and wing chun's sticky hand drills are nearly the same. I think Sifu Matsuo commented about this on youtube by saying wing chun is "internal nun's art" and baguazhang is "internal girl's art", I am still not sure what he ment. I can reference the post if needed.

 

 

Sorry for the digression.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I was a member of the Bujinkan for quite a few years and in the end I saw through all the BS.

It's a cult whose members hero worship Hatsumi ( a shrewd business man who cashed in on the 'ninja' craze of the 70's&80's ).

Ninjutsu was made up, a mish mash of Budo arts schools which Hatsumi claimed lineage rights over.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding the art and the organizations who teach it.

The grading system is an absolute joke, with members awarded grades for 'turning up' at seminars and workshops, regardless of the hours put in. I mean 15th Dan, what nonsense !

A karate guy with a few years behind him would walk all over these 'ninjutsu' guys. I've seen it happen.

 

Greetings..

 

 

No, this is not correct.. if you have ever trained with Hatsumi, you simply wouldn't post this nonsense.

 

Be well..

 

It's not nonsense my friend. I was a member for 11 years. I have seen a white belt turn up in Japan and be awarded a Dan grade within six months!! People turning up at seminars and having grades transferred from other disciplines. Practitioners injured quite badly by the incompetence and lack of control by high grades (15th Dan, whatever the hell that is).

I've seen karate guys and wing chun guys tear to bits Bujinkan guys with a lot of years training behind them.

I've seen and witnessed the cult-like hero worship of Hatsumi, something that made me very uncomfortable.

It leaves a very bitter taste that I may have wasted all those years training in a 'fake' system with a controversial history.

 

No doubt it is highly controversial. Several years ago I did a lot of research into this issue, lineage, etc etc etc. This is just from what I recall off the top of my head....

 

I first got into that section of the MA world through Stephen K. Hayes' material. It was some news for me when he was "kicked out" (though he maintains that it was a private matter settled between him and Hatsumi).

 

Regardless, it's been clear for a LOOOOOOOONG time that Hatsumi has never cared about ranks. They are worthless for him. You want to call yourself a black belt ninja master? Go ahead.

 

It's not the way I'd do things. It's not the way a lot of other people would do things. I think it obfuscates the whole issue and sidelines legitimate teachers. But Hatsumi believes differently.

 

I think another issue, and if I recall correctly, Hayes pointed this out, one of the roots of this lies it Japanese vs western culture. In Japanese culture, it is assumed that you are humble and you talk down your own ability. So when you are awarded a rank, you work harder on your own to EARN that rank for YOURSELF. In some sense, being given a rank is a symbol of confidence from your teacher that your teacher thinks you have the ability to be WORTHY of that rank EVENTUALLY. When you get a black belt, it means the real work is still yet to come.

 

In western culture, being given a rank means you've DONE the work. So a lot of people who weren't "really" black belts in terms of skill went around talking and teaching. And so things started to get watered down. Combined with Hatsumi's not caring about belt ranks......... yeah, bad stuff.

 

Also, from what I hear, back in the old days, training under Hatsumi was HARD. Hayes writes about it. Several other people have broken off and started doing their own training which was closer to what they had experienced themselves, but weren't seeing reflected in the modern Bujinkan. Akban.org has done a great job, I think, of cataloging and practicing more "intensive" forms of training. But if you're going to go through, say, the Bujinkan, there's not a guarantee you'll get that.

 

On to lineage... yes, it's controversial. Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu Toshitsugu, was known and had some skills. Takamatsu was also the legitimate inheritor of (from what I recall) at least three martial art lineages. These lineages are documented and verified from other schools, and are generally well known. But they are not "ninja" schools, per se. The problem is that Bujinkan is said to be based from 9 schools, which leaves 6 of them being "ninja" schools. The problem with lineage verification is with THOSE schools, the "ninja" schools. Takamatsu reportedly received the lineage from someone, but no one has been able to verify that person even existed. So there is, indeed, a missing link. Rumors abound about various evidence that may or may not exist, but nobody really knows for sure except Hatsumi at this point (to the best of my knowledge).

 

The thing that complicates the issue even more is that, well, these arts WERE secret. I have heard it said that when Takamatsu was learning, he was told by his teacher that if anyone asked, Takamatsu was to tell them he practiced Jujutsu, and not to give the name of the style.

 

The other thing that some people argue is that the "ninja schools" weren't ever complete fighting systems, but a collection of techniques to be used in various situations, such as climbing methods, running methods, concealment methods, etc etc etc. And that it all got passed down until it intersected with Takamatsu, where he not only learned some ninja battlefield arts, but also the samurai fighting arts.....

 

 

The point is that, if you are a nut of lineage and history (and I kind of am), there is SOME legitimacy in the Bujinkan (3 fighting arts which seem to have their paperwork in order, though they aren't recognized formally as such by the governing board in Japan about these matters, and 6 "ninja arts" which a lot of people think are just made up). So if you want to learn some historical stuff, like fighting in armor, how they'd deal with weapons, etc etc, there's that.

 

The downside is that there is no quality control. Not a lot of full contact practice. Not of a lot of real conditioning.

 

So yeah, someone with a Wing Chun background could probably clean up in most of those Dojo, which are essentially glorified LARPing clubs.... which is sad, considering that in places like, oh, bullshido, Wing Chun is the butt of every other joke. (But to be fair to bullshido, I found a lot of good factual resources on the lineage of the Bujinkan through bullshido, and the members there who actually pay attention recognize that the Bujinkan does contain some legitimate lineages, and if you try to say it's "all made up", well, they'll run you out of there for being a "fucking idiot", because that's how they roll over there without an insult policy).

Edited September 27, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Protector]

Sounds fun and all but let's go back to discussing Taekkyun, or was it all in my head

[GreytoWhite]

While I've studied some Chen taiji and a little Yin Bagua I really admire liuhebafa the most. Yiquan certainly comes in a close second.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Every. Single. One.

 

 

I Love all martial arts, and prefer to think of them at the core, the seed. Generally, most to all martial arts can be traced back to one point: The core of the human body, Taijiquan/T'ai Chi Chuan type movements.

 

Breathe deep, clear the mind, meditate in stillness, and meditating in motion will follow. Be ever mindful of your being, and let go of your attachments. This is a martial art of the mind.

[Green Tiger]

The arts I've studied at length are Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, and Taijiquan. I've also dabbled in about half a dozen others. My impression is that it really doesn't matter what the style is called, or how it was used historically, it all comes down to how long the instructor has studied martial art and how dedicated he/she has been in that study. Even though we may call it Yang style to honor the originators, by the time it got to me, it was no longer Yang style, per se. It was my teacher's style that I studied.

 

If I wanted to train for cardio and flexibility, I wouldn't find another school, I would just do taijiquan faster and/or deeper. Same goes with Aikido. That art can be very physically demanding, but some people just don't practice that way. I've practiced in schools where the warm-up falling drills had me sweating through my gi!

 

If I were you, I would start by checking out all of the schools you can find in a 20-mile radius and see what they have to offer. Don't worry about what 'type' of school they are so much as what you see happening there.

[Protector]

[thelerner]

Yup, sometimes you gotta hit'em in the funny bone cause thats where they expect it least .

[mewtwo]

yoga and qigong. are my favorites.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'd be careful with Tai Chi...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

[Cat Pillar]

Hahahaha, nice find, Sloppy!

[candide]

I've just finished reading "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin. It's an interesting book where he talks about his chess and later tai chi training. For tai chi, he doesn't mention chi development at all, instead he talks about refining his techniques to be more and more subtle, while keeping their power, tuning into the opponent and uprooting him etc.

 

I would like to ask people skilled in internal arts like tai chi or bagua - how does your training fare in situations where raw power is needed to move dead weight? For practical life/works situations, when you need to haul furniture or carry heavy stuff, that kind of thing. It seems to me lifting weights would provide more benefits for these tasks.

[Clarity]

I would like to ask people skilled in internal arts like tai chi or bagua - how does your training fare in situations where raw power is needed to move dead weight? For practical life/works situations, when you need to haul furniture or carry heavy stuff, that kind of thing. It seems to me lifting weights would provide more benefits for these tasks.

 

Actually, it's more about gravity, leverage, and physics. There's almost always an easier way to move something heavy than using brute force.

[realfastcat]

My favorite Martial Art is Cat style.

I don't bother chasing mice around

[LBDaoist]

Lau Kune Do. It is my favorite because it is the only one I know.

[Gerard]

Actually, there's pretty good medical data that shows real cardiorespiratory benefits from taiji although, I agree that it doesn't feel challenging to young fit folks.

 

Young people would really enjoy the Chen style's Cannon Fist:

 

 

If you are older and not careful it will screw up your knees for life. It's a very demanding and challenging form of the style, and plenty of cardio in there for those interested in the Western model of exercise.

[Yuen Biao]

A lot of people like taiji, but to me it seems not challenging enough for cardiorespiratory...and it doesn't really develop flexibility.

 

Ignorance...so what if you know several forms of Taiji and practise each one three times? I'd argue with anyone that this was not the perfect cardio work!

 

Also Taiji depending of course on the form 'should' develop flexibility, if indeed it does not then it isn't Taiji. Ever heard of 'sleeping Buddha' movement/application from Daoyin Yangsheng Gong Taijiquan Palm form?!!! I guess not...

 

For the poster's benefit Taijiquan is called a holistic art because of its all-round worth as exercise and martial art...the only problem is finding a teacher to teach the 'real' Taiji and not what 'Scotty' has learned or thinks he knows!

[Baguakid]

to answer the op's question...

 

Bagua... no contest.

[Aetherous]

A lot of people like taiji, but to me it seems not challenging enough for cardiorespiratory...and it doesn't really develop flexibility.

 

 

I would put a well trained western boxer against a well trained taiji practitioner any day.

 

the only problem is finding a teacher to teach the 'real' Taiji and not what 'Scotty' has learned or thinks he knows!

 

I do claim ignorance as to the "real Taiji" which you're referring to.

 

The taiji I'm referring to is the weak sauce that everyone knows about, which people would start with if it's suggested to them that they learn taiji.

[Gerard]

The taiji I'm referring to is the weak sauce that everyone knows about...

 

Unfortunately that happens with most internal arts...people expect a lot for nothing. Only the dedicated and sincere students will find teachers who will teach them the real thing. This involves a lifetime of study and practice. Total and absolute dedication. Huang Sheng-Shyan always said that he understood Taiji after 60 years of practice, hahaha.

 

I recommend anyone interested in this subject read the book Infinite Dao, which gives you a deep insight of what is involved in real Taiji practice as well as the spiritual path itself.

 

Normal people practice a washed down version of a Daoist art for just 20 min a day and think that Taiji is either useless or masters of Tai Chi. Well nothing wrong either way, but they are missing the point.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Gerard

[Protector]

When I found out about you

It was dark, you shone so bright

A candle light in dark room

Last star in morning sky

The less I talk about you

The more I learn from you

Look for it and you can also find