Rmax Article On Cst, Rkc And Crossfit

[Cameron]

Here is what I think about this issue...

 

[Smile]

Here is what i think... SS must be one of those "retard" boys

Edited September 29, 2006 by Smile

[Christoph]

If it was poor form to to portray other systems as inferior to CST was it not equally poor form to post the article from a members forum to a competitors forum?

IMO internet forums magnify real life in that if you put out negative energy/criticism etc..justified or not, that is what you get in return 2 fold.

[thaddeus]

I would love to talk about connective tissue though! From what I've read there's a lot of ways to mess up connective tissue (if by that you mean cartilage in the menisci) but I wonder how much of it is from strength training and how much of it is from bad strength training technique. Or muscle imbalances. Or eating wheat and sugar. Or not getting the proper fatty acids in the right amounts.

Right on.

At least from my own personal musings, I find the 'amoring' is due to lack of core intrinsic strength. To me, if i want to release something, something has to be 'tighten' for lack of a better word. I can't elongate, lengthen and release my body and be *completely* relaxed. From my explorations, what allows me to relax is good clean core strength..a strong pelvic floor helps my body relax in yoga postures and the pumping action centered in the core facilitates proper movement. I believe most people's armoring comes from inherent weakness.

To touch on the other aspect, very interesting that arthritis comes only from repeated labor. One of my taichi teachers said that if one practices wrong just a little, then no real harm done. The harm comes from enthusiastic and really hard training done wrong. Also if you only exercise one part of the body to an *extreme* it's very bad (in the TCM point of view--regading the limbs and internal organs,etc.). I tend to believe this from my experiences.

Moving the body in straight lines is generally bad because it's not respecting the joints and the body's natural movement. That's the only validity I would give to a circular movement advantage over straight.

But as a few of you pointed out, it's a lot more complicated than this and there are other factors such as diet, emotions and such that would completely throw all assumptions out the window.

Nice discussion!

T

[cloud recluse]

 

 

From what I've read, the best way to increase connective tissue adaptation is through physical activity. If I was really concerned about it, I may add, say, bone marrow and tendon qi gong (I love Ken Cohen). But I'm not convinced that being active with a proper progression and adequate rest/recovery is unhealthy.

 

My old qi gong teacher told me not to lift weights at all because it gets the qi from your tendons and places it in your muscles, so when you get old your tendon qi is gone. What seems to be *really* unhealthy to me is using the same muscles day in and day out (e.g. treadmill for a half hour a day five days a week) and in fact this cool naturopathic doc I met at the herb fair told me just that. They did research that showed that arthritis and other things did not ever occur until there was specialized labor

 

Being a newcomer to all this stuff,I will beg your patience if this bit of info turns out to be

allready commonplace

 

I vaguely recall reading in the "TEACHINGS OF TAOIST MASTER CHUANG" (by Michael Saso ,I think) that chi gung could be used to offset the damage done by the rigourous strength training done by "external" martial artists,so you could have the benefits of conditioning without any chi depletions ( assuming to find the right balance of activity of course).

 

So there would allready be a 'Daoist precedent' for that approach.It would be "officially daoist" ( if anyone cares ).

 

It does seem to make sense to me.Muscular adaption is as much a natural capacity as chi gung.Why would we have to sacrifice either.Isnt it just a case of balance?

 

Regards,Cloud

[thaddeus]

Here is what I think about this issue...

 

i'm with cam on this one...

 

I vaguely recall reading in the "TEACHINGS OF TAOIST MASTER CHUANG" (by Michael Saso ,I think) that chi gung could be used to offset the damage done by the rigourous strength training done by "external" martial artists,so you could have the benefits of conditioning without any chi depletions ( assuming to find the right balance of activity of course).

<snip>

It does seem to make sense to me.Muscular adaption is as much a natural capacity as chi gung.Why would we have to sacrifice either.Isnt it just a case of balance?

How do you think this makes sense? Just curious regarding why this rings true for you..

T

[cloud recluse]

i'm with cam on this one...

How do you think this makes sense? Just curious regarding why this rings true for you..

T

OK,forgive me if I waffle here a bit Thad.Im putting my thoughts in order as I write this.

 

I suppose I just see conventional conditioning exercises as a formalised approach to natural adaptive processes,thing that would have naturally taken place in our historical environments of origin.Were not scampering through the trees anymore,but we can simulate those processes in exercise.So we get to keep the health benefits of our origins.Muscle hypertyrophy is a NATURAL and NECESSARY process.

 

Thus,nothing unhealthy witha BALANCED exercise routine.Necessary to our health in fact,assuming its tailormade to the individuals situation.Why would this maitainence of a natural function conflict with chi ??

 

Now,it seems to me that chi-gong is also a natural capacity,though historically perhaps a rarer one.

 

So,two natural processes.

 

Of coure,all this ASSUMES balance & moderation on the individuals part. Or did the 'accidental workout' lifestyle of our ancestors preclude chi development?

 

Is chi-gong only available to the leisured classes ?

 

Certainly,their may be practical time constraints,and any one approach may become extreme up to the point of interfering with others.And it still gets back to a question of what the individual requires at the time.

 

But I dont see WHY one method precludes the other? I mean,if your a gym jukie obssesed with a bloated musculature,I dont think chi gong is going to be accesible for a number of reasons.But compensating for a sedentary lifestyle is intelligent & healthy.Theres a certain level of exertion we are built for,& our genotype has not changed in that respect.If we neglect that,we stagnate!

 

And I would have to add there the many examples of athletes entering "Zone" states through conventional muscular exertions.

 

Now,if it turned out there WAS a mutual exclusion of the two,I would be very interested.But the idea seems a little odd.They both seem utterly natural & appropriate in their respective roles in ones life.AND they both can become the focus of extremism.

 

So perhaps its just a question of muscle extremism in an image obsessed culture.Now that WOULD conflict with chi!A lot of approache to exercise ARE unhealthy in the long run,due to an obsession of the ego.But as exercise & chi are both natural,why couldnt they reinforce each other.

 

I mean,a healthy diet "reinforces" exercise.why couldnt a chi-gung do the same? Assuming,once again,the exercise isnt extreme for the individuals situation.

 

I think Im going in circles now But do you see where Im coming from.

 

Regards,Cloud

Edited September 30, 2006 by cloud recluse

[Lozen]

First of all Christoph, I posted the link originally (and the text of the article later when asked to because someone was having trouble reading it) because it mentioned CF, just like I post links to BJJ articles on BJJ sites, whether they are positive or negative. Second of all, CST has not always portrayed other systems as inferior to CST, as you can tell if you look at the back issues of their magazine which have plenty of articles promoting other said "inferior" systems. The reasons these systems are now being called inferior is political, nothing more.

 

Anyways, onward to the more important topic of connective tissue... I have to wonder if tension and release of tension is part of the whole yin/yang balance thing...and I keep thinking of martial arts analogies. I know a lot of the BJJ guys do yoga to try to learn how to relax more when someone's choking them out, and yet of course they are extremely tense (if explosiveness is tension--i think it is) during other parts of their game.

 

My friend who is a qi gong master basically was a gym junkie for a long time and did qi gong all the time too. He brought his qi gong into his strength training.

 

It's interesting...because exercising increases your heart rate, and meditating decreases it, but nobody ever told me I had to choose between the two! Warriorschool teaches that you must strengthen the physical body because if you do not then you will be totally overwhelmed by the spiritual once you begin to open up to it. And that's been my experience--as much as I'd love to say the spiritual comes softly and gently usually I'm like, "Spirit please be gentle with me because there's only so much I can handle!" And I feel like I've been having that problem less and less as I get physically stronger.

 

Now being sore does mean there's some level of inflammation...but I guess I feel like the fact that I can do more and am sore less now means I'm increasing my capacity instead of overtraining.

 

Interested in more thoughts. What do YOU consider overtraining. If somebody is hurting themselves physically, of course that's demonstrative of a lack of balance...

[sunshine]

Hi Lozen,

 

on the topic of heart-rate & exercise: it increaes it only in the beginning and over time (depening on type of training) reduces it often below that of a usual person... only question: is this good compared to the low heart rate meditation is meant to induce... Harry

 

so: you have to choose between the low heartrate continuous exercise produces & that of what meditation produces...

 

at least I think so

 

Harry

[Lozen]

Why do you have to choose? Why can't you exercise AND meditate?

[sunshine]

Why do you have to choose? Why can't you exercise AND meditate?

 

Ahhh... I was referring to what you wrote:

 

>but nobody ever told me I had to choose between the two!<

 

maybe I got it wrong and you meant it the way that nobody asked you to choose... I got it the way that actually you believe one has to choose but nobody ever told you that truth...

 

sorry for the confusion

 

but still: continuous exercise of a certain type reduces heart rate in the long run due to certain adaption processes...

 

Harry

[Christoph]

"Interested in more thoughts. What do YOU consider overtraining. If somebody is hurting themselves physically, of course that's demonstrative of a lack of balance..."

 

Besides the obvious of constant fatigue and soreness increased resting heart rate.

 

"First of all Christoph, I posted the link originally (and the text of the article later when asked to because someone was having trouble reading it) because it mentioned CF, just like I post links to BJJ articles on BJJ sites, whether they are positive or negative."

 

This is exactly what I meant in my first post. When you spread neagativity dont be surprised when it comes back to you.

Who cares what method of exercise people use if it is working for them??

[Lozen]

I could care less what method of exercise people use if they are getting results. That is why I'm REALLY trying to get someone to please take this copy of WW I have in my house. If posting a link to an article is considered "spreading negativity", perhaps one would need to question the content of the article. I know that if I quoted someone's article about their own training phil. to try to discredit their method, as Sonnon's "coaches" did, and if the person I quoted said their quote was hacked up, taken out of context and misinterpreted (as Josh Hillis did), I would immediately take it down. Perhaps your question should be addressed to the authors of said article. Maybe you should ask them why THEY are So upset that people are using other methods of exercise that are working better for them than CST ever did. I'd say ask me but already know where I stand on it.

 

As far as both exercise and meditation reducing heartrate, I still don't see how they work at cross purposes or why they can't be combined.

[sunshine]

As far as both exercise and meditation reducing heartrate, I still don't see how they work at cross purposes or why they can't be combined.

 

They CAN be combined. I just got the understanding of what your wrote wrong.

 

One of my teachers only says that it is hard for very muscular type people who did a lot of weight lifting to do proper energy work... while it hasn'T necessarily to do with meditation maybe to keep in mind

 

Harry

[Lozen]

They CAN be combined. I just got the understanding of what your wrote wrong.

 

No worries!!

 

One of my teachers only says that it is hard for very muscular type people who did a lot of weight lifting to do proper energy work... while it hasn'T necessarily to do with meditation maybe to keep in mind

 

Well, I do know very muscular people who do energy work too... and in fact they say that being in shape helps them... Well, what are we talking about when you say "very muscular" though? I don't mean bodybuilders, but I'm talkin like 8-10 BFP kinda guys.

[sunshine]

No worries!!

Well, I do know very muscular people who do energy work too... and in fact they say that being in shape helps them... Well, what are we talking about when you say "very muscular" though? I don't mean bodybuilders, but I'm talkin like 8-10 BFP kinda guys.

 

While I don't know what BFP is I tend to feel that to be "o.k."

[Lozen]

While I don't know what BFP is I tend to feel that to be "o.k."

 

BFP = body fat percentage.

[Trunk]

Well, I do know very muscular people who do energy work too... and in fact they say that being in shape helps them... Well, what are we talking about when you say "very muscular" though? I don't mean bodybuilders, but I'm talkin like 8-10 BFP kinda guys.

 

It's not about BFP.

 

It's both a matter of

- body-type and

- what sort of exercises you do.

 

One way to look at body-type is general muscle shape. Some people have more "long slender" muscles, and others tend to have more "short bulky" muscles. (There's some sort of physiology about long muscle fibers & short muscle fibers, I think but dunno.)

 

Bulky muscles need more serious strength work just to work out the force that tends to be present & accumulate. Like, some weight lifting in order to just work out the force & relax. But there tends to be more of that kind of force present, and - if not processed - jams up energy flow. But, even after weight-lifting there is the "pumped" feeling, that needs to be stretched out and relaxed so that energy flow occurs more easily. And an adjunct that is very helpful is Sonnon's intu-flow. If they don't do the relaxing part, then there's a lot of residual tightness. There's a higher level of maintainence of expressing the muscular force, then doing the relaxing work, for people with a lot of short muscle fiber.

 

If someone with a lot of short muscle fiber has done a lot of strength training without enough stretching, joint work, etc., then all that tension is hard to undo. Plus, it has often re-enforced around their emotional armoring.

 

The long muscle types don't need to go through all that; they don't have as much of an imperative to process forcefully in the same muscular way. (I'm just speaking very generally, here.)

 

The thing is, the internal martial arts emphasize movement via the fascia layer. The bulky muscles (and associated force) tend to get in the way of that flow. It's not only that force is stored in the muscles, but also the habitual feeling of using the body in that way. Those with somewhat longer muscle fibers can often go right to the facia type of movement easier.

 

That's it for me on this thread.

 

p.s. I know this stuff from personal experience; I'm partly from stocky eastern european heritage. Also, Sonnon's work is not properly an internal martial art (as compared to the asian IMA's), as it lacks some of their central principles. BUT, it is an excellent warm-up / preparation for IMA.

[Lozen]

That's interesting. I know that when I was getting a healing (which was like a two-month process) the more I started learning how to open up my chakra that was blocked, the more I felt completely overwhelmed with the light... and same experience from qi gong and taiji classes. So basically the healer I was working with told me to exercise, she said if my physical body was stronger I would not be as overwhelmed spiritually when I start opening up more. (I was just doing the whole treadmill or elliptical thing and then throwing in some strength circuits on the weight machines when I had time.) I was also doing pilates... It was hard because even with five days a week of the exercise I still felt kind of like I was floating, very ungrounded... so I started focusing on my feet more when I was working out. The healer I was working with told me I should feel elongated, like my feet were connected to the earth and I was a string being pulled tight from the top of my crown chakra.

 

I'm pretty sure my body type needs lotsa exercise because I'm responding so well to it on so many different levels, but this is interesting because once I started keeping a training log I did notice that I stretch out a lot more (intuitively) on days I've lifted weights versus days I do metabolic conditioning. Lots of yoga... lots of making sure my muscles I just worked are still flexible... I want the best of both worlds I guess. I don't know what types of muscle fiber I have but I do know that I need to stretch a lot if I want to maintain my flexibility while increasing my strength.

 

Another thing that helps is hot and cold hydrotherapy immediately after working out, i.e. jumping in the hot tub or sauna and then taking a cold shower, and repeating, ending with cold. And stretching out in the hot tub or sauna.

 

I do a lot of yoga, too, but I kind of change the way they say the energy should flow... Like, I try to make my energy flow up and out instead of down and in... Kind of what I was taught that would be luminously correct, i.e. you are letting the force flow through you and then spreading it out to the rest of the world instead of holding onto it... It's hard to explain but one of the important aspects is you breath in AND out during the majority of the luminous exercises we learned...

 

Anyways, I think it's all based on personal experience, and having the freedom to test things out on your own and see what works and what doesn't. I'm moving away from pilates and towards hatha yoga... actually, I even incorporate some hatha before I do certain exercises...like before I do squats (usually body weight squats) I do variations of Warrior Pose designed to make sure my knees are going OUT and not in, so I'll get the form right on the squat. And come to think of it when I do kettlebell work or even dumbbell swings (which I don't do a whole lot of) I kind of intuitively do some qi gong before and after to get the circulation movin'... I just try not to do too much static stretching before working out because I've read so much about how it leads to injury.

 

The problem I have seen time and time again with people who come to me for herbs is joint pain, usually knee pain, from cartilage disappearing faster than it's created. And usually people take MSM or glucosamine/chondroitin, but I think addressing the issue is more important, whether it's dietary or inflammation from not getting enough recovery or bad technique or a million other reasons. Easy to sell a product, harder to get to the root of it. Anyways, my $.02... even though it's less about fascia and IMA and more about stretching because it feels good. Hopefully this was helpful and maybe Trunk will post again on one of my threads one day.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Lozen