So What does Tao say about attachment/desire

[taowanderer]

I've had some Buddhist input on this recently regarding grasping and attachment and the utilization of wrathful compassion to pierce through it. But the Buddhist path seems like a very bitter medicine to me alot of times, so I was wondering what a taoist perspective is on this!

Edited September 27, 2011 by taowanderer

[Wuji108]

Taoists believe we need to let go of attachment, ego and the control of the five thieves (five senses) all of which can take us off balance and take us out of the internal harmony which is required for internal alchemy. There is a story of Zhen Wu (the Truth Warrior - patron immortal of Wudang Shan - who was an incarnation of the Jade Emperor). The Jade Emperor was sitting in heaven one day when he saw these beautiful lights at the edge of heaven - curiosity arose in his heart and the desire to know what the lights were. Immediately, with the advent of desire, one of his 72 spirits split off and was incarnated into a baby that was to be born to the King of one of the regions of China (sorry can't remember the region's name). While the splinter of the Jade Emperor's spirit was down on earth, the Jade Emperor was not present and the business of heaven was not taken care of (for 4 and half days - while Zhen Wu cultivated for 42 years on earth). There is a lot more to the story, but in this case, the belief that we are "cast out of heaven" when desire arises in our hearts is the key element. Our objective is to eliminate (eventually) all earthly desire and then eventually to also let go of the healthy desire to go to heaven. The means for doing this vary... For example, one of the 8 Immortals had to overcome his desire for sex, so he went to live in a house of prostitution. Eventually he lost his desire for sex (I think it maybe took him 19 years or something like that...) But, yes, we want to eliminate desire...

[Protector]

If you tell Tao what to say, it wont say it. Ha!

[taowanderer]

Taoists believe we need to let go of attachment, ego and the control of the five thieves (five senses) all of which can take us off balance and take us out of the internal harmony which is required for internal alchemy. There is a story of Zhen Wu (the Truth Warrior - patron immortal of Wudang Shan - who was an incarnation of the Jade Emperor). The Jade Emperor was sitting in heaven one day when he saw these beautiful lights at the edge of heaven - curiosity arose in his heart and the desire to know what the lights were. Immediately, with the advent of desire, one of his 72 spirits split off and was incarnated into a baby that was to be born to the King of one of the regions of China (sorry can't remember the region's name). While the splinter of the Jade Emperor's spirit was down on earth, the Jade Emperor was not present and the business of heaven was not taken care of (for 4 and half days - while Zhen Wu cultivated for 42 years on earth). There is a lot more to the story, but in this case, the belief that we are "cast out of heaven" when desire arises in our hearts is the key element. Our objective is to eliminate (eventually) all earthly desire and then eventually to also let go of the healthy desire to go to heaven. The means for doing this vary... For example, one of the 8 Immortals had to overcome his desire for sex, so he went to live in a house of prostitution. Eventually he lost his desire for sex (I think it maybe took him 19 years or something like that...) But, yes, we want to eliminate desire...

 

Interesting! Is there any distinction between attachment and desire? And also unhealthy vs healthy desire?

 

If you tell Tao what to say, it wont say it. Ha!

 

Haha, I mean to invite it.

Edited September 27, 2011 by taowanderer

[Wuji108]

attachment, desire, need - all aspects of the same thing - the delusion that we are separate from the Tao, that we don't have access to everything, that the world is illusion, etc.... so no difference in essence, perhaps just in object and in quality. Healthy vs unhealthy qualitative and quantitative - does it take you closer to heaven or further from heaven - does it help you to improve your frequency (become more yang) or does it degrade your frequency/block you even more from direct experience of the Tao. Eventually even the desire to be done with the wheel of life, the desire to merge with the Tao has to be released. To be in that state of direct union/direct experience...to be in absolute stillness, there has to be no need...no ego, no mind, no judgment.

 

The beauty is the recognition of the natural human state and so no bitterness of where we are now. It is simply whatever it is. The question then is what action will you take...

 

Initially we do "need" the healthy desire to change, to improve, to go to heaven, to fulfill our life purpose and mission, but when we approach the gate, we have have to have no need...

[Marblehead]

Nice to see an Alchemic Taoist posting. Always some interesting stories. Took only 19 years, did it? Hehehe.

 

Ayhow, yeah, that's going a little further than a Philosophical Taoist would go but the concepts are the same. Lessen our ego; lessen our desires.

[XieJia]

no need...no ego, no mind, no judgment.

 

The beauty is the recognition of the natural human state and so no bitterness of where we are now. It is simply whatever it is. The question then is what action will you take...

 

 

Thank you for sharing and the story.

 

 

 

[Protector]

Say, there is suffering

Suffering comes from attachment

So what you need is be completely unattached?

No, you can't be unattached from something you're not part of

First step is unison, give everything a big hug

 

Taiji

[Marblehead]

First step is unison, give everything a big hug

 

Taiji

 

I just hugged my keyboard.

[Protector]

I just hugged my keyboard.

 

Then you will be getting 1337 skillz any second now

[taowanderer]

attachment, desire, need - all aspects of the same thing - the delusion that we are separate from the Tao, that we don't have access to everything, that the world is illusion, etc.... so no difference in essence, perhaps just in object and in quality. Healthy vs unhealthy qualitative and quantitative - does it take you closer to heaven or further from heaven - does it help you to improve your frequency (become more yang) or does it degrade your frequency/block you even more from direct experience of the Tao. Eventually even the desire to be done with the wheel of life, the desire to merge with the Tao has to be released. To be in that state of direct union/direct experience...to be in absolute stillness, there has to be no need...no ego, no mind, no judgment.

 

The beauty is the recognition of the natural human state and so no bitterness of where we are now. It is simply whatever it is. The question then is what action will you take...

 

Initially we do "need" the healthy desire to change, to improve, to go to heaven, to fulfill our life purpose and mission, but when we approach the gate, we have have to have no need...

 

Thank you, Wuji.

 

Say, there is suffering

Suffering comes from attachment

So what you need is be completely unattached?

No, you can't be unattached from something you're not part of

First step is unison, give everything a big hug

 

Taiji

 

[Taomeow]

You have to keep in mind that taoism is an indigenous cognitive paradigm of China while attachment/desire eradication is not. If you come across these ideas inside taoism, they are invariably borrowings. Early taoism is not concerned with them, having different cares altogether -- to wit, bringing human life back into harmony with the life of nature. Nature, incidentally, runs on "attachments" and "desires," as anyone who has ever left the "comforts" of civilization to communicate with her for any significant stretch of time and awareness is likely to notice. Rulers, however, prefer a population free of "attachments and desires," and consequently robotically obedient, with no strong personal likes and dislikes... and consequently no active resistance to anything done to them... so all religions and ideologies supporting these stances have been historically well promoted and financed while the opposite, the natural, brutally suppressed.

 

Caveat emptor.

[taowanderer]

.

Edited October 4, 2011 by taowanderer

[Jeff]

As many others have said, "desire" originates from perceived separation from Tao/existence. Whichever path is chosen, the major steps are the same.

 

The old masters give the same keys. The buddhist "Dhammapada" and the Taoist "Tao-Te-Ching" are the same food, just different spices.

 

Organized religions on the other hand...

 

[zanshin]

Enjoy it while it last, but it won't and that is okay.

[Protector]

Once you see this quote, you will laugh at the whole thread

 

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal name

The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth

The named is the mother of myriad things

[doc benway]

I think that it's extremely difficult to tease Daoist, Buddhist, and Confucian influences out of the Chinese cultural experience. But we can look at the classics and at the example set by the sages.

 

It's clear to me that Daoism encourages us to let go of desire and attachment.

The second treasure of Daoism, referred to in Dao De Jing, is frugality - 二曰俭.

This can be interpreted as frugality but also as economy, restraint, or simplicity.

I like to think of it as in nature - nature wastes nothing and balance exists when there is no excess. The sages eschewed material wealth and power completely. Rank and station were unimportant. They certainly didn't tend towards excess but they didn't necessarily advocate asceticism or self-denial c

 

So I think it's important to really look at what you mean by desire. It's normal and natural to eat when hungry, make love when aroused, replace your shoes when worn. It's when desire creates frustration or obsession or distraction from those things that are important to us (our core values) when it needs to be addressed.

[Taomeow]

Steve,

 

the three treasures of taoism are different between different schools of taoism -- and there's quite a few versions, the Chinese love the number three, because it does beget all things. In alchemical taoism which I study and practice, the three treasures are Perfection, Nondecay, Immortality.

 

It is difficult to separate taoism from the rest of it but not impossible. E.g., if one reads TTC correctly, i.e. as a manual for the ruler rather than for the serf, it becomes clear that most virtues it promulgates simply do not apply to the disenfranchised. They are instructions for the greedy, not for the needy. When the needy get confused into striving to abide by those, the greedy rejoice...

 

And my biggest problem with the whole hoopla:

how do systems that promulgate extinguishing desires reconcile this position with a view of a no-desire state as desirable? and

how do they reconcile the ideal of no attachment with their most tenacious attachment to this ideal?

 

???...

 

They don't. They get by on fragmentation of consciousness and its resulting mandate on holding two mutually exclusive beliefs simultaneously. They get by on having their cake, eating it too, and declaring they don't really want it.

 

Taoism proper is about unification of consciousness, which results in a firm belief that some cake for everyone is good, too much cake for some and too little or none for others is bad, too much cake for you personally will give you indigestion, no cake at all for you personally will give you hunger pangs... A unified, whole, unmolested consciousness (referred to as the state of a "real human," "man/woman of tao," "holy sage," "realized human" and, occasionally, jun zi ) has no problem coping with these situations as they arise. None of them is elevated to the status of an absolute, an ideal. If you are told that no one should want any cake ever for any purposes under any circumstances in order to accomplish whatever, that's not taoism. Taoism is situationally flexible. If I want cake, it will look into why, and how much, and where and how I intend to get it, and when I plan to stop, and what it's made of, and how much I need it and how much I deserve it and so on... rather than invalidate my desire automatically. Cake, of course, stands for "any and all situations of the process of living" here.

[Marblehead]

You have to keep in mind that taoism ...

 

Excellent post Taomeow!

 

(Can you tell that I agree with you? Hehehe.)

[konchog uma]

i think daoism would take issue with some desires and not others. Some are extraneous and a waste of energy. Some, like the desire to eat when hungry, are born of survival and not of frivolity.

 

So i don't think you can lump all desires under one umbrella or we end up throwing the baby out with the water

 

Then again, i dont think daoism takes issue with extraneous desires because they are desires per se, but because they waste energy.

[doc benway]

 

Taoism proper is about unification of consciousness, which results in a firm belief that some cake for everyone is good, too much cake for some and too little or none for others is bad, too much cake for you personally will give you indigestion, no cake at all for you personally will give you hunger pangs... A unified, whole, unmolested consciousness (referred to as the state of a "real human," "man/woman of tao," "holy sage," "realized human" and, occasionally, jun zi ) has no problem coping with these situations as they arise. None of them is elevated to the status of an absolute, an ideal. If you are told that no one should want any cake ever for any purposes under any circumstances in order to accomplish whatever, that's not taoism. Taoism is situationally flexible. If I want cake, it will look into why, and how much, and where and how I intend to get it, and when I plan to stop, and what it's made of, and how much I need it and how much I deserve it and so on... rather than invalidate my desire automatically. Cake, of course, stands for "any and all situations of the process of living" here.

Yes, excellent post.

I particularly like your cake analogy and the "situationally flexible" part.

I think that the key, as you mention, is to look at the desire or the attachment and to understand it for what it is.

Generally speaking, when you are able to do that, it is no longer a problem.

Thanks

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I guess this has been said in various ways, but

 

I think it is pretty obvious that to attain high levels of self mastery, one has to also master their desires so that they are not mastered by them. At the same time, we need to know which desires to listen to, especially for most people. Pregnant women have weird desires for strange food because their body craves something in that food for good reason. I think the same goes for animals who eat fruit kernels before the fruit itself - they listen to their instincts and their body and so they allow it to tell them what they need. Ignoring these calls can be unhealthy, but mastering desires is also part of knowing which ones to listen to.

 

When someone is at an extremely high level of mastery then other standards will apply, but there are stages.

 

Note my signature as well which comes from a Taoist text. Basically, concentration requires the ability to shut out competing desires, so someone who is cultivating spirit as in Taoism will naturally realize the depleting effect on this of being led by desires.

 

Also, for people distressed by poverty or circumstances, bringing them back to tranquility by dropping their raging desire for change can save their sanity and their lives. But I agree that a proper evaluation of the role of desires is important. To have no drive would indicate a weak liver according to TCM.

[dwai]

I've had some Buddhist input on this recently regarding grasping and attachment and the utilization of wrathful compassion to pierce through it. But the Buddhist path seems like a very bitter medicine to me alot of times, so I was wondering what a taoist perspective is on this!

 

Too much of anything is bad. In moderation everything is good. So in order to do without doing, one has detach from the fruits of ones actions. Do for the sake of doing...to the best one's abilities.

 

Indulging the senses in extreme dull the mind...at the end of the day arent all desires indulgment of the senses. So how can i enjoy without indulging? By detaching from the idea of enjoyment and enjoying. We desire because we crave sensual gratiication. Why? Because we prop up stories and legends in our minds about the fruits of these gratifications. If we drop the stories, enjoyment beomes joy, doing becomes not dong....

 

My 2 cents worth...

[Wuji108]

The perspective of reconciliation of opposing forces comes into play here - recognizing when enough is enough - I have enough to feed myself today, so that is enough...I don't have to store so much food in my pantry that much of it sits there for years. I don't have to have ten outfits for each season, I don't have to compete with the Jones. At the same time, yes, I do live so I need food, shelter, clothing, etc, and it is okay to live above subsistence level. The universe will provide.

 

Emotion is natural, and a gift - when is it responded to and acknowledged at its point of origin and then released. The moment we attach to emotion and create drama we are attaching. The moment drama enters the picture, a "need" or attachment has been activated. We attach also to different roles - for example - I may put myself into the role of hero - rushing in to help/heal people. Or I may habitually put myself into the role of victim - attach to the role of victim. This form of attachment is the subject of Taoist Xing (essential nature) training. If we attach to a role, who are we really?

 

And then that brings in the whole question of dialectics - how do we move beyond the yin/yang of the universe? What is the dynamic that lets us bring indulgence and abstention into balance? How do we get to the point of knowing when enough is enough and moving past a particular attachment? How do we shift our perspective to be present in the contentment of the moment and acceptance of what is now?

 

This is such a huge subject - attachment takes so many forms, beyond attachment to things and people...

[Cameron]

Hi Wuji,

 

Nice to see you on Taobums

 

I don't know if you remember me we met in Georgia a few years ago. Right before you were moving to Wudang Shan. I also briefly met your teacher there. Very bright and positive energy he had.

 

Are you still in China? I just moved here a month ago.

 

Best,

 

Cameron