The Swastika

[Immortal4life]

Swastika is of special significance on 2 continents

 

So we see that in both the spiritual traditions of the Native American Hopi people and the spiritual traditions in India, China and Tibet, the Swastika is funadamental.

 

This is a strong indication that both these people's spiritual traditions are somehow connected and related to each other. Yet how could that be if they are on opposite sides of the world and according to scientific theories on how civlization progressed they shouldn't be related to each other? Even the language of the Tibetan people has relations to the language of the Hopi people.

 

And then, I believe even the Dalai Lama himself, the foremost expert on Tibetan spiritual traditions, has admitted the Tibetan People and Hopi people are closely connected and their traditions are related somehow.

 

The most reasonable determination is that the Hopi and Tibetan traditions share a common ancestor tradition that existed in a lost pre-historic culture, and when it was destroyed, that tradition came to influence the Hopi in America, and came to influence the Asians in Asia.

 

The Hopi Prophecy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYoI3LOzCY

 

Hopi Petroglyphs

 

Hopi Prophecy

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/21/6096 .html

Hopi Prophecies - Prophecy Rock - Crystalinks

Near Oraibi, Arizona, there is a petroglyph known as Prophecy Rock that symbolizes many Hopi prophecies said to be over 10,000 years old. Hopi is an ancient Indian village. Their ancestors passed down many prophecies on the origin, history and future of mankind. They did not use scripts but passed them down by word of mouth from generation to generation. In the 1950's, the prophecies were made public in English for the first time. Due to the remote history, hardly any one can provide an appropriate explanation of the leftmost radiating circle and the swastika in the center. Some websites even removed the left part and only explained the center part. The following is a summary of the past interpretations of the Prophecy Rock.

 

The time scale starts from the left to right and is in thousands of years along the horizontal direction. The swastika in the sun on the left side represents the origin of the universe. The large human figure on the left is the Great Spirit. The Top Line represents the path of white man's path of science and technology without any spirituality to balance it; the bottom line represents a spiritual path in harmony with nature. There are three vertical lines. The first line is the beginning time of the prophecy.

 

Each circle represents a cycle of life's annihilation and renewal. The leftmost small circle refers to the annihilation of humanity at the beginning of this cycle of civilization. It may match the "Great Flood" described in legend.

 

The bar between the paths, above the cross, is the coming of white men (the Cross is that of Christianity). It also shows a time when mankind decides which path to follow, materialism or spiritualism. The four small human figures on the upper road represent, on one level, the past three worlds and the present; on another level, the figures indicate that mankind will travel the white man's path, having been seduced by the glamour of its civilization on the surface. The two circles on the bottom line represent the first and second World Wars. The heavy dark vertical line at the end is the decision time for which path to follow, which is today. It represents the last chance for humanity to turn back to nature before the scientific road disintegrates and dissipates. If the material path is followed, as represented by the top horizontal line, the result is a very jagged line that will result in destruction. If the lower spiritual path is followed, the result will be peace and harmony.

 

The small circle after the last chance is the Great Purification, after which corn will grow in abundance again, the Great Spirit will return, and the Path of Life will continue forever...

 

 

Here's a really interesting article about the Grand Canyon finds-

The Grand Canyon Finds

 

Some articles about practitioners who knew the Hopi prophecies now practice in Falun Dafa.

Further Insight into the Relationship between The Prophecies of the Hopi Indians and Our Falun Dafa | Pureinsight

A Visit to the Hopi Nation | Pureinsight

 

The Falun

YouTube - Falun dafa Exercise : An Introduction

The Falun Emblem

Falun Dafa - The Falun Emblem

 

Some more about the Swastika in general

Hindu Culture - Omkar and Swastika

Falun Dafa Clearwisdom.net

Falun Dafa Clearwisdom.net

http://modernconstellations.com/allerleiumasvast.html

 

 

Buddha-

 

In 12,000 years it is expected languages will evolve away from each other and change. However, in language certain words are quite fundamental to ancient people and change less. 2 very important words are "sun" and "moon". "Dawa" is moon in Tibet, sun in Hopi. Sun and Moon and very fundamental words to ancient people.

 

Tibeten Word for Moon, "Dawa"

Dawa (Tibet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Hopi word for Sun "Taawa"

Hopi Words

Edited September 27, 2011 by Immortal4life

[fiveelementtao]

I find this info very interesting. My take is that the swastika is a symbol that is a remnant from the original shamanic culture of Homo sapiens in Africa from at least 70,000 years ago before modern humans migrated from Africa.

 

IMO, for this symbol to be found in so many indigenous cultures around the world, then humans must have brought this symbol with them as they migrated out of Africa into different areas over many thousands of years. It must have been a tremendously powerful symbol since different human cultures brought this symbol with them and retained it's use even as humans adapted into the different races and cultures as they are today.

 

I4L what is your theory as to why the Swastika is found all over the world?

[gendao]

Far less-publicized...but just as interesting, is the 2nd pictograph right by Prophecy Rock, which may arguably depict a classic flying saucer:

[Immortal4life]

I find this info very interesting. My take is that the swastika is a symbol that is a remnant from the original shamanic culture of Homo sapiens in Africa from at least 70,000 years ago before modern humans migrated from Africa.

 

IMO, for this symbol to be found in so many indigenous cultures around the world, then humans must have brought this symbol with them as they migrated out of Africa into different areas over many thousands of years. It must have been a tremendously powerful symbol since different human cultures brought this symbol with them and retained it's use even as humans adapted into the different races and cultures as they are today.

 

I4L what is your theory as to why the Swastika is found all over the world?

 

IMO I don't think going back 70,000 years is necessary to explain it.

 

There is a principle called Occam's Razor which states that when formulating a theory, to never add uneccessary elements to the theory. In laymen's terms it is sometimes explained as "the simplest explanation is the best", though that is not quite an accurate description.

 

So if it can be explained by going back 10,000 years, barring any new or additional evidence, there is no need to go back 70,000 years to explain it.

[Immortal4life]

Far less-publicized...but just as interesting, is the 2nd pictograph right by Prophecy Rock, which may arguably depict a classic flying saucer:

 

Thank you for your contribution.

 

I had heard that there were ideas about UFOs and so called "space brothers" within the Hopi prophecies. However, I had read in some anthropologist sources that all the UFO stuff was just fabricated by new age westerners who were allegedly misrepresenting the Hopi and making things up. They claimed the Hopi never had any ideas about UFOs and never talked about aliens.

 

Now I see that there could indeed be something behind it. It's not a complete fabrication or anything like that. There is indeed some evidence suggesting aliens may in fact be a part of the Hopi tradition.

 

At the end of the day, neither the so called "expert" historians, nor the new age people have the final word, but it is the Hopi themselves who know and explain their own prophecies and who are the authorities and lineage holders.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Immortal4life

[fiveelementtao]

IMO I don't think going back 70,000 years is necessary to explain it.

 

There is a principle called Occam's Razor which states that when formulating a theory, to never add uneccessary elements to the theory. In laymen's terms it is sometimes explained as "the simplest explanation is the best", though that is not quite an accurate description.

 

So if it can be explained by going back 10,000 years, barring any new or additional evidence, there is no need to go back 70,000 years to explain it.

 

Thanks for the critique... OK, so then what is YOUR theory about how this symbol became dispersed around the world?

[Aetherous]

Just to add something...I once read in a Mongolian shamanism book that it represented the movement of the big dipper as the Earth rotates.

[ralis]

Far less-publicized...but just as interesting, is the 2nd pictograph right by Prophecy Rock, which may arguably depict a classic flying saucer:

 

Exactly, what is a classic flying saucer? For anyone to reach a conclusion that any petroglyph is a drawing of a UFO, knows nothing about symbolic representations that are tribal in origin. Have you even been to the desert SW and spent any time around ruins of indigenous peoples?

 

I live in the desert SW and I really resent the UFO new age buffs with their bizarre fantasies around Native American culture. BTW, I am part Native American.

 

Petroglyph's that have been documented by archeologist's as being authentic were part of a vision quest or depicted something from nature.

 

BTW, your UFO photo appears to be from a very bad 1950's sci fi movie. :lol:

Edited September 27, 2011 by ralis

[ralis]

Thank you for your contribution.

 

I had heard that there were ideas about UFOs and so called "space brothers" within the Hopi prophecies. However, I had read in some anthropologist sources that all the UFO stuff was just fabricated by new age westerners who were allegedly misrepresenting the Hopi and making things up. They claimed the Hopi never had any ideas about UFOs and never talked about aliens.

 

Now I see that there could indeed be something behind it. It's not a complete fabrication or anything like that. There is indeed some evidence suggesting aliens may in fact be a part of the Hopi tradition.

 

At the end of the day, neither the so called "expert" historians, nor the new age people have the final word, but it is the Hopi themselves who know and explain their own prophecies and who are the authorities and lineage holders.

 

 

Please produce proof as verification. Otherwise, the UFO business that new age buffs fantasize in regards to any native people is bogus.

[Immortal4life]

Edited September 28, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Immortal4life]

More about Hopi Prophecy, and Space Brothers-

http://www.clearwisdom.net/html/articles/2000/11/20/6108.html

"Everything happens right after another like dominos.

 

Caused by Peoples' corruption.

 

Will have star people visit, but he doesn't know who or if they will help or hinder us.

 

Has happened before in times past. Changes will take place in such a way that planet will become a different planet.

 

Afterwards life changes. One language (doesn't know which one) and one law. (not NWO type of one law). The dark-hearted ones will be eliminated and the good hearted ones walking with the One will continue this world."

 

 

--- Excerpts from "Hopi Prophecy"

Edited September 30, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Immortal4life]

Thanks for the critique... OK, so then what is YOUR theory about how this symbol became dispersed around the world?

 

It's not a completely simple matter, however, in the specific case of Native Americans and Asians, I believe the best short explanation I can make was in the OP when I said....

 

"The most reasonable determination is that the Hopi and Tibetan traditions share a common ancestor tradition that existed in a lost pre-historic culture, and when it was destroyed, that tradition came to influence the Hopi in America, and came to influence the Asians in Asia."

[fiveelementtao]

It's not a completely simple matter, however, in the specific case of Native Americans and Asians, I believe the best short explanation I can make was in the OP when I said....

 

"The most reasonable determination is that the Hopi and Tibetan traditions share a common ancestor tradition that existed in a lost pre-historic culture, and when it was destroyed, that tradition came to influence the Hopi in America, and came to influence the Asians in Asia."

 

This is where I think your agenda is influencing your understanding of history and your interpretation of it.

The asians got the swastika from the buddhist culture in India which inherited it from the vedic culture. The vedic culture is an indo european culture. The swastika is found throughout all of pre-historic indo-european culture including celtic,germanic, slavic, greek etc...My link

 

So, there is no mystery how the swastika got to asia. it was imported through buddhism from indo-european culture. The only mystery is where did the native americans get it? Your theory sounds like you believe it was imported to the americas from atlantis.

 

I am going to give you back your occam's razor. The easiest, most simple and reasonable explanation is that at one time the native american culture and the indo-european culture once came from a common root culture and this symbol was passed down orally. THis would mean that the swastika was a shamanic symbol used by the original human migrants into the northern hemishpere.

 

The same hopi tradition you are using to justify your atlantis theory also talks about how the Great Spirit called all the people together and sent them out into the four directions to learn the elements. Black -west to learn water, Yellow- east to learn Air, Red- South to learn Earth and White - North to learn Fire. So, according the same hopi tradition you are using to promote your agenda, they teach that all people on the planet come from an original culture. In order for that culture to predate the genetic adaptation of skin color, it must have been at least 50,000 years old.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjgL8YAmN4

 

This would mean that this message was given to humans before they left Africa. In order for the blacks to have gone west to learn water, they would already have to be in Africa. 70,000 years ago (according to modern science) Sorry, I know that bothers you... According to the latest dna and archeological evidence, the modern human race was almost wiped out until around 70,000 years ago, humans began migrating out of east africa where the last humans had survived. The "blacks" who are modern day africans migrated West. after other migrants had made it into the northern hemisphere, they split again those who went into Europe went west and NORTH. Those who went to asia, went East and those who eventually made it into the Americas went East and then SOUTH. So, all the directions of the people according to the hopis can be seen in modern dna and archeological science.

 

I do find your information interesting, but your conclusions are based in your agenda. You are forcing your agenda onto your evidence.

[mewtwo]

very interesting thread. See i believe somewhat in the ancient aliens stuff and that all cultures shared a original location and such. the way i see it there are always at least two ways to look at stuff like this, the spiritual and the scentific.

 

For the spiritual the people just looked inside themselves for the answer and found the swastika and such and that is how we have it on different continents and different times and such.

 

Then there is the scientific, where we all shared a same lost civilization who started using this. What ever that civilization was is lost to history. possibly we used this sign when we were still in africa and had not migrated out of it yet.

 

On the swastika in general i had a teacher tell me once that the swastika was created by hitler for evil purposes. LOL i tried to explain that it had a longer history than that but she was like it is an evil sign.

[Immortal4life]

I am going to give you back your occam's razor. The easiest, most simple and reasonable explanation is that at one time the native american culture and the indo-european culture once came from a common root culture and this symbol was passed down orally. THis would mean that the swastika was a shamanic symbol used by the original human migrants into the northern hemishpere.

 

Attempting to put a date of 50,000 BC or even further back to all of this is just not following Occam's Razor.

 

There is also a huge Gap between this theorized "African orgin" of the Swastika, the supposed Indo-Eurpopean culture, and the existence of the Native American traditions in North America. The "African Shamanic" explanation is far too elaborate and has too many gaps.

 

There is still no need to go beyond 12,000 years ago to explain the curious facts examined here.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Immortal4life

[taooneusa]

swastika is a 2 dimension diagram of a higher dimension pattern seen at

the entrance or void between levels of the nine palaces.

Prophecies with diagrams like these are useful maps of internal potential.

When taken for their external meaning 'ending of the world' they lose

importance for individual seekers lacking intuitive insight of their true meaning

except perhaps to spurn oneself to intensity with the work of developing intuition.

[Immortal4life]

More-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12300228

 

 

So-called anatomically modern humans are thought to have emerged some 200,000 years ago.

 

They later spread out, migrating to other continents where they displaced the indigenous human groups such as the Neanderthals in Europe and the Denisovans in Asia.

 

DNA from the cell's powerhouses - or mitochondria - can be used as a "clock" for reconstructing the timing of human migrations. This is because mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) accumulates mutations, or changes, at a known rate.

 

Researchers used a dating technique that relies on when the tools were buried.

 

Studies of mtDNA had suggested a timing for the "Out of Africa" exodus of 60-70,000 years ago.

 

But scientists behind the latest study argue that the people who made tools at Jebel Faya 125,000 years ago are ancestral to humans living outside Africa today.

 

Professor Uerpmann said the estimates of time using genetic data were "very rough".

 

"The domestic dog was said to be 120,000 years old, and now it is 20,000. You can imagine how variable the genetic dating is," he explained.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Immortal4life

[fiveelementtao]

I4L, you can use the typical TTB's tactic of cherry picking a few lines and getting into semantics while simultaneously avoiding the larger challenges to your argument. And while it may work on the schoolyard, it still doesn't diminish the severe lack of evidence and logic in your theories which you conveniently continue to avoid...

 

Attempting to put a date of 50,000 BC or even further back to all of this is just not following Occam's Razor.

How so? So, your saying that oral tradition is less logical than aliens or mythical lost civilizations? I am not completely sold on my theory but as far as occam's razor goes, my theory is far more reasonable than aliens or lost civilizations...

 

 

There is also a huge Gap between this theorized "African orgin" of the Swastika,

 

Very true. For me this is just an interesting theory which can be explained as a possibility within established scientific evidence.

But, while there is gap in time, it is not an elaborate theory at all. It is extremely simple. YOUR theory of aliens and lost continents and civilizations is extremely elaborate and has HUGE gaps in it and is supported by NO established scientific evidence.

 

the supposed Indo-Eurpopean culture,

Your bias is showing through here too. The Indo-european language family is an absolute fact. I gather from your statement here that the proven reality of the IE language and it's influence on prehistoric culture somehow doesn't help your theory so, as with many other facts that don't help your agenda, you conveniently write it off. But, if you want to disprove something you need EVIDENCE. You have provided none.

 

In terms of the use of the swastika, you only cited "asians" (whatever that means) and "Native Americans" in your argument. You either have not done enough research to know that the swastika is found far, far more prominently and far earlier in the historic and archeological record in Pre-Christian Europe and India than in Asia and The New World combined or you chose to ignore that fact because it did not serve your theory. (I suspect it is the former)

 

I am open to the possibility that the swastika has multiple origins, but since you are positing that the swastika has only one source and if I follow your logic, then the only source for it would have to be the Indo-European culture...

There is still no need to go beyond 12,000 years ago to explain the curious facts examined here.

Why is there "no need"? Because it doesn't support your agenda? Time is absolutely a factor here... You can't just simply put an arbitrary beginning point to your research and theories unless you can back them up with evidence... In fact, I would counter that there is "no need" NOT to allow for a longer period of time. But even if you are right and the swastika has it's origins 12,000 years ago, then if I follow your logic again, the Indo-Europeans are the only source possible. If we go further back in time, then that opens it up to other sources...

 

While you have cherry picked these few things to argue, you still have not addressed the unavoidable inconsistency of the Hopi position on the origins of civlization and your flagrant use of that same culture to promote your theories which are not found in Hopi tradition...

 

I4L, I do enjoy your unusual and interesting "evidence" but what I find most annoying about you is that you clearly have assumptions and agendas that you rarely state upfront. So, while your posts are interesting, I don;t know what point you are trying to make and it makes feel like you are trying to hide something or sneak it past. Perhaps because you know that you will be seriously challenged if you are upfront about your agenda... I don't think you have thoroughly thought through your positions and in this case you clearly have done little to no research on the provable history of the Swastika... Agendas and assumptions are necessary but in order to logically present a theory you have to at least be aware of what your assumptions and agendas are and be able to present them logically. If there are possible holes in your theories and you want to address them in order to prove your theories, you need to do so openly so that people can follow your logic...

 

I am letting you know that I will continually challenge your findings as long as they are presented in this self-referential and biased way. Not because I am not interested in the subject, but because I personally am opposed to flagrant avoidance of critical thinking. I think it sets a poor standard for this forum. Some of the newer members would be better influenced and encouraged by examples of logical, critical thinking skills and the humility of not presenting personal biases over thorough research...

[fiveelementtao]

More-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12300228

All that says is that there is some discrepency as to when modern humans left Africa. It has ZERO bearing on the inconsistencies with your theory. For me, it just means that the date of the migrations may need to be adjusted. That is all...

 

Again... Lack of critical thinking and lack of thoroughly thinking through your position...

[taooneusa]

" Within the Yungdrung are the five directions of the universe. The four directions of the symbol are the corners, with the middle as fifth, indicating the structure of all the energies of the universe. The yungdrung can be found in the right hand of Tonpa Sherab in the form of a scepter, otherwise known as a chagshing. One Yungdrung symbolizing the outer teachings, the other the inner teachings and the middle representing the teachings of Dzochen. Needless to say, it is profoundly intriguing that Tonpa Shenrab introduced Yungdrung Bon 18,000 years ago with a cosmic map that scientists today are only beginning to discover!

 

Also important to mention is the holy Mt. of Kailash, or “Yungdrung Gutseg”. The Zhang Zhung translation means, “nine swastikas stacked one above the other”. "

My link

Edited October 3, 2011 by taooneusa

[Immortal4life]

I4L, you can use the typical TTB's tactic of cherry picking a few lines and getting into semantics while simultaneously avoiding the larger challenges to your argument. And while it may work on the schoolyard, it still doesn't diminish the severe lack of evidence and logic in your theories which you conveniently continue to avoid...

 

I picked the lines which were the foundation of your theory. I felt no need to respond beyond that, because the rest was just elaboration of your elaborate African Shaman theory.

 

How so? So, your saying that oral tradition is less logical than aliens or mythical lost civilizations? I am not completely sold on my theory but as far as occam's razor goes, my theory is far more reasonable than aliens or lost civilizations...

 

You don't have any proof of an oral tradition connecting African Shamans, to Indo Europeans, to Native Americans, therefore, it is an unecessary and superfluous explanation. If you ask any archaeologist or historian, they will tell you there are many problems with oral tradition and it is indeed notoriously unreliable if you take it too literally.

 

Your opinion of what is reasonable or outlandish, is simply just your own opinion. It has little to do with what follows consistent logic.

 

Very true. For me this is just an interesting theory which can be explained as a possibility within established scientific evidence.

But, while there is gap in time, it is not an elaborate theory at all.

 

The Gap is too large. You went from Indo-European language, which does not pre-date 12,000 years ago, all the way to connecting it to Shamans 70,000 years ago.

 

Trying to make oral traditions, or any kind of spiritual tradition, fit into scientific theories, or taking them as literal history, is not going to lead to any correct conclusions. If you insist that spiritual traditions fit with whatever is the popular scientific theory, you will miss the point.

 

It is extremely simple. YOUR theory of aliens and lost continents and civilizations is extremely elaborate and has HUGE gaps in it and is supported by NO established scientific evidence.

 

It is not simple at all, you have to be very creative and believe oral traditions lasted over 50,000 years, and still would exist in a recognizable form that you could draw tangible parallels and connections to each other. That's reaching.

 

Your bias is showing through here too. The Indo-european language family is an absolute fact. I gather from your statement here that the proven reality of the IE language and it's influence on prehistoric culture somehow doesn't help your theory so, as with many other facts that don't help your agenda, you conveniently write it off. But, if you want to disprove something you need EVIDENCE. You have provided none.

 

It doesn't go back far enough to have much bearing on, or disprove, either of our theories. My theory goes back far enough that it can explain the Indo European connections. However, when you connect Indo Europeans to African Shamans, that is grasping too far and drawing too many unwarranted conclusions.

 

In terms of the use of the swastika, you only cited "asians" (whatever that means) and "Native Americans" in your argument. You either have not done enough research to know that the swastika is found far, far more prominently and far earlier in the historic and archeological record in Pre-Christian Europe and India than in Asia and The New World combined or you chose to ignore that fact because it did not serve your theory. (I suspect it is the former)

 

Asia can include India. I specified what I meant in the OP.

 

I am open to the possibility that the swastika has multiple origins, but since you are positing that the swastika has only one source and if I follow your logic, then the only source for it would have to be the Indo-European culture...

 

Indo Europeans could have possibly got it from a pre-historic cultutre( Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu, etc.) which existed for a long time before 12,000 years ago, but going back 70,000 years is unwarranted.

 

I have not said every single image of the Swastika had to have a common source, though I am sure many do. Depends on the context, and other factors.

 

Why is there "no need"? Because it doesn't support your agenda? Time is absolutely a factor here... You can't just simply put an arbitrary beginning point to your research and theories unless you can back them up with evidence... In fact, I would counter that there is "no need" NOT to allow for a longer period of time. But even if you are right and the swastika has it's origins 12,000 years ago, then if I follow your logic again, the Indo-Europeans are the only source possible. If we go further back in time, then that opens it up to other sources...

 

There is no need because you can only go as far back as you can trace. The jump from 12,000 years to connecting it to 70,000 leaves too much of a gap with nothing to connect it.

 

You seem very sure you know everything that was going on and everything that is "possible" 12,000 years ago, so long ago.

 

While you have cherry picked these few things to argue, you still have not addressed the unavoidable inconsistency of the Hopi position on the origins of civlization and your flagrant use of that same culture to promote your theories which are not found in Hopi tradition...

 

 

The Hopi position? I think you are confusing your own position for theirs.

 

The Hopi tradition says nothing about Humans coming from Africa! Only you have interpeted it that way, through IMO, huge leaps of faith and gaps in logic.

 

The only one re-interpeting anything here is you.

 

I4L, I do enjoy your unusual and interesting "evidence" but what I find most annoying about you is that you clearly have assumptions and agendas that you rarely state upfront. So, while your posts are interesting, I don;t know what point you are trying to make and it makes feel like you are trying to hide something or sneak it past. Perhaps because you know that you will be seriously challenged if you are upfront about your agenda... I don't think you have thoroughly thought through your positions and in this case you clearly have done little to no research on the provable history of the Swastika... Agendas and assumptions are necessary but in order to logically present a theory you have to at least be aware of what your assumptions and agendas are and be able to present them logically. If there are possible holes in your theories and you want to address them in order to prove your theories, you need to do so openly so that people can follow your logic...

 

I am letting you know that I will continually challenge your findings as long as they are presented in this self-referential and biased way. Not because I am not interested in the subject, but because I personally am opposed to flagrant avoidance of critical thinking. I think it sets a poor standard for this forum. Some of the newer members would be better influenced and encouraged by examples of logical, critical thinking skills and the humility of not presenting personal biases over thorough research...

 

You are free to continue to challenge my theories with even more outlandish theories of your own.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Immortal4life]

All that says is that there is some discrepency as to when modern humans left Africa. It has ZERO bearing on the inconsistencies with your theory. For me, it just means that the date of the migrations may need to be adjusted. That is all...

 

Again... Lack of critical thinking and lack of thoroughly thinking through your position...

 

It has no bearing on my theory either way.

 

However, it does have bearing on your theory.

 

You see, you are trying to view the Hopi tradition through the "lenses" of what scientific theories you believe. You got very stuck on the 70,000 year old date, and insisted the Hopi tradition was referring to this date. It is not. This is called shoe-horning or force-fitting. Trying to force the Hopi tradition to fit with how you think history was in the past.

 

So now you "adjust" the date, but you are still force fitting a date! It's just a new date instead of the old one.

 

So are you going to really adjust your date to 125,000 years ago?

Edited October 3, 2011 by Immortal4life

[starhawk]

Just to add something...I once read in a Mongolian shamanism book that it represented the movement of the big dipper as the Earth rotates.

swastika is a 2 dimension diagram of a higher dimension pattern seen at

the entrance or void between levels of the nine palaces.

Prophecies with diagrams like these are useful maps of internal potential.

When taken for their external meaning 'ending of the world' they lose

importance for individual seekers lacking intuitive insight of their true meaning

except perhaps to spurn oneself to intensity with the work of developing intuition.

 

Yes, thank you both of you.

 

The fact that the alternative is to play archeologist, which would not yield conclusive evidence whatsoever, even if millions of dollars were poured into its research.

 

by the way, there were people who did just that. Were prone to the pet archeology of the swastika, and spent massive resources on a national budget scale... that's right you guessed it, Nazi mysticism. Did they learn anything? Its hard to say, but nothing is left for us debating on a public tao bums forum

 

In my opinion, it would be more interesting to see what Hopi intuition has developed and to talk to a Hopi shaman, if they still exist.

[fiveelementtao]

I4L,

date shmate, who cares? I'm not attached to any date and I'm not interested in the tit for tat nonsense argument game...

I'm not trying to compete theories with you... I'm not married to mine. I find them interesting but I am open to any verfiable theories... In any case, you are deflecting.. Making this about me does not diminish the fact that you clearly have not done enough research about this subject to even begin offering any definitive theories about it. nor that you are interested in actual objective research. The facts themselves have definitively defeated your premise, not I. trying to discredit me won't somehow make your agenda more valid.

 

And while I am not a mod and anyone is welcome on this forum. I still do not understand why you are even here on a Taoist forum other than to promote your anti-science agenda. You are extremely selective about what questions or challenges you respond to. You have not stated whether you practice any form of energetic or meditative cultivation practice. So why are you here? As far as I know you do not participate in any discussions about energetic or meditative practices. The only threads of yours I have read concern this new-age fringe Pseudo science and how to pick up girls... So, I find it annoying that you keep filling the board with your anti-science, alien, atlantis agenda. If you contributed constructively to other threads or other subjects that are in line with this forum, I would be far less annoyed with your threads.

 

On the whole I object to your participation in the furtherance of ignorance, superstition and closemindedness. I find your lack of critical awareness a negative influence on the spirit of the forum. I know that some on this board have personal difficulty with confrontation and so they humor you in the spirit of unity, But, until I lose interest, I plan on calling you on your agenda driven B.S. and voicing my displeasure at you spamming the forum with this nonsense... Perhaps I am only fueling your desire to have pointless arguments. I'm not sure yet.. But I wish you would share this stuff in a more appropriate venue or in the "off topic section" or better yet get your own personal practice forum and knock it off with the proseletyzing...

Edited October 3, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[zerostao]