Sex and Karma

[deci belle]

[Birch]

Deci-Belle, you've nailed it (no pun intended:-))

Not that i believe in karma. I do believe in resolution, no, rather I've experienced resolution in many forms. One can accelerate it by acheiving wu-wei (right as in appropriate relative and not "good or bad" to all conditions prior, present and future) and one can acheive it by living one's life with no conscious intention to acheive anything better or fear anything worse than whatever is at any given anything.

However, personally i enjoy metaphor and narrative and moments and life in general.

Cutting chords with people is something I've tried too. But the effects are weird IME. I'm currently experimenting with other stuff that's not quite as brutal, nor requires anyone else to get "cut off" from whatever they're getting from "me". That's their business:-)

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

In order to not accrue further karmic debt, one has to do desireless action ( or be wu wei) . The bhagavad gita refers to this as nishkAma karma. It is obvious that its not possible to have sexual contact without "desire", so then one has to see whether the coupling "just" happens or was it driven by force of will. Former would minimize the impact, latter will aximze it.

 

 

Tantric, a double edged sword, can both amplify the desire, and curb it all together, turning sex into lovemaking, bringing desire to experience to subside, and the act becomes a gift.

 

Mindful awareness of the breath in all things.

[suninmyeyes]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

One thing about sex and attraction and desire, I think, is that there is difference between desiring something, and enjoying something.

 

desiring is desiring to make something happen or to make something yours that is not yours. Enjoying is enjoying something that is happening. Is it possible to just have sex without desire, but with enjoyment of the moment? It would take some discipline anyways, but I suspect this is key, and maybe part of Hindu Tantric sexual practice (would be cool is Seth was reading this..)?

[Guest QIan Xie]

<snip>

I say that sexy sparky thing is potential itself. Perennially at the brink of existence, and, as such, the most ancient moment of all time— as fresh as fresh can be… and at the height of its …potential. oooooh~ tres sexy!!❤ Would I dare mislead you?

 

Would I dare be misled?

I am still standing by my original statement concerning Karma and think most folks are very confused on the subject.

I say that "sexy sparky" thing is the result of a harmony between physical and mental energies in the very moment, toss in the whole preprogramed Physiological component and one starts screaming for God to witness the event ;-)

 

Now, if I did believe in Karma, what would the implications be for faking orgasm...

 

Would I, if I could, attempt to mislead you?

 

Touche...

Edited October 6, 2011 by QIan Xie

[dwai]

Tantric, a double edged sword, can both amplify the desire, and curb it all together, turning sex into lovemaking, bringing desire to experience to subside, and the act becomes a gift.

 

Mindful awareness of the breath in all things.

Without understanding the difference between love (the unselfish kind that would open one's heart to compassion) and lust, it is very dangerous to venture into tantrik left hand path.

For tantrik left hand path to work, it is important that the heart of compassion be realized. Otherwise the sacred becomes profane...

[Guest QIan Xie]

Without understanding the difference between love (the unselfish kind that would open one's heart to compassion) and lust, it is very dangerous to venture into tantrik left hand path.

For tantrik left hand path to work, it is important that the heart of compassion be realized. Otherwise the sacred becomes profane...

 

That's all very nicely Buddhist, but for a person following Dao it's just not that difficult.

 

Ymmv

[deci belle]

Harmonious said:

Enjoying is enjoying something that is happening. Is it possible to just have sex without desire, but with enjoyment of the moment?

 

Oui!! It's something is happening for those dedicated to now, and for those, this is through and through.❤

 

Touche...

…as you wish, Qian Xie.

 

However, personally i enjoy metaphor and narrative and moments and life in general.

Cutting chords with people is something I've tried too. But the effects are weird IME. I'm currently experimenting with other stuff that's not quite as brutal, nor requires anyone else to get "cut off" from whatever they're getting from "me". That's their business:-)

 

It's true~ and this aspect falls directly into operations of yin convergence where parallels in the Art of War are most apparent. I call it recognizing gaps. They all need to be filled depending on the situation. I just go along until the time is ripe, then I clamp, or hook, or release, or hide, or ride, or fill the gap. After it's sealed, there is no before and after; assessing objectively, adapting impersonally and then acting decisively, there can be no regret. It all depends on the configurations of potential that the other brings. Of course, this is a delicate juncture… but the resolve must be resolute, impersonal and clear to be effective, otherwise a sense of forced adamance will require adjustments to effect balance.

 

The 2nd line of the 63rd hexagram may shed light on this.

 

(ed note: add last quote and comment)

Edited October 7, 2011 by deci belle

[mat black]

That's all very nicely Buddhist, but for a person following Dao it's just not that difficult.

 

Ymmv

 

You think what Dwai said is 'very nicely Buddhist' and that it is somehow different to the Dao? You're kidding right? If that's what you're saying it's like me saying the law of gravity was explained by a man from England, but I live in Australia so it doesnt apply to us here.

The truth is the truth whoever is saying it, and when Dwai said that lust and compassionate love are different he spoke a truth.

Edited October 7, 2011 by mat black

[mat black]

...

Edited October 7, 2011 by mat black

[Bubbles]

That's all very nicely Buddhist, but for a person following Dao it's just not that difficult.

 

Ymmv

 

Dwai and mat black have said it all.

 

All the Daoist texts I have confirm that lust is an obstacle to cultivation. Even texts about sexual practices point the difference between sexual energy and lust.

This is not nicely Buddhist only, it is nicely Daoist also.

Edited October 7, 2011 by bubbles

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Without understanding the difference between love (the unselfish kind that would open one's heart to compassion) and lust, it is very dangerous to venture into tantrik left hand path.

For tantrik left hand path to work, it is important that the heart of compassion be realized. Otherwise the sacred becomes profane...

 

 

Rather, what I was trying to suggest could be viewed as a "tantric 'claspped hands' path". Not to suggest it would be easily accomplished or without risk.

[Walrus]

You think what Dwai said is 'very nicely Buddhist' and that it is somehow different to the Dao? You're kidding right? If that's what you're saying it's like me saying the law of gravity was explained by a man from England, but I live in Australia so it doesnt apply to us here.

The truth is the truth whoever is saying it, and when Dwai said that lust and compassionate love are different he spoke a truth.

 

 

Your logic is flawed, we are not talking about laws of nature.

You are clearly a Buddhist and that's great, but please respect the difference between Daoist's and Buddhist's, I will do the same.

Lust and love are different but both human qualities,is there not a little lust in compassion and compassion in lust?

[Walrus]

Dwai and mat black have said it all.

 

All the Daoist texts I have confirm that lust is an obstacle to cultivation. Even texts about sexual practices point the difference between sexual energy and lust.

This is not nicely Buddhist only, it is nicely Daoist also.

 

Well, if you read it in a book it must be true then.....

Of course unless it's not....

 

Your life, your choices.....

[dwai]

That's all very nicely Buddhist, but for a person following Dao it's just not that difficult.

 

Ymmv

I spoke from a general tantra perspective. Without compassionate love (which i differentiated from the selfish love of wanting to own), imho, while it is possible to do a strictly energetic exchange, it is also potentially dangerous sjince it builds more "entanglement". Unless both partners are mature in their approach, compassion being a key feature of such a state, i would be wary of such an exchange. To have an exchange without that would be then coming from a selfish position, where there would be a tendency to take but not give, meaning no harmony, no taiji. If both cared to give and take, there would be constructive energetic interference, otherwise there would be the opposite effect.

 

Btw, i would not call me. Buddhist. I know most bums here wouldnt either....

Edited October 7, 2011 by dwai

[Bubbles]

Well, if you read it in a book it must be true then.....

Of course unless it's not....

 

Your life, your choices.....

 

Let's come back to common sense.

 

I am no authority to choose what Daoists or Buddhists say about lust and love. To know it I have to read the texts. When someone says that Daoism doesn't find that lust is a problem, I read the text and I say "yes you are right" or "no this is not true". Without reading the book how can I know? I have not channeled Buddha nor Lie-tseu yet.

 

When it comes to my personal life, I am the only one authority on the subject, for sure.

 

edited for spelling

Edited October 7, 2011 by bubbles

[Harmonious Emptiness]

just to toss in my 2 cents again -

 

I think a distinction needs to be made between lust and sexual/vital energy. There is an obvious link, but I believe that when the word "lust" is used in English it is connoting a need, or at least perceived need, for sexual gratification.

 

When lust is spoken of in the Yellow Emperor's medical treatise, he says one should have a "moderate lust" as translated, but I don't think he's talking about lust in way that Europeans have come to see it, from the Christian perspective, as this evil drive that leads men to do evil things. I'm pretty sure he's just saying that one should have sexual potency, and moderate at that, in order to be abundantly healthy. If they have too much sexual potency then they are driven to needs and cravings, rather than just a feeling of health and vitality.

 

When the Christian hell-fire demon lust comes in, then love is obviously absent, but from the European perspective, sexual energy is not viewed as energy without its attendant desires.

 

These desires and cravings are deleterious, or thieves, from both the Taoist and Buddhist perspective, though Buddhism doesn't so much recognize sexual energy without it's attendant desires either, since Buddhism does not specialize in physical health as well. However, Buddhism does make use of this energy, imo, though not really caring too much what it was before the stage of transformation into spiritual elevation.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[thelerner]

I'd also add, if your not going the monk or nun route, desire isn't bad. Its clinging to desire that causes hurt. To me, clinging leads to the unhappiness and 'bad' karma, not the initial desire. If we can down grade our wants from Must Haves to preferences we'd be happier.

 

We see it clearly in the kid who cries because they must have Rocky road ice cream and any of the other 30 flavors can't stop the unhappiness. Yet as adults we tend to make do the same thing.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Not to be clingy, but man... I could go for a good lay right now

 

 

[Birch]

I liked that Kin Wilbur article about it - if I can find, will post. Something along the lines of (to paraphrase very badly) 'if it's going through your genitals it's sexual energy, if it's going through your heart, it's heart energy, if it's going through your knees, it's knee energy which is why you don't have knee orgasms'

 

He mentioned something about it (paraphrasing to the point of my own (mis?) understanding) being the clamping down or resistance which results in the sexual organs getting to 'drive' above and beyond any other expression. That has a lot of implications, not least of all some ideas about the 'drive to reproduce' which might have nothing at all to do with the wish to see a lovely new person incarnate, but a person that can do the things I didn't/couldn't. Sorry, it's a bit Freudian-sounding but I wonder...

 

HJNT, IMO everyone could do with a good lay from time to time

[deci belle]

Wow, K!

He mentioned something about it (paraphrasing to the point of my own (mis?) understanding) being the clamping down or resistance which results in the sexual organs getting to 'drive' above and beyond any other expression. That has a lot of implications, not least of all some ideas about the 'drive to reproduce' which might have nothing at all to do with the wish to see a lovely new person incarnate, but a person that can do the things I didn't/couldn't

That sure works for me!❤

[konchog uma]

I think like most things balance is key to the love/lust dichotomy. I like what harmonious emptiness brought up about "moderate lust". That is good general advice. There will always be extreme trainings and methods like those employed by renunciates, and some of them might never want to leak essence or even dare that their vagina lips part lest some qi leak out! lol

 

but for most people lust is natural, and tantra advocates mastering it by accepting it if i am not mistaken. So in short i think lust without love is empty and dangerous, and love without lust is kinda like what i feel for my grandmother, and not really appropriate to a sexual relationship.

 

@walrus & qlan xie: i hope you folks are really careful and respectful of the people and energies you come across on your path, because your viewpoints do not reflect balance in my opinion. Hehe some books are actually worth reading walrus, and do contain truth. But then again, im a "reader" so i'm biased. Just be careful is all i'm saying. Left hand paths are *notoriously* dangerous, whether you want to believe that or not.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Balance in all things Balance is what the Tao says about everything!

 

Knowing wherein the balance lies is acquired not from blindly following instruction, but for 'feeling' it for yourself and finding out, from experience, where your centers are.

 

 

Not everyone is balanced in an identical manner, yet we are all balanced the "same way".

 

Part of cultivating Qi/Chi is to balance the intake, storage, output, and flow. Balance in Qi/Chi, Taijiquan/Qi Gong, martial arts, and Yoga are not teeter totters, but cylindrical or disk shaped. we have 4 poles to balance, not only 2.

 

Each of the poles needs to be cultivated and balanced, but also allowed to flow and assert it's own natural place.

 

 

In sex, you should learn to breathe