WE

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Protector]

I just skimmed it but I found a mistake

Maybe it's not important, maybe it's for something else, maybe it's some level I don't know about but...

metal=fear and water=grief

[zanshin]

Thanks, good article.

 

I know water as fear and metal as sorrow or grief. How about applying creative destructive cycles to emotions or mind sets? Like fear (water) leads to anger (wood), but metal (sorrow) destroys anger.

[Protector]

I'm sleep deprived and all but my head is still working so let's go the full circle.

 

Anger Wood eventually will make you laugh at whatever you were angry at. A lot of joy will later make,in my example, love. With lot's of love you get scared for what might happen to who/what you love. Being overprotective and attached makes you sad that it's gone. Sad to the max, blame yourself and get angry and start over.

[zanshin]

It's Taoist psychology- and it works.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Kali Yuga]

I was under the impression that the concepts of hun and po were purely Taoist terms? or are these more of folk Chinese concepts which you're trying to work into Buddhism?

 

I find it odd that you associate Buddhism with these things, as Buddhism as a whole does not generally deal with concepts like these. Maybe you're trying to integrate the Taoist view of the body and organ-element-spirits with Buddhism into some sort of comprehensive system of the sort?

 

Still I find it a bit awkward when people try to do these things though. I generally like it better when people stick to a single tradition and the terminologies associated with it. The problem with cross tradition amalgamation is that there are differences we fail to see. for example, even though both traditions are mystical, and both heads of the tradition were considered "enlightened", I would not dare to compare Buddha and Lao-tzi.

 

In my personal experiences with Buddhist members on this forum, Buddhists have tended to have a much more rigid worldview than Taoists, and from the way I see it, it is probably due to Buddhism having a completely codified view of reality in which one should see it that way - they believe all of reality down to a science, which why they leave no room for error and believe they know it all. However with very taoist members here I've seen that this dogmatism and overly rigid worldview becomes markedly more absent, and much more conducive to fluidity, flexibility and looseness that I believe comes with the Taoist view of "silencing the mind, and cultivating the virtue of harmony". In short, I think it's the taoist way of "letting things go their own way" and "flowing like water" which puts it at a distinction with the very technical and precise worldview that one finds in Buddhism.

 

There is deep wisdom in both traditions although I would not dare so far as to put the two together and mix Taoist terminology with Buddhist terminology. I can understand that from a Chinese cultural perspective it is not uncommon to see both Taoist and Buddhist deities in homes and that there is a cultural acceptance of the two almost blending in with each other, but I just want to say that the two are not exactly synonymous which leads to the difficulty of mixing the two completely despite the two having overlapping in certain areas.

 

Are you taught under the Complete Reality school of taoism or maybe the Wu Liu Pai? Or are you a formal student of Buddhism? from my understanding these two schools have quite a mixing of these two paradigms however I am not so entirely familiar with them.

 

 

best,

 

Kali

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I've though about and used the elemental interactions in the following ways:

 

knowing that when someone is angry and excited, being earth can put out the fire, or if that doesn't work, being water or immensely flexible can control or redirect them.

 

Drive (wood) can control earth (tranquil)

Tranquil earth leads to metal (intellect)

water (openness, flexibility) can lead to drive (wood)

too much intellect (metal) can lead to lack of direction (water)

metal (intellect) can control or direct drive (wood)

 

too much thinking (metal) can be reduced by acceptance and flexibility (water)

thought (metal) can be controlled or directed by excitement (fire)

lack of direction (water) can be controlled by calm (earth) and reduced by planning (metal)

 

this is my feng shui Kung Fu. If only I had some credentials I might write a book about these applications (but we don't need more johnny-come-lately appropriators, in my estimation). However, they are useful for wu wei action.

 

 

I have to agree with Kali, fwiw, that these can be looked at through a Buddhist lens if you wish, but they are basic Taoist 5 elements theory, whereas Buddhism came from India which had different elements, I believe they don't have metal and they add air. So to think these go back to Buddhist theory would be categorically incorrect, though understanding them would certainly be useful for anyone on the Eightfold Path, imo. Perhaps you didn't mean to imply otherwise, but the OP did seem to read as though the five spirits were part of Buddhist philosophy..

Edited September 28, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Wuji108]

I have to agree with Kali, fwiw, that these can be looked at through a Buddhist lens if you wish, but they are basic Taoist 5 elements theory, whereas Buddhism came from India which had different elements, I believe they don't have metal and they add air. So to think these go back to Buddhist theory would be categorically incorrect, though understanding them would certainly be useful for anyone on the Eightfold Path, imo. Perhaps you didn't mean to imply otherwise, but the OP did seem to read as though the five spirits were part of Buddhist philosophy..

 

The Ayurvedic/Buddhist 5 elements are ether, air, water, fire, earth as opposed to the Taoist 5 elements which are wood, fire, earth, metal and water.

 

The two sets do not correlate directly, although there are, of course, similarities.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Wuji108

[zanshin]

oh, seasons and emotions are ways to see how wuxing flows. I found once I knew the cycles without looking at a chart a lot of patterns in life became apparent. I don't know the organ spirits without looking at a reference though, I think the article itself is true to Taoism, but application more Buddhist. Except for chakra correspondences, I don't think element have chakra correspondences.

[Owledge]

@Gerard

Very enlightening. Thank you for posting. But what I am missing a bit is more clarification on the different effects of deficiency or overabundance of a spirit, so that when I discover symptoms, I know which way the imbalance goes. Or did I misunderstand and it's all related to deficiency? Or some other form of disturbance?

 

 

 

...

too much intellect (metal) can lead to lack of direction (water)

...

lack of direction (water) can be controlled by calm (earth) and reduced by planning (metal)

...

Did you confuse it there? (Since metal nourishes water.)

Edited September 28, 2011 by Hardyg

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Did you confuse it there? (Since metal nourishes water.)

 

You're right, I did on the second one, but the first one there would be correct.

So the second should have been "lack of direction (water) can be controlled by calm (earth) and reduced by drive (wood)." Thanks.

 

Another one I was thinking about is how they say the extreme of yang leads to yin and extreme of yin leads to yang. Looking at the 5 elements: extreme of fire (excitement) leads to earth (calm), extreme of water (adaptation) leads to wood (drive). An interesting correlation. Though, I'm not sure the word "extreme" would normally be used here.

 

edit: Also, extreme of thinking (metal) ends up in wishy-washy (water) like procrastination. The extreme of wish-washy leads to drive (wood).

Edited September 28, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[三江源]

Fantastic sharing, Gerard, thankyou so much for posting.

[al.]

[Kali Yuga]

To me the concepts of the elements are all very relative. Each tradition has its own take on what everything is "composed of". To me I just throw out all the "five elements" or "four elements" thing and just focus on what is being said - the processes of the consciousness and its reaction to reality, and to other parts of consciousness as well. One is apt to become overly confused if you take what is said as being literal because different traditions have different views of the elements. Just take what you can use, throw out the rest.

[Owledge]

To me the concepts of the elements are all very relative. Each tradition has its own take on what everything is "composed of". To me I just throw out all the "five elements" or "four elements" thing and just focus on what is being said - the processes of the consciousness and its reaction to reality, and to other parts of consciousness as well. One is apt to become overly confused if you take what is said as being literal because different traditions have different views of the elements. Just take what you can use, throw out the rest.

Or just don't mix the systems. After all, they are merely tools, like math. The Chinese Five Elements system works great when you don't mix it with other stuff. It can be helpful for diagnosis, understanding or confirmation of what you already feel in your heart. So if you want to abandon the Five Elements view, I would say you can do that if you can listen to and follow your heart, senses and self.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard