Nationalism...of benefit, or the bane of society?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hehe, It is just a list of the astonishing sheer number of military engagements that USA has engaged in, one for every letter of the alphabet and more! What a great country!

You could argue that some of these battles were justified, and maybe some were, but most of that list is just America shitting on smaller country's [sorry I mean protecting its Interests] so sloppy can live the good life, enjoy the good achievements and feel proud to be an American.

 

I don't disagree at all!

 

Really, as part of my cultivator mentality I believe in looking at the ugly truth. If you don't look at it, you're never going to change it.

 

The sheer number of military engagements in the USA is not taught in schools.

 

Declassified intelligence operations carried out in foreign and domestic situations are not taught in schools.

 

For some things, if you don't already know that they are there, and you don't already know where to look, you won't ever find them.

 

I believe it's part of an American citizen's duty to be knowledgeable about these things. I also think it's part of a citizen's duty to "follow the money", to ask questions about where politicians' funds are coming from, who owns the news networks, why some people seem to get more face time than others, why certain policies seem to always have the lime light even when other policies could easily get by in the meantime.

 

So, yes, in the grand scheme of things America is totally imperialist and uses force to protect its investments and to procure profitable deals for itself. And if a freely elected democratic leader won't give us a good deal, we won't think twice about setting up a dictator who'll cut us a nice deal. And American people benefit from that.... a lot.

 

But again, in a cultivation sense, that doesn't change the very real experiences that, say, soldiers go through on the front lines. Those human experiences lead to learning and growth. They also lead to suffering and the ongoing cycle of pain. But the impulse to defend and protect, and the willingness to do what is necessary in tho moment in which it needs to be done that is demonstrated by people during times of conflict is admirable and something to be proud of.

 

And on the subject of nationalism, I think that is something to be proud of on ALL sides, by ALL nations who engage in that. Not the rape and the torture and the evil stuff that comes out of it (and to be sure, there is a lot of evil that comes out of it), but the good struggle and the growth. And I feel proud to be part of a group that wants to work toward a better future (ideologically, at least), and is willing to put our lives on the line to protect that future, and to protect our present.

 

And as part of that, (for me) critical investigation and a push for greater transparency is part of that pride. Because there ARE people who abuse power, who abuse their leadership, who exploit conflicts for personal gain. And I think in sullies the dreams of everyone on this planet who are sincerely trying to make the world better for everyone. So people who take advantage of war to torture, rape, profit, expand territory, etc etc etc, need to be discovered and dealt with. I don't want people like that in my group. People like that are not what I'm proud of.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[strawdog65]

 

I don't disagree at all!

 

 

 

And on the subject of nationalism, I think that is something to be proud of on ALL sides, by ALL nations who engage in that. Not the rape and the torture and the evil stuff that comes out of it (and to be sure, there is a lot of evil that comes out of it), but the good struggle and the growth. And I feel proud to be part of a group that wants to work toward a better future (ideologically, at least), and is willing to put our lives on the line to protect that future, and to protect our present.

 

 

 

 

Hi Sloppy!

 

I appreciate your well thought out response.

And am in agreement with you that there can be positive affects

from Nationalism. I think that Nationalism, any form thereof, is for the most

part not a positive influence on peoples of countries and the world. Nationalism

encourages the separation of people through differences. Think of it as a form of

racism, with the country you are from as the race you are considered, not a perfect

analogy but it works.

 

To get people to really see other people as their brothers and sisters, nationalism will need to go.

 

When the earth is seen from space, it is a small blue world.

 

Boundaries of nations and lands is established, but has no meaning if you see the world as one people, on one planet.

 

For Earth Society to move beyond the pettiness of the present, a one world, one people consciousness must come into being.

 

The future holds many challenges for the survival of the human race, and separation of people based on such outmoded thinking as nations, borders, ect, will only hold the people of this world back.

 

I sometimes wonder, if an alien race of beings came to Earth and saw the tribal nature of how we live on this one world, would they think we were intelligent at all?

Would it not seem entirely obvious that everyone should pull together to share and work towards a common good for all? Would it make sense to them that we have petty squabbles

over arbitrary lines of demarcation? That people are abused and mistreated because there is no profit to be made in actually helping them?

 

I fear that we would be considered infantile and self destructive in the extreme, and probably watched from afar , but not to be approached directly until we "grow up".

I just hope we can pull our shit together before the human race disappears all together.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi Sloppy!

 

I appreciate your well thought out response.

And am in agreement with you that there can be positive affects

from Nationalism. I think that Nationalism, any form thereof, is for the most

part not a positive influence on peoples of countries and the world. Nationalism

encourages the separation of people through differences.

 

Or you could view it is a means of uniting people through similarities

 

To get people to really see other people as their brothers and sisters, nationalism will need to go.

 

Do you have any brothers and sisters? Because I have a brother and sister, and we are all VERY different and we fight a lot over those differences. Both of my parents come from families that had 7 kids each (mix of boys and girls). Their differences have split the families apart, and their similarities have brought them together again, only to be split apart.

 

Now I'm not going to pretend like I know where I want to go with that. But I'm just saying, that even close familial bonds, or even the recognition that you are in agreement with many things does not prevent conflict.

 

Boundaries of nations and lands is established, but has no meaning if you see the world as one people, on one planet.

 

The trick for me is if you can have them when you need them, but not have them if you don't need them

 

For instance, I don't want my brother to go rummaging through my stuff. My brother doesn't want me rummaging through his stuff. We are separated in that sense and we have boundaries on "stuff", even though there is no real barrier between our things. But, say in an emergency, we wouldn't hesitate to get what we needed from each others' stuff, and we wouldn't ask permission, we wouldn't apologize, and we wouldn't hold it against anybody.

 

I don't see boundaries as inherently harmful. And I don't see no-boundaries as inherently ideal (in fact, it could get pretty dang problematic).

 

I sometimes wonder, if an alien race of beings came to Earth and saw the tribal nature of how we live on this one world, would they think we were intelligent at all?

 

You're assuming alien races are somehow more "ideal" than ours. Necessity is the mother invention, and many of the greatest feats of the human race have been born out of a desire to conquer (be it a people, a territory, or a huge rock floating in our orbit). It's just as likely that alien races have gone through our same struggles. It's just as likely that the alien race who visits us has been able to do so because of technology that it developed through necessity (survival in any number of particular instances).

 

Would it not seem entirely obvious that everyone should pull together to share and work towards a common good for all? Would it make sense to them that we have petty squabbles

over arbitrary lines of demarcation? That people are abused and mistreated because there is no profit to be made in actually helping them?

 

Well if they are a strictly opportunistic species who acts in their best interest first and foremost, then they may look at the people in power and say "why are you going out of your way to appease the masses which you could easily enslave and use to build up your empire and lead to conquest?"

 

I fear that we would be considered infantile and self destructive in the extreme, and probably watched from afar , but not to be approached directly until we "grow up".

 

Assuming a benevolent alien species who have the same ideologies that we are, and who aren't too much more advanced than us, because if they were significantly more advanced they wouldn't feel fear about watching us too closely, or care how "mature" we are.

 

I just hope we can pull our shit together before the human race disappears all together.

 

Of course another other option is that one side completely dominates and eradicates the other, with the remainder being completely subjugated (mentally and physically), so there is no longer a source of conflict.

[manitou]

To 'love one's brother as yourself' may not be referring to one's actual brother and sister.

[Birch]

Words invoke dualistic thinking, think of one thing and you suddenly imagine the opposite, think of what something is and think of something that isn't.

Imagine what it's doing to labels, titles and such

This one:-) if you get this one it has exponential catapult power :-) And it looks simple:-)

Sorry to add words to it Sinfest but this has to be underlined and emphasized and and :-)

[Birch]

Nationalism.

Edited: i think there were a lot of gaps in my construction and it didn't make it clear enough why nationalism (rather than nations) is pro-exploitative when it comes to transnational organisations. Not a very good argument. Sorry...

I guess if i can make a better one, I'll repost. I'm still on this "society as distinct from people" idea and i was trying to inflate it.

Edited October 3, 2011 by -K-

[Sloppy Zhang]

To 'love one's brother as yourself' may not be referring to one's actual brother and sister.

 

Well of course not

 

My point is that even in the most loving and close relationships there is conflict as well as love. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

I see people putting forward the "all love, no conflict, all one, no borders" kind of thought, and, well, I don't know if that's the best, most well thought out solution to the world's problems right now. Telling people to be "all one" and have "no borders" sounds like it's chaos waiting to happen!

 

I think it'd be far more productive if we got rid of the view that all conflict is bad, and the idea that any kind of separation is bad. Because some conflict is helpful and healthy. How can we be different but respect each other? How can we have borders, but realize that at the same time they are arbitrary and ultimately transitory? How can we cultivate the sense of proper timing so that we know when it is acceptable to transcend them, and when we must respect them as "real" and being there?

[manitou]

Well of course not

 

My point is that even in the most loving and close relationships there is conflict as well as love. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

I see people putting forward the "all love, no conflict, all one, no borders" kind of thought, and, well, I don't know if that's the best, most well thought out solution to the world's problems right now. Telling people to be "all one" and have "no borders" sounds like it's chaos waiting to happen!

 

I think it'd be far more productive if we got rid of the view that all conflict is bad, and the idea that any kind of separation is bad. Because some conflict is helpful and healthy. How can we be different but respect each other? How can we have borders, but realize that at the same time they are arbitrary and ultimately transitory? How can we cultivate the sense of proper timing so that we know when it is acceptable to transcend them, and when we must respect them as "real" and being there?

 

But don't you feel an evolution as well? We're becoming one more and more all the time. Instantaneous media does that for us, we see societies and feel the pain of people on the other side of the globe. To get out of the trees and away from the forest we have to get out there in space. I think the Evolution, or the Tao, or whatever we want to call it is about upward mobility. Although things seem like they're falling apart, this may be a necessary function in order for the oneness to take over. If we're standing out in space and all the little humans are like little points of light on the earth, the light all comes from the same Source. The rich little points of light are all clumped together in some areas, and the points of light without resources are scattered everywhere else.

 

Your point is well taken in that individual profit or trying to obtain for ourselves and our family, to the exclusion of everyone else, seems to rule the day. But the grand Evolution I see taking place (standing back from the earth) is that the Source works within each and every one to push the upward mobility. I'm not talking about earthly riches here, I'm talking about the voice that every person on earth is born with, the one that resides in their own hearts. Whether or not they choose to listen to the voice is their choice - but a refusal to listen will probably necessitate multiple additional lessons, whether it be in this lifetime or the next.

 

Maybe chaos is exactly what we need for a time. How else to shake things up and make it more equitable?

[Sloppy Zhang]

But don't you feel an evolution as well? We're becoming one more and more all the time. Instantaneous media does that for us, we see societies and feel the pain of people on the other side of the globe. To get out of the trees and away from the forest we have to get out there in space. I think the Evolution, or the Tao, or whatever we want to call it is about upward mobility. Although things seem like they're falling apart, this may be a necessary function in order for the oneness to take over. If we're standing out in space and all the little humans are like little points of light on the earth, the light all comes from the same Source. The rich little points of light are all clumped together in some areas, and the points of light without resources are scattered everywhere else.

 

Your point is well taken in that individual profit or trying to obtain for ourselves and our family, to the exclusion of everyone else, seems to rule the day. But the grand Evolution I see taking place (standing back from the earth) is that the Source works within each and every one to push the upward mobility. I'm not talking about earthly riches here, I'm talking about the voice that every person on earth is born with, the one that resides in their own hearts. Whether or not they choose to listen to the voice is their choice - but a refusal to listen will probably necessitate multiple additional lessons, whether it be in this lifetime or the next.

 

Maybe chaos is exactly what we need for a time. How else to shake things up and make it more equitable?

 

Eeeeehhhhhh..... yes and no.

 

As the saying goes, we're only as strong as our weakest link (in this case, the least evolved link).

 

Sure, there are a lot of people feeling the love, and getting into the whole "all is one" paradigm. And that's wonderful.

 

But that only works as long as everyone is on the same boat. If there's a group of people out there looking to exploit others... well, it just doesn't work!

 

I'd rather make a game plan based on how people actually are in the present, and try to figure out how to deal with that, than make a game plan based on how I hope people will be. If you don't get your hopes up, you won't ever be disappointed

[strawdog65]

But don't you feel an evolution as well? We're becoming one more and more all the time. Instantaneous media does that for us, we see societies and feel the pain of people on the other side of the globe. To get out of the trees and away from the forest we have to get out there in space. I think the Evolution, or the Tao, or whatever we want to call it is about upward mobility. Although things seem like they're falling apart, this may be a necessary function in order for the oneness to take over. If we're standing out in space and all the little humans are like little points of light on the earth, the light all comes from the same Source. The rich little points of light are all clumped together in some areas, and the points of light without resources are scattered everywhere else.

 

Your point is well taken in that individual profit or trying to obtain for ourselves and our family, to the exclusion of everyone else, seems to rule the day. But the grand Evolution I see taking place (standing back from the earth) is that the Source works within each and every one to push the upward mobility. I'm not talking about earthly riches here, I'm talking about the voice that every person on earth is born with, the one that resides in their own hearts. Whether or not they choose to listen to the voice is their choice - but a refusal to listen will probably necessitate multiple additional lessons, whether it be in this lifetime or the next.

 

Maybe chaos is exactly what we need for a time. How else to shake things up and make it more equitable?

 

 

I'm with you Manitou.

 

The chasing of money, stature, and most earthly material things

is what interferes in seeing the world as the One.

Everyone engaged in their own little rat race, never realizing they are the Rat.

 

Pulling back and looking at things Objectively, the realization of how small we are

by ourselves, compared to the Human race all together, knowing we are part not only of the Human Race, but part of everything that exists now, and will exist in the future.

 

The perspective you speak of is one of unadulterated Love and compassion for all things.

And the Awareness that we are part of that, whether we acknowledge it or not.

[strawdog65]

Eeeeehhhhhh..... yes and no.

 

As the saying goes, we're only as strong as our weakest link (in this case, the least evolved link).

 

Sure, there are a lot of people feeling the love, and getting into the whole "all is one" paradigm. And that's wonderful.

 

But that only works as long as everyone is on the same boat. If there's a group of people out there looking to exploit others... well, it just doesn't work!

 

I'd rather make a game plan based on how people actually are in the present, and try to figure out how to deal with that, than make a game plan based on how I hope people will be. If you don't get your hopes up, you won't ever be disappointed

 

 

Hi Sloppy.

When you speak of the "weakest link" please realize that what we consider to be weak in others, also exists within ourselves. We "collectively" are the weakest link. And even more so when we do not help to caretake our world through the practice of greed, while others knowingly suffer because of it.

 

Sloppy, would you agree that Profit and Greed are two sources of human corruption?

Would you agree that Profit and Greed are behind most of Human suffering?

I'm not trying to trick you....I just want to be clear.

Profit and Greed are whats wrong with the present system. Manufactured Scarcity, to create Profit, to satisfy the corporate Greed. It's a vicious cycle that we are inside of. The world does not need to operate this way. People mistaken believe they are free because they have limited mobility to do as the please within the boundaries of laws

and governance. The actuality is, there is no Free person existing on the material plane today. We are all bound by laws, and rules of being. I have heard the complaint of people who say something is socialism, or communism, or some other ism. The fact is

there does need to be a controlling body, I think we can all see that, otherwise there would be complete anarchy.

 

I have read about the possibility in the far future, of a Artificial Intelligence

becoming that controlling body. The only way to arrive at true equalness in regards to resources and food and who gets what, there must be an objective presence in control

of those things that would inspire Greed and Profit to begin again. Of course this Idea scares the hell out of most people today, even though computers already rule their lives in almost every aspect.

 

The Ideas being talked about are not some "feel good", "newage", or lets all just be

communist "hippies" (although I always thought Hippies were pretty cool) kinda' thing.

The Ideas of A Resource Based Economy are real Ideas, and as resources become more scarce and the world becomes a more sketchy place, we might just see some changes take place. Sloppy, you are young enough that your generation, will see massive change take place.

 

Being a realist...it's great that you are being pragmatic and not Idealistic, but being a realist, you might just want to keep the Ideas of other ways at hand as well,

because you really might need them.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi Sloppy.

When you speak of the "weakest link" please realize that what we consider to be weak in others, also exists within ourselves. We "collectively" are the weakest link. And even more so when we do not help to caretake our world through the practice of greed, while others knowingly suffer because of it.

 

Exactly. If I can think of a way to cheat people, then I know that other people can think of the same way to cheat them. The problem is that while I know that I myself won't cheat people, I don't know that others will act is such a kind regard. So I protect myself against those types of people, and when I make plans for something, I take the unscrupulous into account.

 

Sloppy, would you agree that Profit and Greed are two sources of human corruption?

Would you agree that Profit and Greed are behind most of Human suffering?

 

Yes, and I would also say that they are strong motivating factors for success and prosperity. Context is important! Ambition can be good or bad.

 

The fact is

there does need to be a controlling body, I think we can all see that, otherwise there would be complete anarchy.

 

I have read about the possibility in the far future, of a Artificial Intelligence

becoming that controlling body. The only way to arrive at true equalness in regards to resources and food and who gets what, there must be an objective presence in control

of those things that would inspire Greed and Profit to begin again. Of course this Idea scares the hell out of most people today, even though computers already rule their lives in almost every aspect.

 

Hm. Well that ain't exactly my cup of tea. Everyone would be equal if we were all slaves to a machine. You are merely replacing the current governing body, which you now perceive to be corrupt, with another governing body which you think will remain "objective" and therefor "incorruptible". I don't think it will work out in the way that you might want it to.

 

People have to take responsibility for their actions. We can't just blame the current "system", be it run by humans or run by a super advanced AI. We could all create a society where people are equal and aren't judged. But in order to do that, every single person would need to be dedicated to that. Because if just one is not willing to take that responsibility, then they will bring it down by taking advantage of the hard working attitude of others.

 

That is a heavy responsibility, and not everyone is willing to take that on. And I don't think we can reliably force that responsibility on someone to any good end.

 

The Ideas being talked about are not some "feel good", "newage", or lets all just be

communist "hippies" (although I always thought Hippies were pretty cool) kinda' thing.

The Ideas of A Resource Based Economy are real Ideas, and as resources become more scarce and the world becomes a more sketchy place, we might just see some changes take place. Sloppy, you are young enough that your generation, will see massive change take place.

 

Being a realist...it's great that you are being pragmatic and not Idealistic, but being a realist, you might just want to keep the Ideas of other ways at hand as well,

because you really might need them.

 

Oh don't worry about me. Just because I'm critical of an idea, and just because I don't accept some plan of action, doesn't mean that I suddenly forget about it. Context and timing is important. If the time comes when such a plan of action would conceivably work, I'm all for it. But there are some things I just don't think are feasible in the current time, or the foreseeable future (keyword being "foreseeable"- we don't always see what's going to come).

[strawdog65]

Nationalism is just another means of controlling a populace.

 

As long as all people are divided and see each other as enemies

or different therefore hated, we will always be faced with war.

 

The occupy wall street thread has some great links posted by Serene Blue,

about the people behind the scenes and who they are linked to and those corporations

and how they are linked to groups and controlling bodies such as the

Council on foreign relations and other "think tank" type groups.

 

The world works in ways we would think were to devious to be true.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Nationalism is just another means of controlling a populace.

 

Well there are some people out there who actually feel pride in who they are in terms of a country from a "bottom up" (as opposed to "top down"). That's not to say ALL nationalism is like that. That's not to say that someone who is "genuinely" nationalistic can't be exploited just the same as someone who is "manipulated" into being "nationalistic". But since we're cultivators here, I find the distinction on the intent at an individual level to be important.

 

As long as all people are divided and see each other as enemies

or different therefore hated, we will always be faced with war.

 

Again, I'm not so hot on this jump that people make of "see each other as different therefore hated". Me and my brother are different. That doesn't mean I hate my brother. Differences can be sources of strength and unity, or sources of divisiveness and antagonism. Dispelling our differences isn't a guarantee to make war go away.

 

The world works in ways we would think were to devious to be true.

 

Yup.

[gendao]

Hey, shaddup and do your patriotic duty by eating artery-clogging Freedom Fries, driving gas-guzzling Humvees (or tanks!), supporting the Patriot Act, voting only for CFR-endorsed mainstream puppets, kawk-blocking Palestinian independence against the rest of the UN and liberating Libyans from their direct democracy with carpet bombs!

AMERICA - FUCCKKK YEEEAHHH!!!

Edited October 4, 2011 by vortex

[strawdog65]

Hey, shaddup and do your patriotic duty by eating artery-clogging Freedom Fries, buying gas-guzzling Humvees (or tanks!), supporting the Patriot Act, voting only for CFR-endorsed mainstream puppets, kawk-blocking Palestinian independence against the rest of the UN and liberating Libyans from their direct democracy with carpet bombs!

AMERICA - FUCCKKK YEEEAHHH!!!

 

 

 

LOL!!!!

 

"Kiss me? Kiss me?!!

Kiss this, you smart ass Mother F@@ker!"

 

Team America

[strawdog65]

Well there are some people out there who actually feel pride in who they are in terms of a country from a "bottom up" (as opposed to "top down"). That's not to say ALL nationalism is like that. That's not to say that someone who is "genuinely" nationalistic can't be exploited just the same as someone who is "manipulated" into being "nationalistic". But since we're cultivators here, I find the distinction on the intent at an individual level to be important.

 

 

 

Again, I'm not so hot on this jump that people make of "see each other as different therefore hated". Me and my brother are different. That doesn't mean I hate my brother. Differences can be sources of strength and unity, or sources of divisiveness and antagonism. Dispelling our differences isn't a guarantee to make war go away.

 

 

 

Yup.

 

 

Ya got me there. All of it.

 

We at our hearts are self made.