[TTC Study] Chapter 74 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

Yeah. We have good translations for the Yiwenzi and received text. It's the MWD that I'm not sure about. Will edit them in now.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Stosh]

Bump

If the consequences of someones actions are arbitrary , one cant make the correct decisions even on ones own behalf.

One will inevitably screw up , not knowing any better. 

[Marblehead]

I screw up fairly often.  It is part of my original nature.

[Stosh]

Aye, In that, our possibilities are truly limitless.

[scribe]

I'm reminded of the Gauls in Asterix - the only thing they feared was the sky falling on their heads.

 

If people have no fear, even of death, should you celebrate them, or be afraid of them?

If people are afraid, especially of death, should you be content with their meekness, or exploit it to your advantage? What does it mean to a ruler to have a population that is afraid?

 

Without knowing more about the balance between philosophy and governance of the time, this is a tricky one for me, but at the same time it seems appropriate today. On the one hand we're told to be brave and courageous, innovative and clever. On the other hand, such values are also often looked down on if deemed 'against society'.

 

Good discussion. I suspect I'd glossed over this one quite a lot.

[dawei]

Yiwenzi interpretation:

 

"When people are not scared of capital punishment, what use is threatening them with it?" Normally, people are not scared of capital punishment because the prosecution of it is misapplied (to the innocent). The prosecution being misapplied, people do not care for their livelihood. The livelihood being not cared for, the king’s might becomes powerless. However, when the prosecution is on target, then the people become scared of capital punishment; being scared of it, they gladly care for their livelihood. Since they enjoy their livelihood, the capital punishment becomes a valid threat to them. Thusly, the people and the king become cooperative, and the ministers exercise caution.

 

I think the discussion of 'people scared of capital punishment' misses LZ's point... which is that there are too many laws, whether on target or not.  Being on target is not the point, IMO.

 

Received:

 

The people do not fear death; to what purpose is it to (try to) frighten them with death? If the people were always in awe of death, and I could always seize those who do wrong, and put them to death, who would dare to do wrong?

There is always One who presides over the infliction death. He who would inflict death in the room of him who so presides over it may be described as hewing wood instead of a great carpenter. Seldom is it that he who undertakes the hewing, instead of the great carpenter, does not cut his own hands!

 

This is closer with "and I could always seize those who do wrong"... this is LZ's point.  Each person is the law within.  If your offended the natural law would be for you to seek amends.

 

I want to share Mair's translation:

 

If the people never fear death,

what is the purpose of threatening to kill them?

If the people ever fear death,

and I were to capture and kill those who are devious,

who would dare to be so?

If the people must be ever fearful of death,

then there will always be an executioner.

Now,

To kill in place of the executioner

Is like

Hewing wood in place of the master carpenter;

Few indeed will escape cutting their own hands!

[dust]

Yeah.

 

Having looked at MWD more clearly, I have a suggestion

 

 

A

□□□□□□□，奈何以殺懼之也？若民恆是死，則而為者吾將得而殺之，夫孰敢矣？若民□□必畏死，則恆有司殺者 夫伐司殺者殺，是伐大匠斲也，夫伐大匠斲者，則□不傷其手矣

B

若民恆且○不畏死，若何以殺懼之也？使民恆且畏死，而為畸者，□得而殺之，夫孰敢矣！若民恆且必畏死，則恆又司殺者 夫代司殺者殺，是代大匠斲。夫代大匠斲，則希不傷其手

 

若民恆且不畏死     if the people are unafraid of death,

若何以殺懼之也     what is the use of threatening anyone with it?

 

若民恆且畏死        if the people are afraid of death,

則而為畸者           some should be made into examples, (exceptions/anomalies)

吾將得而殺之        who I must find and kill,

夫孰敢矣               and then who would dare (deviate)?

 

若民恆且必畏死    if the people must be made to fear death  (?)

則恆又司殺者        there should be a (prominent) executioner,

 

夫伐司殺者殺        ?

是伐大匠斲也        ?

則希不傷其手矣     ?

 

I can't figure out the last bit because of  伐  cut down / smite

I guess it is supposed to be  代  take the place of

[Marblehead]

If people have no fear, even of death, should you celebrate them, or be afraid of them?

I would say, respect them.  One never knows how far a person who has no fears might go.

[dawei]

若民恆且畏死        if the people are afraid of death,

則而為畸者           some should be made into examples, (exceptions/anomalies)

吾將得而殺之        who I must find and kill,

夫孰敢矣               and then who would dare (deviate)?

 

Quick comment on 畸者.

 

I see ZZ uses this and at least three different translations, in context of course:  Aloof, exceptional, singular [person]

[Marblehead]

I think the discussion of 'people scared of capital punishment' misses LZ's point... which is that there are too many laws, whether on target or not.  Being on target is not the point, IMO.

Well, I think you thought pretty well on this one.

[dust]

Quick comment on 畸者.

 

I see ZZ uses this and at least three different translations, in context of course:  Aloof, exceptional, singular [person]

 

I've been trying to figure out what is meant by either  奇  or  畸

 

It seems that most translators (Henricks a notable exception) haven't even bothered to try translating it!

 

Dictionary definitions for 奇:  odd, remainder, curious, queer, strange, outstanding, surprise, wonder

Dictionary definitions for 畸:  odd, irregular, extraordinary

 

I think that the translations you suggest from ZZ -- aloof, singular, exceptional -- fit fairly well with these. Something 'exceptional' is something that doesn't fit with the norm.

 

But there's another word in there which has given me thought:  为

 

則而為畸者

 

It doesn't just say 殺畸者 (kill the exceptions), it says 則而為畸者 -- there will be (则) made (为) exceptions (奇)

 

Or...?

[Taoist Texts]

則而為畸者

 

It doesn't just say 殺畸者 (kill the exceptions), it says 則而為畸者 -- there will be (则) made (为) exceptions (奇)

 

Or...?

wei stands here for a ancillary verb - to become or to appear or to be. " If any one becomes an exception to the general fear of punishments...."

 

 

Cf. 如徒知病之名而坐觀之，何以為奇？

 

Had they merely known the names of the complaints, but done nothing besides, looking quietly on, would there have been anything wonderful in them? 

[dust]

Yeah OK

 

Just thought that, as he's already talking about making examples of people, he might be considering making sure that examples are made regularly so that everyone maintains that fear

 

But yeah..no..

Edited April 26, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

" If any one becomes an exception to the general fear of punishments...."

No room for Anarchy there.

[Marblehead]

Yeah OK

 

Just thought that, as he's already talking about making examples of people, he might be considering making sure that examples are made regularly so that everyone maintains that fear

 

But yeah..no..

Hehehe.  That caught you right in the middle place, didn't it?

 

Life was tough back then too.

[dawei]

wei stands here for a ancillary verb - to become or to appear or to be. " If any one becomes an exception to the general fear of punishments...."

 

I think this is closer but no cigar yet as it doesn't seem (to me) to fit with the next sentence in relation to the meaning of the opening sentence.  Meaning:

 

If they are exceptions to the general fear of punishments (death), then they are the folks described in Line 1... so there is no point in threatening them.  But the next line suggests to do something.

 

Mair:

If the people ever fear death,

and I were to capture and kill those who are devious,

who would dare to be so?

 

Ta-Kao:

 If the people were constantly afraid of death and we could arrest and kill those who commit treacheries, who then would commit such?

 

So it seems to me, the exceptions are those who fear death but nonetheless still commit crimes.

[Taoist Texts]

So it seems to me, the exceptions are those who fear death but nonetheless still commit crimes.

if they fear death punishment why would they commit crimes?

[Marblehead]

if they fear death punishment why would they commit crimes?

I laughed.  Really.  People commit crimes for their own benefit.  If I hate someone badly enough to kill them then it really wouldn't matter if I could die because of what I was about to do.

 

And yes, the exceptions would be those who fear death.  They would likely not commit a crime that issued the death penalty.

 

If your conditions are so bad that death would bring just a little piece of peace then "Why not?"

[dawei]

if they fear death punishment why would they commit crimes?

 

Maybe "fear" is the wrong word here...   it may convey those that understand the nature and implication of a potential crime vs those who could care a less.  To be 'fearless' is sometimes nothing to do with lack of fear but complete stupidity to confidence.

[dust]

Just thought that, as he's already talking about making examples of people, he might be considering making sure that examples are made regularly so that everyone maintains that fear

 

But yeah..no..

 

I'm going to retract this.. slightly... ...and try again:

 

 

若民恆且畏死        if    the people    always   afraid   death/dying

則而為畸者           standard/and/however/if/so/already   this/can   make/become   oddity/exception

吾將得而殺之        I   (will)   get/have   this/can   kill

夫孰敢矣               so   who   brave enough ?

[Marblehead]

 

若民恆且畏死        if    the people    always   afraid   death/dying

則而為畸者           standard/and/however/if/so/already   this/can   make/become   oddity/exception

吾將得而殺之        I   (will)   get/have   this/can   kill

夫孰敢矣               so   who   brave enough ?

Can you do that with flowery words?

[Stosh]

I see y'all disagree about the wording 

I actually like this presentation as being the least interpretive ...

 

若民恆且畏死        if    the people    always   afraid   death/dying
則而為畸者           standard/and/however/if/so/already   this/can   make/become   oddity/exception
吾將得而殺之        I   (will)   get/have   this/can   kill
夫孰敢矣               so   who   brave enough ?

 

Isn't the meaning clear though, that its saying there is a limit to how much threats alone can do ? 

The state in keeping people from becoming desperate , limits how much mayhem people are willing to chance. 

The laws clearly play a role , but preventative measure is still important.  When the people feel the cause is important they will still risk their lives. 

So keeping people happy in the face of potential punishment preserves the state.

[dust]

Well whether it's clear or not, we enjoy debating, so will probably tend to present it as un-clearly as possible

 

2 things I found interesting

 

Firstly,

(and perhaps someone will tell me that this is meaningless, but...)

that we have the use of the personal pronoun I / me in the middle section, but in the next section, we're talking about a public executioner.

 

Secondly,

the construct 若... 则  --  if...then

 

 

若民恆且畏死        if    the people    always   afraid   death/dying
則而為畸者           then (standard/and/however/if/so/already)   this/can   make/become   oddity/exception

吾將得而殺之        I   (will)   get/have   this/can   kill

 

若民恆且必畏死    if    the people    always    must (be made to?)   afraid    death/dying

則恆又司殺者       then (standard/and/however/if/so/already)   always    have    public executioner

 

 

So, firstly, why I will kill? This is specific: it is not "we" or "someone" or "the ruler" -- it is "ME"

 

Secondly, if the second part means

 

"If the people must be made to be afraid, then (the standard/rule is that) there must be a public executioner"

 

then the middle part, translated in the same way, must mean something like,

 

"If the people are always fearful of death, then (the standard/rule is that) there can be (made/become) exceptions"

 

...

[Marblehead]

There are a lot of "if, then"s in the TTC.

 

Interesting you pointing out the word "I".  Who is the "I"?  Surely not Lao Tzu.  Perhaps the Sage/King?

 

Red Pine suggests that Heaven might be the executioner.  I don't know if this is supportable.

[dawei]

Red Pine suggests that Heaven might be the executioner.  I don't know if this is supportable.

 

I think that association is correct in regards to being the natural way... nature's executioner is heaven.  If people followed their hearts (ie: heaven's prompting) when they are wronged, they would confront the situation to make it right.