[TTC Study] Chapter 74 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 74

1. If people are not afraid of death,

2. Then, why use death to threaten them?

3. If the people were always left to be afraid of death,

4. And those who are nefarious,

5. We may arrest them and execute them.

6. Who would dare to commit the crimes again.

7. There are, always, specialized people who will carry out the execution,

8. If someone was substituted to carry out the execution,

9. Then, it would seem like someone was doing the cutting for a carpenter.

10. It would be rare without having someone getting his hands injured...!!!

 

*****************

1. 民 不 畏 死 ,

2. 奈 何 以 死 懼 之 ?

3. 若 使 民 常 畏 死 ,

4. 而 為 奇 者 ,

5. 吾 得 執 而 殺 之

6. 孰 敢 ?

7. 常 有 司 殺 者 殺 ,

8. 是 謂 代 大 匠 斲 ;

9. 夫 代 大 匠 斲 者

10.希 有 不 傷 其 手 矣 。

Edited October 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Pretty good, I think. Couple grammer errors and a spelling error but you did get the concepts covered.

 

The last four lines are a little vague regardless of translator. What is your interpretation of those four lines?

[ChiDragon]

Pretty good, I think. Couple grammer errors and a spelling error but you did get the concepts covered.

 

The last four lines are a little vague regardless of translator. What is your interpretation of those four lines?

 

7. There are, always, specialized people who will carry out the execution,

8. If someone was substituted to carry out the execution,

9. Then, it would seem like someone was doing the cutting for a carpenter.

10. It would be rare without having someone getting his hands injured...!!!

 

 

Annotation:

It seems like it was saying that:

If we let an unskillful person to do a job, then it may not be as efficient as a professional one.

Edited October 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Annotation:

It seems like it was saying that:

If we let an unskillful person to do a job, then it may not be as efficient as a professional one.

 

Pretty much agree. Don't know how this links back to the first six lines though.

 

Do you think this might have been a mild protest against capital punishment?

[ChiDragon]

Pretty much agree. Don't know how this links back to the first six lines though.

 

Do you think this might have been a mild protest against capital punishment?

 

Yes, I would think so.

 

The secondary level of interpretation

Lines 1 thru 6 said:

The people are born free; but the government are using capital punishment to cause them to die younger to protect its own interest.

 

Lines 7 thru 10 said:

If the government was using capital punishment to force people to go toward death, then the government will not be getting away with it.

[Marblehead]

Fair interpretation. Thanks.

[XieJia]

I interpret the Great Executioner and the Great Carpenter to be the Way of Heaven or the Dao.

 

So I would translate Lines 3 - 6 differently.

[Marblehead]

I interpret the Great Executioner and the Great Carpenter to be the Way of Heaven or the Dao.

 

So I would translate Lines 3 - 6 differently.

 

I have tried to do that but that is taking on a big assumption.

[XieJia]

not really sure what you meant by big assumption.

 

 

Would have thought that the Dao surely creating and parting things with their appointed time.

To do that in the Way's place is not wise.

 

I used the MWD B;

 

If common people do not fear death,

how then why threaten them with death?

To make common people fear death,

is the same as creating the unusual, (Creating those that kills)

I get in hand that of killing.

Who would dare?

 

I see where it is possible to see it as a big assumption, but people born; people die.

How is it assuming?

[Marblehead]

not really sure what you meant by big assumption.

 

Would have thought that the Dao surely creating and parting things with their appointed time.

To do that in the Way's place is not wise.

 

I used the MWD B;

 

If common people do not fear death,

how then why threaten them with death?

To make common people fear death,

is the same as creating the unusual, (Creating those that kills)

I get in hand that of killing.

Who would dare?

 

I see where it is possible to see it as a big assumption, but people born; people die.

How is it assuming?

 

Hehehe. You failed to understand me because I failed to make myself clear as to what I was referring to. My error.

 

The assumption is in equating the Way of Heaven (Tao) with the way of man.

 

The Way of Heaven is without purpose - the way of man is with purpose.

 

(This is why I have a difficult time talking about "the purpose of life".)

 

Yes, creation and destruction.

 

(Hehehe. I will only confuse myself if I continue.)

[XieJia]

Hahaha, Seems like I stop knowing English and its comprehension

I get what you mean (Confusing myself more in the process)

[dawei]

I interpret the Great Executioner and the Great Carpenter to be the Way of Heaven or the Dao.

 

I agree with this. There is a 'natural' course to life and the law of man is not really justice because it acts to replace the laws of nature.

[Marblehead]

I agree with this. There is a 'natural' course to life and the law of man is not really justice because it acts to replace the laws of nature.

 

Okay. Now I am with you guys a little bit more. Thanks.

[smallfish]

This passage has troubled me for some time also.

 

Takuan Soho's commentary on 74 shed's good light on it. I will not quote him here but rather share what i have gained from it.

 

My interpretation is that the "Way" or "Nature" has methods of weeding out or weakening or dispersing or doing away with the undesirable. The Karmic wheel returning what was once sent perhaps? Those that play with fire will get burnt, live by the sword/die by the sword/evil men die evil deaths....etc.

 

The first half seems to me to be directed at government, the second half is saying let Nature do its job. Stepping in as executioner or punisher does not bode well in the long run.

 

Old Lao Tzu must have had a heck of a time writing that one....LOL.

[Marblehead]

Old Lao Tzu must have had a heck of a time writing that one....LOL.

 

Hehehe. Saying what needs be said is troubling sometimes.

 

My interpretation is that the "Way" or "Nature" has methods of weeding out or weakening or dispersing or doing away with the undesirable.

Yes, That is evolution. Changes are going to happen. Adapt or perish.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. Saying what needs be said is troubling sometimes.

 

Beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder. Who are we here to insult the wisdom of the great ancient philosopher...???

Edited November 9, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Insults - No! But discussing our understanding of what is written is valid, I think.

[Brian]

I'm hoping that was tongue-in-cheek, CD, because it is the language of fanaticism -- cries of "blasphemy" often follow...

[ChiDragon]

Insults - No! But discussing our understanding of what is written is valid, I think.

 

I'm hoping that was tongue-in-cheek, CD, because it is the language of fanaticism -- cries of "blasphemy" often follow...

 

Yes, indeed it was. I do admit I do get carried away sometimes. However, I'll make sure that this situation will be rectified as part of my cultivation process. Peace...!!!

[Taoist Texts]

《尹文子 - Yin Wen Zi》The School of Names


大道下:
老子曰：「民不畏死，如何以死懼之。」凡民之不畏死，由刑罰過。刑罰過，則民不賴其生；生無所賴，視君之威末如也。刑罰中，則民畏死；畏死，由生之可樂也。知生之可樂，故可以死懼之，此人君之所宜執，臣下之所宜慎。


Lao-zi said: when people are not scared of capital punishment, what use is threatening them with it?
Normally, people are not scared of capital punishment because the prosecution of it is misapplied (to the innocent). The prosecution being misapplied, people do not care for their livelihood. The livelihood being not cared for, the king’s might becomes powerless.
However, when the prosecution is on target, then the people become scared of capital punishment; being scared of it, they gladly care for their livelihood. Since they enjoy their livelihood, the capital punishment becomes a valid threat to them.
Thusly, the people and the king become cooperative, and the ministers exercise caution.

This passage explains the first para. of chpt. 74, normally translated as:

 

The people do not fear death; to what purpose is it to (try to) frighten them with death? If the people were always in awe of death, and I could always seize those who do wrong, and put them to death, who would dare to do wrong?

 

The second para.

 

 

There is always he Great Executioner who presides over the infliction death. He who would inflict death in the room of him who so presides over it may be described as hewing wood instead of a great carpenter. Seldom is it that he who undertakes the hewing, instead of the great carpenter, does not cut his own hands!

 

 

deals with the notion of wuwei. The Great Carpenter and the Great Executioner are actual titles for the heads of department of construction and department of prosecution within the king’s government. According to wuwei the king should never become personally involved in day-to-day governing activities, so LZ reminds the king that to become personally involved in prosecution (and execution) is as dangerous as working on a construction site with an ax in hand. Accidents will happen.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for recalling that.  It had skipped my mind.

[3bob]

yep, thanks for bringing this string back up

[dust]

Maybe a bit of comparison?

 

 

Yiwenzi interpretation:

 

「民不畏死，如何以死懼之。」凡民之不畏死，由刑罰過。刑罰過，則民不賴其生；生無所賴，視君之威末如也。刑罰中，則民畏死；畏死，由生之可樂也。知生之可樂，故可以死懼之，此人君之所宜執，臣下之所宜慎

 

"When people are not scared of capital punishment, what use is threatening them with it?" Normally, people are not scared of capital punishment because the prosecution of it is misapplied (to the innocent). The prosecution being misapplied, people do not care for their livelihood. The livelihood being not cared for, the king’s might becomes powerless. However, when the prosecution is on target, then the people become scared of capital punishment; being scared of it, they gladly care for their livelihood. Since they enjoy their livelihood, the capital punishment becomes a valid threat to them. Thusly, the people and the king become cooperative, and the ministers exercise caution.

 

 

 

Received:

 

民不畏死，奈何以死懼之？若使民常畏死，而為奇者，吾得執而殺之，孰敢？常有司殺者殺。夫司殺者，是大匠斲；夫代大匠斲者，希有不傷其手矣

 

The people do not fear death; to what purpose is it to (try to) frighten them with death? If the people were always in awe of death, and I could always seize those who do wrong, and put them to death, who would dare to do wrong?
There is always One who presides over the infliction death. He who would inflict death in the room of him who so presides over it may be described as hewing wood instead of a great carpenter. Seldom is it that he who undertakes the hewing, instead of the great carpenter, does not cut his own hands!

 

 

 

Mawangdui:

A

□□□□□□□，奈何以殺懼之也？若民恆是死，則而為者吾將得而殺之，夫孰敢矣？若民□□必畏死，則恆有司殺者。夫伐司殺者殺，是伐大匠斲也，夫伐大匠斲者，則□不傷其手矣

B

若民恆且○不畏死，若何以殺懼之也？使民恆且畏死，而為畸者，□得而殺之，夫孰敢矣！若民恆且必畏死，則恆又司殺者。夫代司殺者殺，是代大匠斲。夫代大匠斲，則希不傷其手

 

 

 

There are numerous differences between YWZ's interpretation and the actual chapter in the WB/MWD, and some differences between WB and MWD-A. Though MWD-B and WB line up. I'm a bit more confused.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I'm a bit more confused.

Well, don't feel like the Lone Ranger.  I couldn't read any of it.  English please?