Inside or Outside

[lienshan]

Do you look at the Bagua from the Inside or from the Outside?

 

 

 

If you look from the Outside,

then do four neighbors have a whole top line,

and four other neighbors have a broken top line.

 

 

A whole top line symbolizes light to the right and a broken top line darkness to the right:

 

 

The Ogdoad had too eigth symbols.

Four frogheaded powers equal to light to the right of the moon,

and four snakeheaded powers equal to darkness to the right of the moon.

 

The frog- and snakeheaded were named and like the trigrams of the Bagua arranged in four counterpairs:

 

Nun & Naunet = primeval waters

Kuk & Kauket = infinite darkness

Heh & Hauhet = eternal space

Amun & Amaunet = quintessential invisibility

 

[Apech]

Interesting comparison ... care to develop this idea?

[lienshan]

care to develop this idea?

The Bagua symbolizes a moonwalk when seen from the outside moving counterclockwise!

 

The Ogdoad was worshipped in Khmun in Egypt between 2686 BC - 2134 BC

Not much is known but here's some in an PDF article about Philo 20 BC - 50 AD

 

The four pairs of the Ogdoad might symbolize new moon, first quarter, full moon, and third quarter,

but which one is quintessential invisibility, infinite darkness, primeval waters, and eternal space?

Edited September 29, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

You look at it from the inside out. Go back to DIO for that.

[lienshan]

You look at it from the inside out.

Oh I forgot tradition

 

So I try another comparition:

The Kings of the Zhou dynasty 1046-256 BC were entitled 'Son of Heaven' due to their 'Mandate of Heaven'.

The Pharaoes of the fifth dynasty 2494-2314 were entitled 'Son of Ra'.

Ra was a sungod becoming most important at that time, but declined at the end of the dynasty.

Maybe because the Ogdoad became most popular in the socalled chaotic immidiate period until 2025 BC,

when the dynasty was reunited under a strong Pharao again?

The earliest known Ogdoad source is a 2350-2345 BC pyramid text.

 

The connection between Ra and the Ogdoad can be considered an opposition:

 

The sun is not primeval waters but born.

The sun is not eternal space but limited.

The sun is not infinite darknes but light.

The sun is not quintessential invisibility but visibel.

 

That'll say an opposition of what's manifested and what's not manifested.

[Apech]

The Bagua symbolizes a moonwalk when seen from the outside moving counterclockwise!

 

The Ogdoad was worshipped in Khmun in Egypt between 2686 BC - 2134 BC

Not much is known but here's some in an PDF article about Philo 20 BC - 50 AD

 

The four pairs of the Ogdoad might symbolize new moon, first quarter, full moon, and third quarter,

but which one is quintessential invisibility, infinite darkness, primeval waters, and eternal space?

 

The site of their worship is usually written Khemenu and means 'City of Eight' a reference to the Ogdoad ... it was called Hermopolis by the Greeks because it was also the centre of worship of Thoth = Hermes (Greek) ... this gives link to the moon also which was sacred to Thoth.

 

Nun & Naunet = primeval waters >>> waxing quarter

Kuk & Kauket = infinite darkness >>> waning quarter

Heh & Hauhet = eternal space >>>> Full moon

Amun & Amaunet = quintessential invisibility >>>> New Moon

 

... I would suggest ... but I don't think I've ever seen this given authoratively. Will look it up when I have time.

[Apech]

Oh I forgot tradition

 

So I try another comparition:

The Kings of the Zhou dynasty 1046-256 BC were entitled 'Son of Heaven' due to their 'Mandate of Heaven'.

The Pharaoes of the fifth dynasty 2494-2314 were entitled 'Son of Ra'.

Ra was a sungod becoming most important at that time, but declined at the end of the dynasty.

Maybe because the Ogdoad became most popular in the socalled chaotic immidiate period until 2025 BC,

when the dynasty was reunited under a strong Pharao again?

The earliest known Ogdoad source is a 2350-2345 BC pyramid text.

 

The connection between Ra and the Ogdoad can be considered an opposition:

 

The sun is not primeval waters but born.

The sun is not eternal space but limited.

The sun is not infinite darknes but light.

The sun is not quintessential invisibility but visibel.

 

That'll say an opposition of what's manifested and what's not manifested.

 

I can see where you are coming from but I don't see the Hermopolitan and Heliopolitan views as in opposition but more complementary.

 

Heliopolis ... Atum (the complete one) emerges from Nun and creates from his own body Shu and Tefnut.

 

Hermopolis - the Ogdoad describe the Nun and then the intelligence of Thoth calls forth forms from the void with his voice and gives rise to Ra on the Island of Fire.

 

They are different images of the same process.

[lienshan]

They are different images of the same process.

I was surprized, when reading your post, but then found this 'papyrii from Dyn' quote:

 

"... that breath of life which emerged from the throat of the Benu bird,

the son of Re in whom Atum appeared in the primeval naught, infinity, darkness and nowhere."

 

Nun is in the Ennead cosmogony equal to the primeval naught, infinity, darkness and nowhere.

That'll say Nun is one with four 'characteristics'.

 

Nun is in the Ogdoad cosmogony together with Naunet one of four 'elements' as the four above.

That'll say Nun is one of eight; together with Naunet one out four 'elements'.

 

'characteristics' versus 'elements' seem to be the difference between the two cosmogonies?

 

and then the intelligence of Thoth

Isn't Thoth a later addition to the original Ogdoad cosmogony?

Edited October 3, 2011 by lienshan

[Apech]

I was surprized, when reading your post, but then found this 'papyrii from Dyn' quote:

 

"... that breath of life which emerged from the throat of the Benu bird,

the son of Re in whom Atum appeared in the primeval naught, infinity, darkness and nowhere."

 

Nun is in the Ennead cosmogony equal to the primeval naught, infinity, darkness and nowhere.

That'll say Nun is one with four 'characteristics'.

 

Nun is in the Ogdoad cosmogony together with Naunet one of four 'elements' as the four above.

That'll say Nun is one of eight; together with Naunet one out four 'elements'.

 

'characteristics' versus 'elements' seem to be the difference between the two cosmogonies?

 

 

Isn't Thoth a later addition to the original Ogdoad cosmogony?

 

The primeval waters are called Nun in the Heliopolitan cosmology. The name is spelled using the wavy/ zig zag line which is the sign for water and sometimes with pots indicating containers of water. So the name Nun refers to this water. In the Ogdoad it is a term used for the wateriness or fluidity of the infinite pre-creational state. In essence its the same term used in two slightly different but related ways.

 

The reason I said that I didn't think the two cosmologies were rivals is because if you read the Pyramid texts (the oldest extended religious writings from Dyn. 5) you find both the Ennead and the Ogdoad used side by side with no conflict. The Egyptians were very both/and and not either/or in their thinking.

 

I'm not sure when Thoth because central to Khmun ... but Thoth is a very ancient deity with references going back into pre-dynastic times. Obviously the name City of Eight suggests that the original cult related to the Ogdoad but this does not rule out Thoth as well ... in the same way as above ... its a matter of complementarity.

 

There is a relation between what you might call the Thothian view of reality and the Ogdoad. Just as there is between Ra and the Ennead. The Egyptians would have accepted both.

 

They even had more than one ultimate creator god ... without conflict ... in what is termed henotheism or sometimes monlatry (by Egyptologists). For instance Amen who originally was one of the Ogdoad in later times became 'top god' Amen Ra ... that is the hidden power behind the sun.

[lienshan]

[Apech]

That's a good example of what I was saying because Shu and Tefnut are the first born of Atum in the Heliopolitan Ennead and Nun and Nunet are from the Ogdoad ... they are used together ... and this is the very earliest writing.

 

Your idea of comparing this to the Bagua is interesting and I hope you explore it further.

[lienshan]

Your idea of comparing this to the Bagua is interesting and I hope you explore it further.

North-West are female positions and South-East male positions according to my previous post.

When so, then try look at the BaGua from an outside, north of the BaGua, facing south position:

 

 

Trigram Earth is North - Naunet (female = broken topline towards the center)

Trigram Water is West - Tefnut (female = broken topline towards the center)

Trigram Heaven is South - Nun (male = whole topline towards the center)

Trigram Fire is East - Shu (male = whole topline towards the center)

 

The BaGua is seen from above and the moon symbolizing direction is counterclockwise,

but the direction is naturally when the Bagua is seen from below: from the other side!

It's difficult to explain, but try imagine that the BaGua is painted on a window glass.

[Apech]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You might not care for this, but it might be interesting here since it is a discussion of similarities between Ancient Egyptian (African) and Ancient Chinese thought.

 

 

I'm not certain what to make of it without another informed opinion, but it does present some interesting evidence throughout

[ChiDragon]

Sorry! Mistranslation.

 

黎民(li min): all the people; many people; all the citizens

 

It does not mean black people.

 

Ref link: 黎

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sorry! Mistranslation.

 

黎民(li min): all the people; many people; all the citizens

 

It does not mean black people.

 

Ref link: 黎

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I figured that part would be the most quickly refuted, though it wasn't the whole entire argument, and to show all the possibilities:

 

the translations at your link for li were

 

many / numerous / black / dark / the aborigines of Hainan / a Chinese family name

[ChiDragon]

Here is how the bagua is oriented.

 

..............................................South

East West

...............................................North

 

 

Edited: To swap "East" and "West" position per lienshan's correction.

Edited October 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for the response.

 

I figured that part would be the most quickly refuted, though it wasn't the whole entire argument, and to show all the possibilities:

 

the translations at your link for li were

 

many / numerous / black / dark / the aborigines of Hainan / a Chinese family name

 

You welcome!

 

Yes, if one is not familiar with the language is very easily to get confused.

It can be translated as black, only with the correct compound characters.

 

Example:

黎明(li ming): dawn; the time of when light just appears.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You welcome!

 

Yes, if one is not familiar with the language is very easily to get confused.

It can be translated as black, only with the correct compound characters.

 

Example:

黎明(li ming): dawn; the time of when light just appears.

 

Well, if the people were actually black then wouldn`t it make sense in that context?

[ChiDragon]

Well, if the people were actually black then wouldn`t it make sense in that context?

 

No, they even used the wrong character, 们(men2), for people.

 

黎民(li min); all the people

 

黎们(li men) is totally incorrect. These compound characters make no sense at all.

 

Edited to add:

Besides, that is not the correct way to express "black people".

 

The correct way would be:

黑人(hei1 ren2): black people

Edited October 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Edited October 5, 2011 by lienshan

[Apech]

The traditional standard orientation from Egypt is from the perspective of standing (or lying backward) facing south. So that East is on your left and West on your right. In fact the words for East and West were the same as those for left and right (iabet and amenet).

 

I think I am right in saying that the earliest Taoist shamanism and the earliest Dynastic Egypt are contemporaneous (i.e. 3000 BC +/- a few hundred years). Any similarity -- and there is a lot not just the Ogdoad can be explained by postulating a common source which is the shamanism practiced by all peoples spreading out of Africa after the last ice age ... or if you prefer remembered knowledge from an older civilization now lost to us.

[ChiDragon]

..............................................South

East West

...............................................North

 

.......................................Your position

 

 

ChiDragon - If your position is as above (facing south) then is West to your right and East to your left.

 

lienshan...

I had the directions correctly oriented. The direction is counterclockwise with the East to the right. The fire(li2) should be at the west. The Chinese had the layout of the Bagua was done unconventionally.

 

Yes, you are right. My bad...

Edited October 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

I think I am right in saying that the earliest Taoist shamanism and the earliest Dynastic Egypt are contemporaneous (i.e. 3000 BC +/- a few hundred years).

Taoist shamanism is at least earlier than 6000 BC according to the exavacations in Jiahu:

 

More graves contained shamans without skulls but with a circle of eight tortoise shells instead of the head.

 

The Chinese had the layout of the Bagua was done unconventionally.

Why? Sounds strange to me that taoists worshipping nature worship an unnatural layout of the Bagua?

Edited October 5, 2011 by lienshan

[Apech]

Taoist shamanism is at least earlier than 6000 BC according to the exavacations in Jiahu:

 

More graves contained shamans without skulls but with a circle of eight tortoise shells instead of the head.

 

 

 

I was taking my date from Eva Wong "Shambhala guide to Taoism" Ch. 1 Shamanic Origins (3000 - 800 BC) ... you could trace pre-Dynastic Egypt back to even earlier (by many thousands of years) ... but I was talking about when they wrote things down or attributed themselves to earlier times.

 

I have been thinking about another eight fold arrangement of alternating gods and goddesses as found in the Canopic Jar Chest:

 

 

the figures facing each other are the Sons of Horus and on the corners if you look closely you can see the protecting goddesses (the one closest is Neith). The male figures are jars containing the main organs of the body and are associated with the cardinal points. The whole forms a kind of mandala of alternating male and female energies. This pic is of Tutankhamun's Canopic Jar Chest.

 

The Sons of Horus are sometimes related to the Pillars of Shu which in turn are sometimes called the Heh gods which originate with the Ogdoad. So maybe we have two arrangements which are the earlier primeval Ogdoad >>>> later Canopic Jar Chest ... its tempting to think Earlier and Later heaven (?).