Inside or Outside

[lienshan]

I was taking my date from Eva Wong "Shambhala guide to Taoism" Ch. 1 Shamanic Origins (3000 - 800 BC)

... but I was talking about when they wrote things down or attributed themselves to earlier times.

Eva Wong's date 3000 BC is dating Yu the Great and chinese writing wasn't invented yet.

The numbers were invented, so writing/reading was at that time a matter of numerology.

That's why I read/interpret the eight (even) tortoiseshells as a 'taoist' symbol.

Odd numbers were masculine; nine was both in Egypt and China the male ruler's symbol.

 

The trigrams and hexagrams were also originally made of numbers:

(the Shang number 5 looks like a butterfly)

 

 

 

I've looked at the canopic Jars but they seem to be a private Pharao 4. Dyn. invention.

Edited October 5, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Why? Sounds strange to me that taoists worshipping nature worship an unnatural layout of the Bagua?

 

lienshan...

 

You know what you are right....

 

PS...

All corrections had been made in this thread. Thanks....

Edited October 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

So here's where the party is...

We miss you in the DDJ forum Lienshan.

 

I don't think that Bagua is a 'Daoist' symbol;

 

It's that of the Ancients however.

 

Fuxi came up with that Bagua sequence you posted above; and King Wen's another.

 

The question is whether Yi Jing (I Ching) is Daoist or not...

 

Taking a purist point of view, I don't think they are.

Edited October 6, 2011 by XieJia

[Apech]

 

 

I've looked at the canopic Jars but they seem to be a private Pharao 4. Dyn. invention.

 

With respect Lienshan, the historical record from the Old Kingdom in terms of artifacts is very patchy. There is no way that an obscure Dyn 4 queen 'invented' the idea even though hers may be the first chest that has been found. The Sons of Horus are an integral part of the Egyptian system which was remarkably consistent over thousands of years (although the style of expression did change of course).

[lienshan]

the historical record from the Old Kingdom in terms of artifacts is very patchy.

I'm used to the very patchy historical record from Ancient China so no problem

 

The first historical record of the Ogdoad is the coffin text 76 without Amun/Amaunet!

Instead are Tenem/Temenet who represent something that has no valid english word:

'directionlessness' that'll say no inside/outside, no above/below, no left/right, etc.

The four Ogdoad pairs are describing the oneness of pre-creation using four nouns:

 

primeval waters, infiniteness, directionlessness, darkness.

 

 

I don't think that Bagua is a 'Daoist' symbol

Maybe the four nouns of pairs above match the four pairs of BaGua symbols

 

I read 'primeval waters' as 'only one kind of matter' maybe equal to the trigrams Earth/Heaven?

'directionlessness' is maybe equal to the trigrams Water/Fire that look alike when turned upsidedown?

'darkness' seems to fit well with the two earthly trigrams March/Mountain?

'infiniteness' could fit with the two heavenly trigrams Wind/Thunder?

Edited October 6, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

 

Maybe the four nouns of pairs above match the four pairs of BaGua symbols

 

I read 'primeval waters' as 'only one kind of matter' maybe equal to the trigrams Earth/Heaven?

'directionlessness' is maybe equal to the trigrams Water/Fire that look alike when turned upsidedown?

'darkness' seems to fit well with the two earthly trigrams March/Mountain?

'infiniteness' could fit with the two heavenly trigrams Wind/Thunder?

 

'darkness' seems to fit well with the two earthly trigrams Marsh/Mountain?

 

To my understanding, the Bagua was originated from the Yi Jing(I Ching) but later the Taoist took advantage of it and used as basis for the Yin-Yang concept.

Edited October 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Edited October 6, 2011 by lienshan

[Bubbles]

Here is how the bagua is oriented.

 

..............................................South

East West

...............................................North

 

 

Edited: To swap "East" and "West" position per lienshan's correction.

 

Dear ChiDragon,

 

FYI, the arrangement of trigrams you posted is Xian Tian Bagua (Pre Heaven)... so it is not oriented . It makes no sense.

 

Orientation is found only in Hou Tian Bagua (After Heaven).

Edited October 6, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

[ChiDragon]

Dear bubbles...

 

Please check this out.

Ref link: Bagua

 

 

PS...

I guess you haven't noticed that "South" was on top of the Bagua. That was what I meant by "oriented". Does it make sense now....???

Edited October 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

[ChiDragon]

1. I do not believe in confucian aftertiming fairytales!

 

2. The Zhouyi was kept at the royal Zhou court in the state of Zhou.

Only the royal Zhou nobles and their professional diviners had access to the book.

The Zhouyi became 'public' available after the Zhou fall in 256 BC.

The various commentaries named 'the ten wings' are written after that date.

 

The first three § of the Shuo Kua were among the Mawangdui silk Zhouyi commentaries.

The later § of the Shuo Kua are probably confucian Han dynasty commentaries.

 

3. Is §3 a confucian commentary?

 

1. I am sorry, that is your present belief.

 

2. ZhouYi(周易) is not the original version of Yi Jing.

 

3. What is this symbol §3...???

Edited October 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Dear ChiDragon,

 

FYI, the arrangement of trigrams you posted is Xian Tian Bagua (Pre Heaven)... so it is not oriented . It makes no sense.

 

Orientation is found only in Hou Tian Bagua (After Heaven).

 

Dear bubble...

 

FYI...

There is no such thing as Pre Heaven or After Heaven. It makes no sense.

 

1. Xian Tian(先天): Early day or early version

2. Hou Tian(後天): Later day or later version

 

3. Xian Tian Bagua(先天八卦): Early version Bagua

4. Hou Tian Bagua(後天八卦): Later version Bagua

[Bubbles]

Dear bubble...

 

FYI...

There is no such thing as Pre Heaven or After Heaven. It makes no sense.

 

1. Xian Tian(先天): Early day or early version

2. Hou Tian(後天): Later day or later version

 

3. Xian Tian Bagua(先天八卦): Early version Bagua

4. Hou Tian Bagua(後天八卦): Later version Bagua

 

Dear ChiDragon-Friend,

 

Xian Tian Bagua and Hou Tian Bagua depict cosmological and energetic principles.

 

I agree that most of the time, Xian Tian arrangement is shown with directions. Directional orientation of the trigrams in Xian Tian Bagua is a practice that traces back to Sung Dynasty but there is no basis for this practice in ancient commentary material. Shuo Gua gives directional attributes only to Hou Tian Bagua arrangement.

 

I could go more in depth but someone made it far better than I could:

 

Please read Steve Moore_ The trigrams of the Han -the inner structure of the I Ching_ The Aquarian press, 1989. Read particularly pp 88-119

My link

Have a nice day!

Edited October 7, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

The earliest source of the Bagua above is §3 in the 8th of the ten wings.

A warring states text named Shuo Kua attached to the Zhouyi (I Ching):

 

1. Heaven and Earth established the vertical position.

2. Mountain and Marsh reached the Qi.

3. Thunder and Wind were both hidden.

4. Water and Fire were not together.

5. They are eight wardens of archery.

6. The disagreeing lines are that which departs.

7. The knowledge of agreeing is that which comes.

8. The correctness of disagreeing cause the disagreeing lines.

 

天地定位山澤通氣雷風相薄水火不相射八封相錯數往者順知來者逆是故逆數也

 

1. 天地定位: Heaven and Earth are set into place with Heaven at the top and Earth at the bottom

2. 山澤通氣: Mountain and marsh are letting the air circulated through.

3. 雷風相薄: The thunder and wind are mutually reacting with each other.

4. 水火不相射: The water and fire do not interfere with each other.

5. 八封相錯: The eight trigrams(Bagua) are located complementary with each other.

6. 數往者順知: The numbers are going in one direction was known clockwise.

7. 來者逆是: In the opposite direction is,

8. 故逆數也: Therefore, the numbers are counterclockwise then.

 

Notes:

1. Heaven goes on top is because the top is attributed as the Yang position; and Heaven is the Yang-est trigram (3 solid lines), therefore it was assigned to the top Yang position.

 

2. Earth(3 broken lines) is the Yin-est trigram, therefore, it goes to the bottom(the Yin position).

Edited October 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Dear ChiDragon-Friend,

 

Xian Tian Bagua and Hou Tian Bagua depict cosmological and energetic principles.

 

I agree that most of the time, Xian Tian arrangement is shown with directions. Directional orientation of the trigrams in Xian Tian Bagua is a practice that traces back to Sung Dynasty but there is no basis for this practice in ancient commentary material. Shuo Gua gives directional attributes only to Hou Tian Bagua arrangement.

 

I could go more in depth but someone made it far better than I could:

 

Please read Steve Moore_ The trigrams of the Han -the inner structure of the I Ching_ The Aquarian press, 1989. Read particularly pp 88-119

My link

Have a nice day!

 

The reason that South was placed on top was because the ancients saw the Sun was the brightest and hottest at high noon in the south direction. It was considered that the South was the Yang-est at noon time. It has nothing to do with the period of the dynasties.

 

FYI...

Do you know why the Chinese carry out the execution, at 12:45pm, to chop the heads of the criminals....???

It was because that the Yang state is about switching over to the Yin state. So, it will make it easier for the prisoners on the way to hell, in a shorter time, with less pain.....

[lienshan]

I agree that most of the time, Xian Tian arrangement is shown with directions. Directional orientation of the trigrams in Xian Tian Bagua is a practice that traces back to Sung Dynasty but there is no basis for this practice in ancient commentary material. Shuo Gua gives directional attributes only to Hou Tian Bagua arrangement.

I think that this PDF link tells the story of the Bagua.

 

(It's about 8 MB and takes a couple of minutes to upload)

[Bubbles]

The reason that South was placed on top was because the ancients saw the Sun was the brightest and hottest at high noon in the south direction. It was considered that the South was the Yang-est at noon time. It has nothing to do with the period of the dynasties.

 

Xian Tian arrangement denotes perfection because each trigram is balanced by its counterpart in the arrangement. In the Yijing, there is no mention of directional attributes of each trigram as far as Xian Tian arrangement is concerned. The circular diagram appears only during Sung dynasty, and nothing in the Yijing supports the idea that this circular diagram was known when the Shuo Gua was written.

 

So what I am saying is that the directional attributes of the trigrams in the Xian Tian tu are probably a re-interpretation due to Shao Yung (Sung dynasty).

 

It can make sense to find a East-West (Li-Kan) axis in the Xian Tian arrangement because it can depict the course of the sun beginning in East (Li) and finishing in West (Kan): it implies that the Xian Tian is a vertical diagram, with Earth (Kun) below and Heaven (above). As soon as you put cardinal directions in it, you see it in a horizontal manner and associate it with geocentric compass directions, which contradicts its meaning and purpose.

 

Conversely, the Shuo Gua mentions explicitly directions for each trigram and that coincides with the Hou Tian arrangement. The directions are seen in the Luoshu and in all its applications.

 

edited for spelling

Edited October 8, 2011 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

I think that this PDF link tells the story of the Bagua.

 

(It's about 8 MB and takes a couple of minutes to upload)

 

I had already this essay, thanks anyway.

[Bubbles]

edited: wrong manipulation

Edited October 8, 2011 by bubbles

[lienshan]

edited: wrong manipulation

What's the opposite of 'wrong manipulation'

[Bubbles]

What's the opposite of 'wrong manipulation'

 

Actually the meaning was 'operation', 'handling'.

Edited October 8, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Here is how the bagua is oriented.

 

..............................................South

East West

...............................................North[/size

 

The layout of the trigrams was based on the geological climate location of China.

1. Heaven

2. Marsh(兌): There are lots of wetlands in the Southeastern part of China.

3. Fire(離): Fire represents the Sun. The Sun rise from the East.

4. Thunder(震): There are lots of thunder occurring in Northeastern part of China.

5. Wind(巽): It is very windy in the Southwestern part of China.

6. Water(坎): The water source of the Yangtze and Yellow rivers are originated from the Western part of China.

7. Mountain(艮): There is the Kunlun Mountain in the Northwestern part of China.

8. Earth

[Bubbles]

The layout of the trigrams was based on the geological climate location of China.

1. Heaven

2. Marsh(兌): There are lots of wetlands in the Southeastern part of China.

3. Fire(離): Fire represents the Sun. The Sun rise from the East.

4. Thunder(震): There are lots of thunder occurring in Northeastern part of China.

5. Wind(巽): It is very windy in the Southwestern part of China.

6. Water(坎): The water source of the Yangtze and Yellow rivers are originated from the Western part of China.

7. Mountain(艮): There is the Kunlun Mountain in the Northwestern part of China.

8. Earth

 

I have read that interpretation following the link you offered to another forum in an earlier post.

 

Would you mind giving some text or book reference that reveals the historical or archaeological background of it? Said in another way: where did you found this interpretation?

 

Thanks

[ChiDragon]

It would be very difficult for me to do this. You see, as I indicated before about Ci Kung, all my references are written in Chinese. They are not translated into any language. There are too many Chinese terms, characters and cultural differences which cannot be translated into a comprehensible format for the non Chinese speakers. I can only put them in my own words to explain to others. Even though I am fluent with the Chinese language; but it still took me many years to study the texts for a good comprehension. Unfortunately, this is the best I can do here to provide this kind of immanent information in my culture. What I am saying is that either you take my words for it or discredit them.