Inside or Outside

[Bubbles]

It would be very difficult for me to do this. You see, as I indicated before about Ci Kung, all my references are written in Chinese. They are not translated into any language. There are too many Chinese terms, characters and cultural differences which cannot be translated into a comprehensible format for the non Chinese speakers. I can only put them in my own words to explain to others. Even though I am fluent with the Chinese language; but it still took me many years to study the texts for a good comprehension. Unfortunately, this is the best I can do here to provide this kind of immanent information in my culture. What I am saying is that either you take my words for it or discredit them.

 

OK.

[lienshan]

In the Yijing, there is no mention of directional attributes of each trigram as far as Xian Tian arrangement is concerned. The circular diagram appears only during Sung dynasty, and nothing in the Yijing supports the idea that this circular diagram was known when the Shuo Gua was written.

 

So what I am saying is that the directional attributes of the trigrams in the Xian Tian tu are probably a re-interpretation due to Shao Yung (Sung dynasty).

I did a little research and arrived at:

 

A russian sinolog Iulian K. Shchutsskii claimed 100 years ago, that the first three sections of Shuo Gua (the 8th wing) belonged to Xi Ci part II (the 6th wing) which was confirmed by the exavacation of the Mawangdui I Ching version: There was a commentary named Yi Zhi Yi containing Shuo Gua's first three sections and the sections 5-8 of Xi Ci part II.

 

That'll say the later heaven trigram sequence of Shuo Gua section 4-11 and the section 3 text I have quoted ealier in this thread come from two different sources.

 

The Xi Ci II section 5-8 text is a confucian text with more sentences preceeded by the typical "The Master said:" so the trigram sequence of Shuo Gua section 3 is therefore too seen from a confucian point of view. The first four lines in the Mawangdui version:

 

天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction.

山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh reach Qi.

雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind are both hidden.

水火相射 Water and Fire are both emitted.

 

The first trigram in the lines are Father, youngest son, eldest son, middle son.

The last trigram in the lines are Mother, youngest daughter, eldest daughter, middle daughter.

The family-order looks strange to me if it is meant to express a confucian point of view?

Edited October 10, 2011 by lienshan

[XieJia]

Dear Lienshan,

 

Do you think having a Yi Jing Study group here at the Tao Bums will be beneficial?

 

Xiejia

[lienshan]

Do you think having a Yi Jing Study group here at the Tao Bums will be beneficial?

No, it's only the BaGua stuff that means something to most taoists.

[XieJia]

Yi Jing is much about the interaction between the trigrams inside the Bagua.

But true, I agree to your statement nonetheless.

[Bubbles]

The first four lines in the Mawangdui version:

 

天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction.

山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh reach Qi.

雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind are together hidden.

水火相射 Water and Fire are together emitted.

 

Yes, I have this also although in another translation. As you can see there is no mention of any directional attributes.

 

The thing is ChiDragon's interpretation may be interesting but to me at best useless.

 

1.First because there is a strong tendency in Mainland China to posit that all the material and practices ancient Chinese have developed are linked to China geographical features and therefore usable ONLY in China and that they can't make sense outside China which is a gross lie.

 

2. Second because the meanings I was given and use I make of Xian Tian Bagua is not linked to directions. To remain courteous, I would say that introducing directions in Xian Tian seems irrelevant. But I am not Shao Yung himself so, I will just say it is my 0.000..02 cents.

Edited October 10, 2011 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

No, it's only the BaGua stuff that means something to most taoists.

 

I beg to differ: There are two main traditions involved in the study of Yijing:

-the yili tradition which concerns the 'meaning and pattern' (Yijing text). This one was the scholar approach.

-the xiangshu tradition which concerns the 'image and number' (numerology, divination etc) This one was developed partly by illiterates who did not had full access to Yijing text.

 

One can be Taoist within either one tradition or the other. Why not?

Edited October 10, 2011 by bubbles

[lienshan]

Yes, I have this also although in another translation.

Here's an alternative translation:

 

天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction.

山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh reach Qi.

雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind are together thin.

水火相射 Water and Fire are together spread out.

 

 

Heaven and Earth establish the counterclockwise direction (from Heaven to Earth).

Qi in line two can be read as the trigrams Water + Heaven (inside Mountain and Marsh).

'together thin' can be understood as 'close together'.

'spread out' can be understood as 'most far away / opposite).

 

That'll say the Later Heaven Bagua but seen from the outside!

[al.]

Hi guys,

 

 

This link might be of interest:

My link

 

I particularly like the concept that the pre-heavenly bagua directions are defined by North/South/East/West, whilst the post-heavenly directions are defined by one's own position and dimensions, regardless of the compass.

 

Also, the argument as to whether these concepts first originated in the Han or the Sung dynasties- how much does this actually matter?

 

Innovation and evolution are important concepts in the Book of Change, no?

 

And besides, is it not foolish to be too sure of ourselves when it comes to things that occurred such a long time ago? How much information has been lost 'to the sands of time'? how much was never written down in the first place? Or kept in oral lineages?

 

I guess most importantly, how valid are these ideas for each one of us personally?

[ChiDragon]

Al...

You are a gentleman and a scholar with an open mind....

 

I guess most importantly, how valid are these ideas for each one of us personally?

 

The danger lies on: "how valid are these ideas for each one of us personally?" Personally may be one's beliefs fanatically with a high risk of misconception and fallacies. It's best not to ignore all other possibilities but with some considerations.

Edited October 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

Hi guys,

 

 

This link might be of interest:

My link

 

I particularly like the concept that the pre-heavenly bagua directions are defined by North/South/East/West, whilst the post-heavenly directions are defined by one's own position and dimensions, regardless of the compass.

 

Also, the argument as to whether these concepts first originated in the Han or the Sung dynasties- how much does this actually matter?

 

Innovation and evolution are important concepts in the Book of Change, no?

 

And besides, is it not foolish to be too sure of ourselves when it comes to things that occurred such a long time ago? How much information has been lost 'to the sands of time'? how much was never written down in the first place? Or kept in oral lineages?

 

I guess most importantly, how valid are these ideas for each one of us personally?

 

There is no problem with innovation and evolution but Baguas are not just for our personal likes and dislikes. Everyone is entitled to project on them what he likes but they are supposed to have some metaphysical knowledge embedded within them that has some consistency.

 

The fact that Baguas have several layers of meaning to be unveiled is a fact and openness is indeed required but not at the expense of some kind of logic.

 

More importantly, Baguas are also tools one can use for sensitive and precise purposes. As an example, you can find them in Luo pans. In the West, Luo pans are mistakenly confused with their most obvious use: taking directions with a compass; but they were before that time measurement tools, and they are also much more than that.

For all these use, one need to know what is what.

[lienshan]

The fact that Baguas have several layers of meaning to be unveiled is a fact

and openness is indeed required but not at the expense of some kind of logic.

Let's examine the logic of al.'s 'Yin Style BaGua' compared to the four Ogdoad powers:

 

Opening - Closing = Directionless?

 

Gathering - Dispersing = Infinity?

 

Raising - Lowering = Darkness?

 

Exiting - Entering = Primeval Waters?

 

The above is my picks when relating one Yin Style Qi pair to one Ogdoad 'pre-creation element'.

My main problem was to find a Qi pair relating to 'Darkness'

Edited October 10, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

For all these use, one need to know what is what.

 

Do you know which direction does the needle of the Chinese compass(指南計) is pointing to or referenced to....???

[Bubbles]

Do you know which direction does the needle of the Chinese compass(指南計) is pointing to or referenced to....???

 

South, I thought you would know.

[al.]

There is no problem with innovation and evolution but Baguas are not just for our personal likes and dislikes. Everyone is entitled to project on them what he likes but they are supposed to have some metaphysical knowledge embedded within them that has some consistency.

 

The fact that Baguas have several layers of meaning to be unveiled is a fact and openness is indeed required but not at the expense of some kind of logic.

 

More importantly, Baguas are also tools one can use for sensitive and precise purposes. As an example, you can find them in Luo pans. In the West, Luo pans are mistakenly confused with their most obvious use: taking directions with a compass; but they were before that time measurement tools, and they are also much more than that.

For all these use, one need to know what is what.

 

Hi Bubbles,

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you (although I don't know what Luo pans are though)

 

Trying to find consistency in Yi Xue is something I've been keenly applying myself towards. Often when everything seems like it just about fits perfectly, something goes awry- this always makes me think of the advice of one of my teachers when first studying the Yi Jing- don't try and fit everything together, it doesn't work, the meridians of the body, the acupoints, and the trigrams can't be pinned down so statically! The Yi Jing is like life- it doesn't all add up!

 

Nevertheless I try, because some part of me has a strong suspicion that the whole world really is a manifestation of 8. Yijing theory is not just human conceptualizations, it's grounded in the land around us, the wind and the stars, the turn of the seasons, the sound of thunder and rain, the morning stillness.

 

How we go about understanding this all is a personal matter. Of course we need the old texts, the accumulated riches of the past masters, but the relationship we cultivate with the natural world and the relationship we create with ourselves is surely of much greater importance- and these relationships are beyond both meaning and principle and image and number, beyond the logical structures we conceptualize.

 

I guess we have to strike the right balance between the scholar and the mystic in us, right?

[lienshan]

This link might be of interest: My link

 

Also, the argument as to whether these concepts first originated in the Han or the Sung dynasties-

how much does this actually matter?

It's to me much a matter of 'copyrights'! If I have anything to say of my own, then I write what I want in a way, so everyone reading is not in doubt, that it's my opinion without any authority than the logic of what's written - or the lack

 

But that is ofcourse very difficult when translating; e.g. Shuo Kua section 3:

 

天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction.

山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh share Qi.

雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind together is 'a forrest'.

水火相射 Water and Fire together is 'bow and arrow'.

八封相錯 Eight trigrams together is 'crooked'.

數往者順 To count the past makes sense.

知來者逆 To know the future makes nonsense.

是故逆數也 Therefore the counting of nonsense!

 

e.g. how to translate 錯 which means both 'crooked/bend' and 'a mistake'?

The first possibility indicates a circle and the latter excludes a circle?

 

That's why I regard 'Yin Style BaGua' more like a steal than an evolution.

It looks like the one with the BaGua 'copyrights' is Shao Yong.

Edited October 10, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

錯, an esoteric term in Yi Jing which means complement to each other.

 

Even a native Chinese who is not study the Yi Jing wouldn't know that was the actual meaning.

Edited October 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

South, I thought you would know.

Good, now you know why the Heaven(3 solid lines) symbol was placed at the top(Suoth). As I'd indicated before, South is the Yang-est position of the all because the Sun was the brightest and hottest at highnoon...

[Bubbles]

Dear al.

 

Thank you for taking the time to provide an answer.

 

My point is just to say that there is a difference between Xian Tian and Hou Tian beyond the trigram arrangement difference. I was taught that one of main characteristic of the former is that it is not directional.

 

I won't prolong this discussion endlessly because it has already diverted people from the main topic introduced by our friend lienshan.

 

If time permits I will try (this is not a promise) to write a last post on it giving a more in depth explanation without breaking the non disclosure agreement I entered with my teacher.

 

_/\_

[Bubbles]

Good, now you know why the Heaven(3 solid lines) symbol was placed at the top(Suoth). As I'd indicated before, South is the Yang-est position of the all because the Sun was the brightest and hottest at highnoon...

 

Sun is yang, Heaven is yang but Sun is not necessarily Heaven. This is exactly where I think things are mixed up between Xian Tian and Hou Tian. Sun (Li) stands for Heaven (Qian) in the postcelestial state (Hou Tian Bagua). It is true that Sun is the yang-est when in South, it is a physical reality. But when it comes to precelestial state (Xian Tian), attributing South to Qian is only a metaphorical association, not a geographical linked feature. Why? Because Xian Tian describes the cosmos in its original state.

 

We find confirmation of this in a lot of internal alchemy texts (neidan). First one has to work with Li and Kan (postcelestial, Hou Tian) in order to extract from them True Yang and True Yin and find access to Qian and Kun (precelestial state, Xian Tian).

 

The way you translate Xian Tian and Hou Tian ( which btw goes against the way numerous scholars from various fields from Classical medicine, Feng Shui to Alchemy, translate them) creates an intellectual obstacle. (Post you wrote, number 38 of this thread)

 

Since you don’t accept the term “Heaven”, then you can’t access to the metaphysical and cosmological meanings. It is ok with me but when you talk about having an open mind (post you wrote, number 60 of this thread) it should first and foremost lead to broaden the meaning scope of your translations.

 

Good bye, it is fun to have you as a sparring partner.

Edited October 11, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Sun is yang, Heaven is yang but Sun is not necessarily Heaven

 

I have never said that Sun is Heaven. I only said Sun was at the Yang-est state at high noon at the South(12:00 o'clock), at the top. Hence, that was why the Heaven trigram was placed in the South position when the ancients layout the Bagua for that reason.

Edited October 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

I have never said that Sun is Heaven. I only said Sun was at the Yang-est state at high noon at the South(12:00 o'clock), at the top. Hence, that was why the Heaven trigram was placed in the South position when the ancients layout the Bagua.

 

When you account for linking South to Qian (Heaven) by using Sun's position, you do that... Look at the cause consequence link you put in your sentence.. (I have put it in bold).. no?

 

I mean you use Sun's position as a medium to link South to Qian, so it implies that you make an association between Sun and Qian because they are both yang. Am I correct?

Edited October 11, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

When you account for linking South to Qian (Heaven) by using Sun's position, you do that... Look at the cause consequence link you put in your sentence.. (I have put it in bold).. no?

 

I mean you use Sun's position as a medium to link South to Qian, so it implies that you make an association between Sun and Qian because they are both yang. Am I correct?

 

That is correct. If you study each individual trigram, and both the Xian Tien Bagua and Hou Tien Bagua, you will see that Heaven is on the top of the Xien Tien Bagua and the Sun(Li trigram) is on top of the Hou Tien Bagua.

 

One cannot just jump into the Bagua's without understanding each trigram and thought know it all. If you are really interested in knowing each individual trigram, I'm glad to start a new thread to go over why the trigrams were drawn that way....

[Bubbles]

That is correct. If you study each individual trigram, and both the Xian Tien Bagua and Hou Tien Bagua, you will see that Heaven is on the top of the Xien Tien Bagua and the Sun(Li trigram) is on top of the Hou Tien Bagua.

 

I know that...

 

I will spell out my point again for the sake of clarity and to the best of my ability:

 

1.Xian Tian bagua represents the pre-celestial state of the universe. In this precelestial state, yin and yang are perfectly balanced: you can see that each trigram in the circular arrangement is balanced by its opposite. You have for each pair exactly, 3 yang lines and 3 yin lines. No dynamism, nothing that denotes coming or going, SO no directions.

 

2. Hou Tian Bagua represents a post-celestial state. It is our world. Hence you have all the down to earth features you want. You have seasons, you have terrestial magnetism etc,SO it makes total sense to have directions.

 

This is the general and basic principles of my understanding and this is the basis of my humble practice of some the arts that unfold from there.

 

I know you don't take it. So just leave it. I was just pointing out something that I find important to remember, but after all, I should say: let it be!

[ChiDragon]

Incorrect:

天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction.

 

It should read:

天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the position.