tummo

[Jeff]

 

The genuine practice of Tummo involves lengthy preparations whereby clinging (to various notions of self, from the gross to the subtlest levels) must first be addressed and then dissolved -- otherwise, the 'happenings' in the process can have a detrimental effect (for eg "look, i am on fire!!" ) -- an authentic initiate into this practice will have already disbanded the notion of a 'self', as such, will not come to harm.

 

 

Excellent point. Successful practice of Tummo requires one has reached the level of "calm or quiet mind". As an example, if one still experiences "anger", the mind is not quiet and they are not ready for the practice. The level is beyond "the watching of thoughts".

 

Best, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

You need transmission for tummo.

 

The "center channel" (dbu ma or avadhuti) is the whole arterial system, or more specifically the aorta. The two "side channels" are the venous system (roma or rasanā) and the spinal column and nervous system (rkyang ma or lalanā). A chakra is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves.

 

In the practice of tummo, the visualization of lower ends to the three channels is primarily used to focus body awareness in the subnavel area. Holding the breath, mulabandha and uddiyana bandhas force vāyu and ojas into the arterial system. The heart rate slows and the karmic winds suspend. Ojas has two stores within the body: the heart and brain. Thus there is the visualization of blazing and dripping.

[RongzomFan]

Excellent point. Successful practice of Tummo requires one has reached the level of "calm or quiet mind". As an example, if one still experiences "anger", the mind is not quiet and they are not ready for the practice. The level is beyond "the watching of thoughts".

 

Best, Jeff

 

Thats bullshit. The real prep for tummo is trul khor. Also requires transmission.

[thetaoiseasy]

man...

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[RongzomFan]

In the end, tummo is just an inferior facsimilie of karmamudra.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmamudr%C4%81

 

Also requires transmission.

[Jeff]

Thats bullshit. The real prep for tummo is trul khor. Also requires transmission.

 

Here we go again...

 

What do you think is the "result" and purpose of trul khor? Also, what is the resulting "state" of Trekcho? What does one need to "stabilize" before starting Togal?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

Here we go again...

 

What do you think is the "result" and purpose of trul khor? Also, what is the resulting "state" of Trekcho? What does one need to "stabilize" before starting Togal?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

Trekcho is a form of knowledge. Not a state or practice. It is 1 of the 3 wisdoms of rigpa.

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[RongzomFan]

I think if you get transmission from ChNN, you also get transmission for tummo, considering you get transmission for trul khor.

 

Although I'm not 100% on that.

[Jeff]

Trekcho is a form of knowledge. Not a state or practice. It is 1 of the 3 wisdoms of rigpa.

 

And part of that "knowledge" is the clarity of quiet or calm mind.

[RongzomFan]

By the way, the real kundalini method as described in the 100 verses of Gorakhnath etc., is more or less the same as described above.

 

The only difference is that they throw in kechari mudra.

[RongzomFan]

And part of that "knowledge" is the clarity of quiet or calm mind.

 

Not from the Buddhist POV. Quiet, or calm mind is shamatha, which only leads to higher rebirths as gods.

[Jeff]

 

Not from the Buddhist POV. Quiet, or calm mind is shamatha, which only leads to higher rebirths as gods.

 

Once again you are taking it out of context. Here are some words of CNN in "Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State" (pg 56) on the topic...

 

"The Sambhogakay is the self-perfected dimension of the manifestation of energy. It corresponds to the natural clarity of the base, liked to presence."

...

"the essence, nature and energy are called the "three bodies of the base." They correspond to the three aspects or characteristics of the nature of the mind: the calm state (gnas pa), movement ('guy ba) and presense (rig pa)."

 

Calm (or quiet) mind is the aspect of the "base" that is necessary for useful tummo. Also, for anyone interested, the "Six Yogas of Naropa" are recommended.

 

Best, Jeff

[C T]

In the end, tummo is just an inferior facsimilie of karmamudra.

 

 

It may not be that inferior since it was Milarepa's main practice, and the numero uno in Naropa's Doctrine of the Six Yogas.

 

When the mind has become luminous, the body too must follow this luminosity. And Tummo is very effective to bring the two into harmonic fusion, using sound (mantra) as the wind in the bellow. Body, speech and mind synchronistically working towards lasting transformation.

 

"The sun shines by day,

the moon shines by night,

the warrior shines in his armor,

the Brahmin by his meditation.

But the Buddha shines radiant, both day and night."

 

According to Lama Govinda: "The 'Yoga of Inner Fire' is therefore not concerned with the production of inner bodily heat - though this and a number of other extraordinary qualities may be created as a by-product. It is an often repeated misunderstanding to imagine that these practices were intended to enable the sadhaka to survive in the icy mountain solitudes of Tibet. Those who advance this theory forget that this yoga originated in the hot plains of India, where people would give anything to keep cool. The purpose of this yoga is therefore purely spiritual, aiming at a state of perfect inner unity and completeness in which all dormant forces and qualities of our being are concentrated and integrated like the rays of the sun in the focus of a lens."

[Cloud 9]

I found this site http://www.tulkulamalobsang.org/ and they are having a tummo retreat this summer.

 

Anyone have any experience with this guy? The website looks very commercialized, I wanna make sure he's legit.

 

I emailed their office to ask if its safe to combine qigong with tummo. I got a response saying there is no danger whatsoever, and it would even improve my qigong practice.

 

I know that even mixing different qigong styles is not a good idea, so tummo shouldn't be any different.

 

 

So does anyone have first hand experience with tummo (not book knowledge) who can share their opinions?

[Tibetan_Ice]

You need transmission for tummo.

 

The "center channel" (dbu ma or avadhuti) is the whole arterial system, or more specifically the aorta. The two "side channels" are the venous system (roma or rasanā) and the spinal column and nervous system (rkyang ma or lalanā). A chakra is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves.

 

In the practice of tummo, the visualization of lower ends to the three channels is primarily used to focus body awareness in the subnavel area. Holding the breath, mulabandha and uddiyana bandhas force vāyu and ojas into the arterial system. The heart rate slows and the karmic winds suspend. Ojas has two stores within the body: the heart and brain. Thus there is the visualization of blazing and dripping.

 

I see where you are coming from, Alwayson. You think you are a scholar. My understanding of a scholar is someone who has learned to correctly place big words that aren't truly understood into sentences in order to satisfy the conceptual mind while leaving the desire for true experiential knowledge and understanding barren and cold. It is often used as tool to gain power and control over others, and boost one's own self of importance and virility.

 

And it appears that that is exactly what you do. You play your little games, referring to arguments such as "it's a translation", or "he really didn't say that", or "you don't understand", or imply some falsehood and wait for the other person to blather or expose their intellectual weakness. And it is great if you can quote someone else who you believe is an authority on a specific subject... saves you from having to understand the propositions yourself and makes you look smarter. Isn't that what it's all about?

 

I've seen it myself all too often. It is found in most academic institutions. It's all intellectual posturing, ass smacking bullshit tactics to try to elevate the intellectual mind above all else. It's a good thing the intellectual/conceptual mind has to bow down and roll over before any samadhi can be realized. But then, that is only known through practice, isn't it? Such a powerful thing that has to be left behind..

 

No, you don't need a transmission for tummo to work, although most books explicitly state that you should have a teacher.

 

What you said is the absolute worst rendition of tummo that I have ever heard. It clearly shows that you have no understanding of the practice of tummo, yet here you are, spouting off again.. Scholar.. Have you even read any books on tummo?

 

Where did you get your defective interpretation, Alwayson? Oh, let me guess.. Does It come from Malcolm or something you read on the Dharma Wheel?

 

The central channel is not the arterial system. Nor is the purpose of tummo to slow the heart, suspending the karmic winds.

The desired outcome of slowing the heart is to shut down the senses, to temporarily keep the five hinderences or obsucations at bay. But that isn't what tummo is for. That is what other practices such as shamatha or pranayama are for.

 

Think about it for a minute. As you've suggested, if the heat is transfered through the circulatory system and you slow or shut down the heart, how is the heat going to circulate?

 

And, Tummo is about heat. Fire. You take the mixture of apana/prana blend in a little vayu from swallowing and compress the mixture at the navel. Then you take the heat produced by the mixture and take it up your central channel/sushumna to burn karma and blockages. It's not about stilling the winds. It's about purifying and burning obstructions and blockages, so at a later time if you want to dissolve winds into the central channel, you can. When the heat reaches designated points in the sushumna, the kundalini drops melt producing great bliss. But the bliss is a by-product. So is the heat. The purpose of tummo is to realize emptiness, and realize it quickly. 　

　

If tummo were a strictly physical phenmenon of compressing the 'vayu' and 'ojas' into the arterial system then you would always have to tense parts of the body in order to feel the effects.

 

That's not how it works.

 

I can "cook" myself by simply maintaining the proper posture and activating the lower tan tien. No compression, no tensing, no forcing anything into anything. I can also heat myself up quite nicely just by focusing on the third eye. There is much more to tummo than the physical compression of vayus and ojas into the circulatory system.

 

In some versions of vase breathing, you release the locks and tension after the kumbaka and you have achieved some heat below the navel, before you take the heat up the sushumna. If what you said is correct, how then does the heat travel up the spine without the tension of the locks and physical exertion?

 

Once you know about the lower tan tien, the cauldron, the vase, the bright orange ball below the navel, you can heat up anything you'd like. It does not require a circulatory system to transfer the heat. Nor does it require a physical interaction.

 

When the standard practice of tummo is done correctly, the flames do not follow the arteries, they go straight up the sushumna. You can see and feel the fire, the flames moving upwards. You don't visualize Blazing and Dripping, as you've indicated. It is the fire that rises up the central channel that hits places where the kundalini drops are normally 'frozen'. The drops melt and that causes the drops to drip and blaze. If you are proficient in the practice, you can slow the drops down as they drip down the central channel and sustain the bliss if you are into that kind of thing.

　

The problem with Malcolm's map and yours (apart from the fact that you don't understand the mechanics of tummo), is that it does not acknowledge the etheric/astral/mental structures that are enacted during practice. Tummo cannot be reduced to physical biological functions that occur by manipulating parts of the physical body. That is only the introductory learning phase. And if you don't believe me, read "The Bliss of Inner Fire" towards the end of the book. (link below)

　

Chakras are not meeting places of veins and arteries and nerves. There are no veins or nerves protruding outwards from the body, yet the chakras extend outward, past the physical body. There are no veins or nerves extending outwards from the chest as when the heart chakra expands to encompass a really large area. Granted, there is a correspondence between chakras and the specific locations in the physical body where there are nerve plexuses or organs, but that explanation is only for scholars who are attempting to convince non-believers that chakras really do exist. Tell me, Alwayson, where do the chakras go when you astral travel? Do they stay with the physical body or do they go with the astral body?

 

Why is it that you can open and close chakras by moving your hands inches away from the body, without touching the body? No nerves or veins outside of the body is there?

 

If you had ever practiced tummo for any length of time, you would know what I'm talking about. And if you are practising a form of tummo where you are going to pump your circulatory system full of ojas to point where your heart will stop, you are practising some weird unconventional practice that I have never heard about. I wouldn't want to stop my circulation when I have a fire burning bright on the inside, would I?

 

If you want to learn about tummo, the kundalini drops, the blazing and the dripping, I would suggest you read "The Clear Light of Bliss" by Gyatso. You should like that since the book contains the big word "Tsongkhapa" lots of times!

 

http://www.amazon.co...a/dp/0948006218

 

You could also read "The Bliss of Inner Fire" by Lama Yeshe.

 

http://www.amazon.co...a/dp/086171136X

 

But then, I'm sure you have your own books and you'll find some scholarly excuse to blow off these suggestions as 'inferior' or 'new age' or any of the other ridiculous arguments that you come up with. But for anyone else who wants to learn about tummo, or vase breathing or how to clear the central channel, you might want to take a look.

 

One word of caution. If you sit down in a meditative posture, take a deep breath, see a white moon at the brow and are quickly engulfed in hot flames, shut it down immediately and seek a teacher. Instant combustion is not just a myth.

 

And then you have the audacity to suggest that

alwayson, on 15 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

In the end, tummo is just an inferior facsimilie of karmamudra.

 

Not only do you not have correct understanding of tummo, you don't have correct understanding of Karmamudra. How can you say one is superior to the other?

 

Maybe you should go take a break from posting. Might do you some good to reflect on gross karma you are incurring here with all your ridiculous posts.

 

 

 

TI

[suninmyeyes]

Hey alwayson, whats up with you liking your own posts hehe ?

[adept]

He's insecure perhaps ?

[RongzomFan]

 

Once again you are taking it out of context. Here are some words of CNN in "Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State" (pg 56) on the topic...

 

"The Sambhogakay is the self-perfected dimension of the manifestation of energy. It corresponds to the natural clarity of the base, liked to presence."

...

"the essence, nature and energy are called the "three bodies of the base." They correspond to the three aspects or characteristics of the nature of the mind: the calm state (gnas pa), movement ('guy ba) and presense (rig pa)."

 

Calm (or quiet) mind is the aspect of the "base" that is necessary for useful tummo. Also, for anyone interested, the "Six Yogas of Naropa" are recommended.

 

Best, Jeff

 

 

"Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and

superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system

when he came to Milarepa. When Gampopa offered his realization to him,

Milarepa said, “As for the aspect of calm abiding in your practice, however good

all of this may be, it does not go beyond being a cause for rebirth in the higher

realms of samsara. As for the aspect practice of superior insight, all of this entails

the danger of divergence into the four deviations from emptiness. It may well

serve as a remedy for some portions of reification, such as clinging to real exis-

tence. However, since it is not able to cut through the entirety of clinging to

extremes, there is the danger that the whole complex of this excellent view and

meditation itself could turn into cognitive obscurations. Hence, if one is fettered,

there is no difference between being fettered by an iron chain and being fettered

by a golden chain.” Later, Gampopa said about this, “If I had not met the great

master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”"

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA58&dq=Center+of+the+Sunlit+Sky+Gampopa+had+perfected+the+view+and+the+meditations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYEIUebJKMqt0AGRsIHABA&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Center%20of%20the%20Sunlit%20Sky%20Gampopa%20had%20perfected%20the%20view%20and%20the%20meditations&f=true

[Jeff]

 

 

"Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and

superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system

when he came to Milarepa. When Gampopa offered his realization to him,

Milarepa said, “As for the aspect of calm abiding in your practice, however good

all of this may be, it does not go beyond being a cause for rebirth in the higher

realms of samsara. As for the aspect practice of superior insight, all of this entails

the danger of divergence into the four deviations from emptiness. It may well

serve as a remedy for some portions of reification, such as clinging to real exis-

tence. However, since it is not able to cut through the entirety of clinging to

extremes, there is the danger that the whole complex of this excellent view and

meditation itself could turn into cognitive obscurations. Hence, if one is fettered,

there is no difference between being fettered by an iron chain and being fettered

by a golden chain.” Later, Gampopa said about this, “If I had not met the great

master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”"

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA58&dq=Center+of+the+Sunlit+Sky+Gampopa+had+perfected+the+view+and+the+meditations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYEIUebJKMqt0AGRsIHABA&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Center of the Sunlit Sky Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations&f=true

Hi Alwayson,

 

Good to hear from you, this thread has been dead for a while.

 

I don't quite understand the purpose of your quote. Are you somehow saying in a roundabout way that CNN is wrong? Making a statement that his approach leads to a "lower" realization?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

Hi Alwayson,

 

Good to hear from you, this thread has been dead for a while.

 

I don't quite understand the purpose of your quote. Are you somehow saying in a roundabout way that CNN is wrong? Making a statement that his approach leads to a "lower" realization?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

 

Honestly, you will never understand Vajrayana.

[Jeff]

 

 

Honestly, you will never understand Vajrayana.

How am I ever going to understand your point, if you never explain why you always disagree (or deny) with everything CNN says? If you are going to disagree with a teacher/guru, it would be helpful if you would at least quote sutra or another recognized guru for your position. Just saying hundreds of quotes are "bad translations" is not useful (or right action).

 

Best wishes on your path,

Jeff

[RongzomFan]

How am I ever going to understand your point, if you never explain why you always disagree (or deny) with everything CNN says? If you are going to disagree with a teacher/guru, it would be helpful if you would at least quote sutra or another recognized guru for your position. Just saying hundreds of quotes are "bad translations" is not useful (or right action).

 

Best wishes on your path,

Jeff

 

 

You are hilarious. Have you ever received transmission or teaching from ChNN? Dealing with you is just a waste of time.

[Jeff]

 

 

You are hilarious. Have you ever received transmission or teaching from ChNN? Dealing with you is just a waste of time.

OK.

 

I have not recieved transmission from ChNN. I have only read and agreed with his books.

 

I don't understand why you find quotes from respected teachers that are specifically about the topic the group is discussing a "waste of time". But, I will try to honor your implied request, and not ask you any more questions to explain your logic/positions.

 

Best wishes on your path, Jeff