Was Jesus A Taoist?

[sean]

[Cameron]

I'll never forget when I asked Michael Winn about Christianity and Jesus in Asheville. I was wondering if he ever ran into Christian fundamentalists or people that basically say your going to hell if you don't accept Jesus as your savior and call yourself a Christian.

 

He said two things that impressed me. First that he thinks its really cool when Christians say Taoism and Alchemy are devil worship.

 

And he said when Christians say that Jesus is the ultimate power he asks " What about the Sun? Do you think that the Sun is powerful?".

 

They usually answer "Yeah, I guess the Sun is pretty powerful".

 

Cam

[GrandTrinity]

I think/know/feel all religions arose out of taoism (for lack of a better word--how about shamanism?).

 

From Tibetan Buddhism to Jesus Christ...the 10,000 religions are like branches and the roots are Tao. The trunk is education...and THAT is my axis mundi wold tree philosophy. =)

[Hoogar125]

First off, there is no proof that Jesus ever existed. He could just be made up like the one in other books. Second, everyone practices Taoism in some form or another we all try to stay healthy.

[minimoke]

First off, there is no proof that Jesus ever existed. He could just be made up like the one in other books. Second, everyone practices Taoism in some form or another we all try to stay healthy.

There is no proof that you or I exist. When I close my eyes all I see is nothing.

 

So I think that we can safely say that nothing definitely exists.

 

Bruce

[thaddeus]

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 20, 2021 by darebak

[Lozen]

There's a lot more symbolism to the cross than just in Christianity.

[taolpha]

I think/know/feel all religions arose out of taoism (for lack of a better word--how about shamanism?).

 

From Tibetan Buddhism to Jesus Christ...the 10,000 religions are like branches and the roots are Tao. The trunk is education...and THAT is my axis mundi wold tree philosophy. =)

 

Couldn't agree more with this. I myself have said similar in other forums. Looks like I'm going to have fun here.

 

/taolpha

 

This is a great article. This may be nitpicking a bit, but to call Jesus a Taoist is making the same mistake the author is saying Paul made about Christianity. The Tao just is, one doesn't subscribe to it and brand it.

T

 

I have had the same thought. Since I feel what all believe ultimately derives from Taoism in some fashion then all are following deviations from the path of Taoism. Titles in any way bug me but are a fact of life in this world. Was Jesus a Taoist? Jesus was a man who found enlightment and shared with all who would listen.

 

/taolpha

[Peregrino]

There are several interesting books on correlations between Christian contemplation, Taoism, and Zen. I especially enjoyed Thomas Merton's _Mystics and Zen Masters_ and _The Way of Chuang Tzu_. At some point Merton confessed that over the years he found himself more strongly identifying with Lao Tse than a lot of the Hellenistic philosophers (e.g. Aristotle, or neo-Platonists like Plotinus) who have been incorporated into the Christian tradition.

 

It's interesting to note that at least one of the Chinese translations of the Gospel of John interprets the term Logos (the main subject of the current Pope's controversial speech) as "Tao": "In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God" (Jn 1:1). John is also considered the most "gnostic" of the canonical Gospels, although by my reckoning gnosticism isn't always the romantic, enlightened, liberating path of esoteric wisdom that many make it out to be.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Peregrino

[cloud recluse]

Although its by no means a closed matter,I myself am still of the opinion that Jesus was a fervently nationalistic revolutionary hoping to violently expel the occupying Roman forces with a liitle help from Yahweh.I dont know whether he can still qualify as a Daoist or not,but I certainly dont think he was some peaceful serene figure drifting lovingly around Judea.He was a violent zealot,as were his disciples,who belived himself to be exclusively singled out to initiate holy war!

 

Now the reformulated,pacifistic,Rome - freindly version in the Gospels has certainly gone on to inspire many heart warming Sunday school stories for little kiddies,and the symbolism of the dying-reborn sun god remains psychologicallypotent,I admit.And there is wisdom to be found ,to a greater or lesser degree,in most scriptures.

 

But when I want Daoism,Id rather go to the Daoists.Fanatical monotheists dont do it for me.

 

Jesus only survives because of the violence he instigated,violence on a level that made his name & that of his family too famous/notorious to ignore.And so the folk hero myth was captured & repackaged into something more civil.If there had been no Jewish wars,there would have been no Jesus myth in any form-Pauline,Gnostic,nothing.

[Wayfarer64]

Interesting stuff to speculate on Sean!

This is indeed an open-ended topic.

I don't think JC ever thought of himself as anything but a Jewish Rabinical student/teacher. It seems many of his teachings sprung from Buddhist thinking -which was some 500 years along at that time. The stories of the 3 wise men got me to thinking that perhaps he was a reincarnated Buddhist lama that was sought out by monks to be blessed as the new incarnation- just as is still done in Tibetan Buddhism. But some say that trio's tale was a nod to Zaoroastrianism from Persia...anyway-

 

Having been raised in a town that straddled the silk road he was exposed to many systems of religious thought- Zoaroastrianism was very strong in those days and was a real contender for world religion status until Constantine chose Christianity to tie the Roman Empire together...I'm sure the young JC heard many stories and practices that were based in Taoism and Buddhism and Hinduism etc...

 

But in the end I think Cloud 's on the right track, with him being a Jewish patriot who wanted Judaism to clean-up its' act and be rid of corrupting influences-like the Romans!

 

So I think that what we have as Christianity now is based on stuff written at least a generation after the passing of Jesus into history. These writings were Roman friendly as Cloud points out-Paul and (I think it was) Joseph of Aramathia created the Gospels and became prostlatizers of great zeal...

 

Some say that the Gnostic Gospels are closer to the Christs' teachings than the current Christian Gospels.

If we could just click a "restore" function for history, where we could plug in a date and retrieve our past- undoing our mistakes at the same time- we could sort this out!

 

Hey Cloud we continue our "Roll"!- you must be brillient!!! we agree on so many topics-(LOL)

Edited October 6, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[cloud recluse]

 

... although by my reckoning gnosticism isn't always the romantic, enlightened, liberating path of esoteric wisdom that many make it out to be.

 

A VERY interesting observation,particularly considering the New Age 'discovery" of Gnosticism & their simplistic presentation of it.

 

 

 

There are several interesting books on correlations between Christian contemplation, Taoism, and Zen. I especially enjoyed Thomas Merton's _Mystics and Zen Masters_ and _The Way of Chuang Tzu_. At some point Merton confessed that over the years he found himself more strongly identifying with Lao Tse than a lot of the Hellenistic philosophers (e.g. Aristotle, or neo-Platonists like Plotinus) who have been incorporated into the Christian tradition.

 

 

Howdy Pilgrim ( I will never tire of saying that )

 

Interesting about Merton,that his experiences were perhaps better amplified by a Far Eastern model than the Middle Eastern one that his theology originated in ( though I do realise those distinctions may be a bit tricky)

 

Regards,Cloud

Edited September 28, 2006 by cloud recluse

[...]

I keep seeing the title of this thread and it is driving me just nuts... so here goes...

 

 

NO! JESUS WAS NOT A TAOIST!

 

 

(what a relief )

[三江源]

okay, I think I heard correctly last week when Michael W said that when Jesus spoke of resurrection he meant it literally.

 

I took from this that Jesus was a shaman. Which I like, as an idea.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi Cat,

 

Putting words into JC's mouth has been the norm since the beginning when the whole schmeer became a game of post-office! If its the Gnostics or the Joseph/Paul concoction or the laterday Popes who became "infallable" the guy has never cought a break. It's too bad he didn't leave any written works behind.

 

But if you do believe in the resurection, well, that is a cornerstone of Christianity. You may find an "entre vous" at the pearly gates!

 

A rabinical student/scholar would say shaman shmaman he was a Rabbi that may have traveled to the Hamalayan foot-hills to study or maybe had some home-schooling from errant monks.

 

In any case he must have been a pretty charismatic cat to have gleaned followers - be they revolutionaries or spiritual seekers, he had some tricks up his sleeve to keep their attentions.

 

Getting himself up again for another go at it didn't seem to last in any case.

Maybe we should ask George W. Bush- He claims God talks to him Every Night! Lets demaind the truth from our leadership! At least in this one area of concern...

Edited October 6, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[lotusbud]

I recall that Tom Chetwynd had some interesting info in his book "Zen and the Kingdom of Heaven".

 

He first retells how buddha became the Catholic St. Josaphat, and then goes on to speculate on how much influence eastern meditation traditions may have had on various sects during Jesus' time.

He makes much of the discovery of a fragment of the "secret gospel" of Mark. Which Mark assembled for "the use of those who were being perfected" and "being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries."

 

http://www1.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Secret/secmark_home.html

 

He then follows up with a history of Christian meditative traditions that the desert fathers maintained were handed down from the earliest days.

 

Compelling stuff with a lot to say to Christians who think of prayer without the aspect to training the mind and the heart.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi LotusBud,

That reminds me of the old Jim Morrison-( of The Door's) -Line ... "You can not petition the lord with prayer!" Which seems to be the gist of both many Catholic and Nishiren ShoShu forms of prayer and chanting...A form of concentrated mental energy -perhaps- only with a materialistic aim in mind.

It's too bad that the desert mystics are almost forgotten by the main-line church papas...Thanks for the reminders of "western" mysticism! We once had shamans too!

Edited September 29, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[Peregrino]

I tend to vacillate on the question of petitionary prayer. Sometimes it seems like a crutch, but at other times it really does seem to connect me to something greater than myself. Suppose it has something to do with whether or not the petition is made with an attitude of "spiritual materialism."

 

Raymond Sigrist, the Taoist who runs the site apophaticmysticism.com, has some interesting things to say on the subject. I'll re-post one of my favorite quotes from him here:

 

If you find yourself stagnating at some point in the future I recommend something that is not found in the classical texts of daoism: petitioning. This means petitioning a force that supposedly lies outside (or inside) your normal self. This could be visualized as a god, or could simply be characterized as your inner-most being. For some strange reason this practice is very effective, even for those of us who don't believe such forces exists. The practice probably sets in motion some kind of neurological dynamic that keys into the behavior of the natural world. Another way of saying it is that prayer works even if there are no gods to hear the prayers. (Not that I know whether or not such things exist.)

[Wayfarer64]

When I meditate on a question and throw the coins for a reading from the Yi Jing ( I Ching) -it may also be a form of petitioning. I seek an answer through the linkage between my being and the ever-changing cosmic order that seems to always maintain a grip on my reality. It has had the most profound affect on me. Beyond any and all other books I've read and studied.

My deepest connections with Taoist thought and practice springs from almost 40 years of such consultation and contemplation using several translations and meditation techniques. I feel a deep personal relationship to the Book of Changes and still experience amazing revealations when I delve into the way it adresses the questions I ask of it.

Carl Jung had a very interesting series of questions and experimental attempts to ask the Yi Jing about itself. I hope to find out more about those experiments and his interpretations of the results...

The 64 sonnets I wrote relating to The Book of Changes seemed to have been "channeled" through me and became a new source for reflection and contemplation that held a sort of direct communication back and forth through time ... A sort of personal response to the original creators of the ancient traditions.

 

But as to this thread-

If JC had an Aramaic or Hebrew translation/copy of the Book of Changes -which is a possibility, then I would say he could very well have been a Taoist practitioner. Such speculations are fun but just don't hold much water to me. I really do believe him to have ben a very Hebrew sort of thinker with a stronger Buddhist influence than a Taoist one...

It seems there are not as many Tao Bums who consult the Yi Jing as I thought there would be. Maybe I should start a new thread to get a fuller view of how da Bums are using such consultation as part of their Taoist practices ...

Edited October 6, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[sean]

Hehhe... I started this thread and then totally didn't get involved. Really enjoyed everyones thoughts so far though. Just to clarify the post title, I didn't intend it to mean was Jesus literally a Taoist, although that is an interesting thought, I more meant to ask, was Jesus' teachings more resonant with the philosophy of Taoism as we understand it today then with the religion called Christianity built out of his teachings?

 

Re: petitioning a higher power. IME this is an invaluable practice and the only way to tap into lineage energy on your own IMO ... surrender into it's stream. In a way it's just letting go of resisting the Truth if that's easier to swallow. The Buddhists call it tariki, "other power", as contrasted with jiriki, "self power". In Christian terms I think it's a distinction between grace and will.

 

It seems there are not as many Tao Bums who consult the Yi Jing as I thought there would be. Maybe I should start a new thread to get a fuller view of how da Bums are using such consultation as part of their Taoist practices ...

Please do. I'm particularly interested in hearing which translation(s) you recommend. I am about to pick up Henry Wei's The Authentic I-Ching (mostly because someone told me it touches on the Taiji tu diagram which I've been studying for awhile now, and I buy anything that talks about it )

 

Sean

[Wayfarer64]

A quick link to get the images up here on this thread-

 

http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/jindan/taiji_tu.html

[Nolipslameirrelevance]

Jesus' teachings/Christianity are developments of Judaism. At Judaism's esoteric core is the Kabbalah: there is a Christian Kabbalah, and I think it is fair to say that the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) makes a lot more sense in the light of the Kabbalah.

The Kabbalah has many points of correspondence with Taoism, as delineated by Aleister Crowley and Eric Stephen Yudelove (whose Tao and the Tree of Life I can thoroughly recommend). Although many people have tried to find them, there is no clear evidence of the two systems having any historical roots, so I think the similarities are due to "convergent evolution" and to their both telling similar truths about the same Universe. So at their esoteric hearts, I reckon, Christ's teachings and Taoism are probably very intimately related.

[Prince...]

Wow, you really resurrected a long buried post. I'm not sure if most of the people on page 1 are around anymore.

 

I disagree with a lot of what was mentioned. First I will point out that originally Christianity was called "The Way." Does that make Jesus a follower of the The Way? Yes and no. Jesus prayed, meditated, studied, taught, and healed. Whatever you choose to call this is what it is.

 

Jesus was not involved in any sort of nationalistic movement. Jesus said repeatedly that his kingdom is not of this world. Had Jesus had something against Romans, he would not have healed the son of a high ranking Roman soldier. Had Jesus had any desires of seeing an independent Israel, he would not have repeatedly called out high ranking rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

 

I am currently studying a school of Esoteric Christianity. I will say that there is discussion of the dantiens, we call them the sacred discs. It is heavily based in meditation and study of the scriptures.

 

We are concerned with Truth and we say there are many gardens that yield good fruit. We tend the garden that Jesus left us. Oranges are good, watermelons are good, and so are apples. If the Suffis wish to grow apples, good. If the Taoists want to grow oranges, good. We will tend to our watermelon patch, because this is what Jesus asked us to do, and we like it.

[gossamer]

I'd like to say that I'm a Christian Quaker ('Friend') and have been involved in Celtic Christianity, for many years as well.

 

However, I honestly believe that Jesus ("Yeshua") came to completely reform/rebuild Judaism.

 

And Yeshua came to fulfill very ancient prophecies in the Tanakh, or the Jewish Old Testament.

 

ALL of the early Messianic Believers WERE JEWISH, they were NOT "Christians", and NEITHER WAS Yeshua!

 

It was later that Gentiles started "Christianity".

 

At first these were Aramaic speaking Assyrians, from The Church of the East, that lived in what is now Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, and Iran.

 

The ancient Church of the East carried the Gospel far away on the Silk Road into India, China, and Tibet.

 

There was a kind of synthesis between Christianity and Daoism in China.

 

Here are some scholarly books that tell this story:

 

1. By Foot To China--Mission of The Church of the East, to 1400 by John M.L. Young

 

2. A History of Christianity in Asia (Volume 1) Beginngs to 1500 by Samuel Hugh Moffett

 

3. The Lost History of Christianity--The Thousand Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia---And How It Died by Philip Jenkins

 

4. The Jesus Sutras--Rediscovering the Lost Scrolls of Taoist Christianity by Martin Palmer

 

That A LOT of Lao Zi's teachings are VERY SIMILIAR to Yeshua's (Jesus') teachings in the Gospels, goes almost without saying.

 

Did one Faith inspire the other, or did they grow indepently of one another??

 

These are the real questions. And neither of these religions would probably admit it NOW,even if it WAS true!

 

But that there was a fusion between Daoism and Christianity IS AN HISTORICAL FACT, and is not speculation, or just some wild theory.

 

'The Jesus Sutras' by Martin Palmer is the best telling of this fascinating story.......if you've not read it yet, you SHOULD!

 

Just my two pence worth.

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited April 10, 2009 by gossamer