"This Shouldn't Happen Here"

[Ulises]

We can rightfully consider the McDonald’s massacre and say, “something like this shouldn’t happen here.” But why not stand over a fallen soldier and say the same thing?

 

This in a nutshell is the change—the shift in consciousness—that humanity is struggling to make in order to create a more holistic and peaceful world. How do we come to an awareness that killing and other forms of violence against each other, whether the random actions of a lunatic or the organized actions of a state, should not be taken for granted as “part of human nature.” There is, after all, an increasing body of evidence from neurobiology and evolutionary biology indicating that violence is a learned behavior, a cultural artifact, and not something inherent in our species; instead, we are genetically geared towards cooperation and altruism, something that we see every day in the world around us, as when hundreds of people drove up to thousands of miles to Joplin, Missouri, from all over the United States and Canada earlier this year for no other reason than to help strangers they didn’t know recover from a disastrous tornado.

 

One place to begin this shift is with our expectations. Expectations are powerful. They shape how we perceive and think about the world. They affect the choices we make and the tasks we undertake. They influence our conceptions of what is possible and what is not. And they also influence our perceptions. In short, we see what we expect to see, or perhaps more to the point here, we stop seeing what we expect to see.

 

~David Spangler

 

 

http://lorian.org/davidspage.html#gpm1_2

Edited October 7, 2011 by Ulises

[Marblehead]

That, Sir, is a very difficult subject to discuss.

 

Basically you are talking about the nature of man (the human animal).

 

I will agree that most violent behavior is learned.

 

However, I suggest that there are those who use violent behavior in order to get whatever it is they feel they gain from violent behavior.

 

The history of humanity has mostly been centered around violent behavior; wars and other forms of killing.

 

Is ther a way to change this behavior? I don't know. The child is raised by its parents. If either of the parents have been violent then that behavior will be learned. Even other members of our family as well as our peer will influence our behavior.

 

I agree that there are many who wish to put an end to violent behavior and I applaud them.

[Birch]

Mr MH,

 

A child raised by violent people could just as well turn out to abhor violence of any kind. I don't think anything is carved in stone Mr MH. It does IMO say something both about leaving children to be raised by less than a few people (see TaoMoew's timely 'Mother's curse' thread) and the stories that we are fed/feed into about 'our nature'.

 

I figure the former and the latter very much carve things out for us and may influence our behaviour much more than one would like to admit. This is IMO the 'conditioning' many 'paths' seek to rid a person of and many other 'bodies' (for want of a better word) seek to take advantage of. What does it say about our conditioning, if many 'spiritual' paths refer to the outcome of of a human on that path as being a loving, peaceful, etc etc human being AND which is also referred to as what we started out as.

 

So I'd personally make a distinction (sorry) between 'conditioned human nature' and actual 'human nature' which is what people come in with.

 

Y'know "if you want a mean dog, beat the puppy". Then we say the dog is a mean MTFR.

[Everything]

That, Sir, is a very difficult subject to discuss.

 

Basically you are talking about the nature of man (the human animal).

 

I will agree that most violent behavior is learned.

 

However, I suggest that there are those who use violent behavior in order to get whatever it is they feel they gain from violent behavior.

 

The history of humanity has mostly been centered around violent behavior; wars and other forms of killing.

 

Is ther a way to change this behavior? I don't know. The child is raised by its parents. If either of the parents have been violent then that behavior will be learned. Even other members of our family as well as our peer will influence our behavior.

 

I agree that there are many who wish to put an end to violent behavior and I applaud them.

The violent behaviour is part of human nature. Without it we woulden´t be. There are ways to work with this violent behaviour instead of against it. There have been many civilizations in the past where there was no records of crime, murder, theft.

 

Human nature doesn´t even need to change in order to have a world without violence. In the future, the violent people will not be seperated from the good. We will work together, towards eachother, yet respect our diffrences from time to time.

 

When bad man is surounded by bad man, he wont become good. Neither will good learn what bad man really is all about. There are many good traits of bad man. They have strength, they have loyalty, commitment, focus, dynamic, spontaneity, experience, etc. When all people fear killing and violence and disagree too much with violent people, the conscious evolution will just delay more and more.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

See? I told you it is a difficult subject to discuss. Hehehe.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Marblehead

[deci belle]

Why is the Art of War a revered classic in the taoist canon?

 

Contention happens. Why only view killing and gross violence as such. Faces and words are war. Thought is war. Fighting against war and killing is war and killing. It has to be.

 

Ever read the Bhagavadgita? Read it again.

[Marblehead]

Mr MH,

A child raised by violent people could just as well turn out to abhor violence of any kind.

 

You are very correct.

[Everything]

Why is the Art of War a revered classic in the taoist canon?

 

Contention happens. Why only view killing and gross violence as such. Faces and words are war. Thought is war. Fighting against war and killing is war and killing. It has to be.

 

Ever read the Bhagavadgita? Read it again.

Exactly... The Wisdom is behind violence even.

 

When people wake up, they wont actually go against their inner violent nature. They'll actually move freely with this violent nature.

 

Not being able to have food, you have the right to take food by force. There is nothing wrong with violence.

 

Who do you blame really. The person who stole a watch, or the very events in his life that led to his consciousness? The system is corrupt and is causing the violent nature within us to fall out of balance.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Everything

[Birch]

Difficult, doesn't mean impossible Mr MH. When i hear people defending their violence i have to wonder what's at stake. Conflict, yes, due to differences in ways of getting needs met. Agreed we're in a violent system. Always wary about justifications concerning "nature" within contrived circumstances that seek to justify the existence of said contrived circumstances.

"we had to chain that dog up he's so mean"

[Marblehead]

Yes Dear.

[Birch]

You were taught the same thing as my old Dad Mr MH. I think his Dad taught him. He explained it to me:-)

It's cute Mr MH but i doubt it gets us anywhere :-) "yes dear" :-p

And if you think about it a bit, it might be pretty uncool...

[Marblehead]

You were taught the same thing as my old Dad Mr MH. I think his Dad taught him. He explained it to me:-)

It's cute Mr MH but i doubt it gets us anywhere :-) "yes dear" :-p

And if you think about it a bit, it might be pretty uncool...

 

Yeah, well, it was intended to be funny.

 

But yes, I did learn how to say that - from first hand experience. (Remember, I have been married three times.)

 

Personally, I always view violence as an absolute last resort.

 

There are many alternatives to violence. One is to just walk away (if at all possible) and the other is to continue discussing whatever in hopes of attaining an understanding.

 

But the fact remains that the history of man is filled with violence; on the personal level, cultural, race, religion, and national levels.

 

No, this is not saying that all people engage in violent acts. I would suggest that it is really only a small minority. But one act leads to another which leads to even non-violent people being sucked into conducting violent acts, either for defense or for revenge.

 

And even though it might seem that violence is becoming more common we have to remember that the reporting of it is becoming more popular as well. So it may just seem that there is more but in reality it is just that more is being reported.

 

I still do hold to the understanding that nearly all violent behavior is learned. But as you pointed out, even though a child have grown up in a violent environment doesn't necessarily mean that the child will have a violent behavior. This is because we have choices in life. We can choose to be non-violent.

 

I think that I can state a generalization here: Non-violent tend to live longer and have a more peaceful life than do violent people.

 

I think another generalization can be: Violent people choose violence because it is the only way they can satisfy their desires, for whatever the reason.

[Audiohealing]

How will we know who and what is good if there is no bad? You can't have one without the other just like you can't have a snake without a tail.

[Marblehead]

How will we know who and what is good if there is no bad? You can't have one without the other just like you can't have a snake without a tail.

 

Excellent and fair question. However,

 

I think it is possible to be beyond dualities, just be, flowing with the flow.

 

And, of course, we have the Nietzschian concept of being beyond good and evil.

 

(But then, neither of these two negate the possible need for violent behavior. It just negates the idea that a violent act is always bad.)

[Birch]

"(Remember, I have been married three times.)"

 

Not to me you haven't:-)

[zanshin]

Without capacity for violence, peace can be submission rather than a choice. I don't think it is learned though, part of human nature. If it wasn't what did we learn it from anyway? Very young children try out hitting, kicking, wrestling, even biting, although no one did those things to them. Fight or flight response very deeply hard wired into our brains. So if that mean dog slips his chain and attacks a kid. what's the right course of action? Do you reason with the dog, stand back and accept it's mean dog nature, or would you try to pull it off hit it in the head, shoot it? Fortunately in most circumstances we are also capable of using other ways to communicate than violence.

[Marblehead]

 

Not to me you haven't:-)

 

This is true. Not even sure I ever kissed you.

 

(I'm not sure of a lot of things. Hehehe.)

[Marblehead]

Hi Zanshin,

 

Just letting you know I read your post. I won't respond as I already get into enough trouble on my own.

[zanshin]

very nice, being able to stay calm when a conflict situation seems to be winding up and the primitive fight or flight brain wants to kick in I think is a very difficult and useful skill.

 

I've been in situations where guys have been yelling at me and stayed calm, helps to have a weird sense of humor and secretly find it funny. But fair chance I could outfight them and definitely could outflight, so really not too scary, confidence in your ability to respond to violence if necessary can offset the innate panic response to strike back or run.

[Marblehead]

... confidence in your ability ...

 

Yep. If such is true one rarely, if ever, needs resort to violence and especially never initiate it.