[TTC Study] Chapter 77 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Edited October 7, 2011 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 77

1. The fundamental principles，

2. Is like pulling the string on a bow.

3. If the tension on the string is too high, then decrease it.

4. If it is too low, then increase it.

5. If there is excess, then diminish it.

6. If there is a deficiency, then replenish it.

7. The basic principle,

8. Remove the excess to replenish the deficiency.

9. The way of humanity was not so.

10. It takes away where there is a deficiency to give where there is plenty.

11. Who would offer their excess to the poor in the world?

12. Only those who are virtuous.

 

第七十七章

1. 天 之 道

2. 其 猶 張 弓 與 ?

3. 高 者 抑 之 ,

4. 下 者 舉 之 ;

5. 有 餘 者 損 之 ,

6. 不 足 者 補 之 。

7. 天 之 道，

8。　損 有 餘 而 補 不 足 。

9. 人 之 道 則 不 然 :

10.損 不 足 以 奉 有 餘 。

11.孰 能 有 餘 以 奉 天 下 ?

12.唯 有 道 者 。

 

******* Out of context *******

13.是 以 聖 人 為 而 不 恃 ，

14.功 成 而 不 處 ,

15.其 不 欲 見 賢 !

[XieJia]

Lol, seems like you are on tight schedule MH .

I am sure we will do fine until 81...

Although do wish to see Dawei's and Lienshan's insight aswell.

 

The Way of Heaven, The Way of Man...

Virtue.

 

Chidragon, imho I do think the shengren 聖人 (sage) and the no-dwelling have some relevant context.

Would you mind sharing with us why you rule them out?

Edited October 8, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

Lol, seems like you are on tight schedule MH .

I am sure we will do fine until 81...

Although do wish to see Dawei's and Lienshan's insight aswell.

 

The Way of Heaven, The Way of Man...

Virtue.

 

Chidragon, imho I do think the shengren 聖人 (sage) and the no-dwelling have some relevant context.

Would you mind sharing with us why you rule them out?

 

Not really on a tight schedule. I'm not worried about this sub-forum. I now am concerned for the Chuang Tzu sub-forum as I did say I would start posting to it when we finish this series but it seems some can't wait to get started with it.

 

I wish they would get back involved in it as well.

 

Fair question to Chidragon. He did cover the concept of the chapter though, as you pointed out, the difference between the Way of Heaven and the way lf man.

[deci belle]

[ChiDragon]

Chidragon, imho I do think the shengren 聖人 (sage) and the no-dwelling have some relevant context.

Would you mind sharing with us why you rule them out?

 

My source indicated that the last three lines were seem to be mistakenly repeated from the latter part of Chapter two. Anyway, this chapter was about the rich taken from the poor in reality. The mentioning of the sage seems irrelevant to the first part of Chapter 77.

[XieJia]

Thank you deci belle for your comment, and Chidragon for your answer.

 

May I suggest we look at this chapter with some Laozi's subtleties (My speculation).

 

The Way of Heaven is to diminish the abundant and nourish the lacking,

 

The Way of Man is to diminish the lacking and nourish the abundant.

 

Who that have the ability to nourish all under Heaven, only then have the Dao.

(Apply the Way of Heaven with this guy, Apply the Way of Man with this guy,

Looking from the way of Heaven, this person is superior to all under Heaven.

Looking from the way of Man, this person is inferior to all under Heaven.)

 

Thus

 

This is why Sages,

act without relying,

achieve without dwelling,

does not want to be seen as of any value.

 

The logic is hence complete; such person is superior through the way...

[dawei]

Although do wish to see Dawei's and Lienshan's insight aswell.

Thanks for the thought... I have been in china for a week now and maybe for 2 months, so just catching on when I have time. Not sure what that Dane's excuse is but I have found more recently to understand his thought... which is a little scary

[dawei]

And yes, XieJia... the logic is all there and flows to the end. The "bow" says is all.. so I can't see why one has to explain it but your clear comprehension is quite astounding

 

Dare I say, "next chapter" ?

Edited October 8, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Thus

 

This is why Sages,

1. act without relying,

2. achieve without dwelling,

3. does not want to be seen as of any value.

Since you took the time to translate the meaning of the ending I think it is worth some comment.

 

1. This conveys origin. Or it can mean result; Act without expectation (or want in return)

 

2. This is quite good

 

3. What value? We need a description of the kind of value.

 

Does not want to appear as wise or clever?

[Marblehead]

3. What value? We need a description of the kind of value.

 

Does not want to appear as wise or clever?

 

Because when one appears of value they will quickly be used up by others and will never be left alone to live their life as they wish. (I know this is sepping into Chuang Tzu's interpretation but how he built on it was truely amazing, IMO.)

[XieJia]

Since you took the time to translate the meaning of the ending I think it is worth some comment.

 

1. This conveys origin. Or it can mean result; Act without expectation (or want in return)

 

2. This is quite good

 

3. What value? We need a description of the kind of value.

 

Does not want to appear as wise or clever?

 

Thanks for the comment Dawei ;

 

1. I would think 'Act without expectation' would also be true to the meaning; since it implies Origin and Ending as you said. Acting without presumption and Acting without expectation of what one will gain or of what conceived consequence of the action. I think 'without relying' is harder to be misinterpret.

 

2. I won't touch this one then; it's not like it's much different from other translator any way.

 

3. The sage does not want to appear worthy according to the Way of Man, and thus provoking the Way of Heaven upon himself. Much like the your comment in the other chapter about Grounding and Rooting. There's no need for the Sage to stand from his action when he's one with it .

 

*One interesting note, when translating this few chapter. I feel that Grandpa Laozi's Dao is neither the Heaven's Dao or Man's Dao. Thus something wider than that, and thus how Man can cultivate De.

 

@Sir Chidragon

I'd still look more toward more of your comments, I think we all some thoughts to share here .

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for the comment Dawei ;

 

1. I would think 'Act without expectation' would also be true to the meaning; since it implies Origin and Ending as you said. Acting without presumption and Acting without expectation of what one will gain or of what conceived consequence of the action. I think 'without relying' is harder to be misinterpret.

 

 

 

reminds me of Liu I Ming's "Awakening to the Tao"; holes become filled, mounds are leveled, he who exhalts himself will be humbled...

Edited October 9, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Protector]

I'm so sorry I can't read anymore. Every chapter, I see there's a way to pick up girls with it.

[Marblehead]

reminds me of Liu I Ming's "Awakening to the Tao"; holes become filled, mounds are leveled, he who exhalts himself will be humbled...

 

"I'm so sorry I can't read anymore. Every chapter, I see there's a way to pick up girls with it."

 

Hehehe. Yeah, that did sound very sexually oriented, didn't it?

 

(Or maybe it is just where the mind of the reader is when reading it.)

[Protector]

 

(Or maybe it is just where the mind of the reader is when reading it.)

 

ey!

 

For example, this chapter uses a bow to indirectly describe something abstract and indescribable as TAOOOO. Water it down to the the most basic principle in your head so you don't think about the bow, then apply it to whatever comes to mind. LIEK PICKIN UP CHIX

 

Who except a man of the Tao can put his superabundant riches to the service of the world?

[ChiDragon]

@Sir Chidragon

I'd still look more toward more of your comments, I think we all some thoughts to share here .

 

******* Out of context *******

13.是 以 聖 人 為 而 不 恃 ，

14.功 成 而 不 處 ,

15.其 不 欲 見 賢 !

 

13. Thus a sage has the ability for multiple accomplishment without being vainglorious,

14. He does not dwell in his own success,

15. He does not want to reveal his intellectual wisdom.

 

These lines had nothing to do with given the excess to the poor.

Edited October 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

These lines had nothing to do with given the excess to the poor.

 

See? I'm not the only one who feels that additions were made to the original that is generally attributed to Lao Tzu.

[dawei]

Sorry.... can't buy the 'addition' argument for this section for the following reasons:

1. It's in the oldest MWD text; how does it get added to the oldest text?

2. The character usage is consistent to the MWD and not the next FuYi text.

3. The progress is as follows:

a. The Way of Heaven

b. The Way of Man

c. The way of the Man of the Way

d. .... any guess what would logically be next... "Therefore the Sage..."

4. This is NOT about the bow and NOT about giving to the poor; These are simply human examples. If you only take a limited humanistic view, then we can just claim anything is added in any chapter. It's about the Way of Heaven (Dao). And in general the distributional and effectual results. What distribution and effect does the bow have when pulled? It has the similar distribution and effect of the Great Way when it moves.

 

Therefore whan a Sage 'acts', what is the effect? One of not relying.

And having achieved? One of not dwelling.

And his want/desire? One of not displaying.

Edited October 10, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Excellent counter-arguement Dawei!

[ChiDragon]

Excellent counter-arguement Dawei!

 

Hammered it to fit....???

 

IMO The last part of any chapter should be the conclusion of that chapter. However, it seems to me that the last three lines of this chapter started a new theme about a sage. It may sound like it was related to the basic theme as shown in lines 7 thru 12 but it was not.

 

7. The basic principle,

8. Remove the excess to replenish the deficiency.

9. The way of humanity was not so.

10. It takes away where there is a deficiency to give where there is plenty.

11. Who would offer their excess to the poor in the world?

12. Only those who are virtuous.

 

The main theme lies on these six lines. Lines 7 thru 11 sets up the conditions for being a virtuous person. It was not necessary to repeat that a sage is not vainglorious, here, because it was emphasized in Chapter Two already.

Edited October 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.

 

Excellent counter-counter-arguement ChiDragon.

 

It is so nice discussing understandings; we each have one.

[XieJia]

Lol

 

 

True, I did try to hammer it into the chapter since I can't answer the question of why is it there in the first place.

In DDJ, there are many chapters where we see that somehow these funny lines popped out from the middle of nowhere. If it's not there originally, I'd still think it's useful to try to understand why it is there; I don't think the ancient will easily make Typo's. Even so anyone's Typos should show us the person's thought process.

 

imho, whether the this chapter is with the last three lines or without the last three lines does not really matter that much. As we know that Laozi's Dao De Jing are divided up into two parts; One about the Way and the Other about Virtue. Where we understood that chapter 2 is in the the Way's discourse and chapter 77 is in the Virtue's discourse.

 

So there should be a reason why Virtue is man's cultivation of the Way.

If one throw away the Way, what is Virtue then? Without taking account of the Way.

 

So whether the three lines are in this chapter or not; the logic should still apply and links the Virtue with the Way.

 

May all be Well

Goodnight, It's late from this part of the world.

[dawei]

So whether the three lines are in this chapter or not; the logic should still apply and links the Virtue with the Way.

I try to keep at least two thoughts to guard against wanting to quickly to remove sections:

1. It is a patchwork of an oral tradition, so there are many hands in the cookie jar.

2. To not force perfectionist attitude on the text since to do is often due to our own lack of understanding rather than the text's misplacement.

 

So I agree with the approach to try and understand what the line(s) in question mean and how they might actually fit in. There is just too much imagery, innuendo, and metaphor shifting back and forth between the Way of Man and Heaven. And as you pointed out earlier (was it this chapter?), there are times what appears to be described is bigger then the Way of Man or Heaven which is something I feel also about the concept of Dao; it is itself just a part of some whole.

 

We know from other chapters that not everyone can understand the Way... so we have to accept this as well.

[XieJia]

I try to keep at least two thoughts to guard against wanting to quickly to remove sections:

1. It is a patchwork of an oral tradition, so there are many hands in the cookie jar.

2. To not force perfectionist attitude on the text since to do is often due to our own lack of understanding rather than the text's misplacement.

 

So I agree with the approach to try and understand what the line(s) in question mean and how they might actually fit in. There is just too much imagery, innuendo, and metaphor shifting back and forth between the Way of Man and Heaven. And as you pointed out earlier (was it this chapter?), there are times what appears to be described is bigger then the Way of Man or Heaven which is something I feel also about the concept of Dao; it is itself just a part of some whole.

 

We know from other chapters that not everyone can understand the Way... so we have to accept this as well.

 

Agreed; I rather disagree myself than that of the Ancient (Sounds abit confucian on one level)

But there's also the grounding and rooting on the other .

 

In any text, the level is multi-dimensional; for example what is written and what is the 'I' that have written.

So by seeing the 名 (ming) the name and contrasting it with the 無 (wu); only thus would the name be truly understand.

 

As to my opinion about the Dao, there's the

Way of Heaven

Way of Man

Way of Tea

Way of Pottery, Calligraphy, Martial Arts, Swordmanship, Business, Management, Warfare, Peace.

There's Way of You, Way of Me.

 

There's the Way and its function.

The function of functions.

 

I have mumbled too far, there's really no need to state it, but no need in not sharing it either.

 

May all be Well,

Xiejia