[TTC Study] Chapter 77 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

For example, this chapter uses a bow to indirectly describe something abstract and indescribable as TAOOOO.

What's described is objective and concrete! My booooring explanation:

 

天之道 (Heaven its Tao)

人之道 (Man his Tao)

 

The personal pronoun 之 marked in classical chinese the following character as an objective noun. The Tao described in the beginning of this chapter is therefore the confucian Tao of Heaven producing rain growing the plants and the Man's taxcollecters knock at the doors after harvest. But are they able to collect abstract and indescribable Tao? No, and that's why the sage grow subjective Tao ... which never is preceeded by a 之 in the chapters I've read untill now.

[XieJia]

that's why the sage grow subjective Tao ...

 

Hey Lienshan, this is a interesting observation and a good point.

Can you share with us more about this subjective Dao?

[lienshan]

Can you share with us more about this subjective Dao?

The three last lines of Henricks translation is the subjective pointe of this chapter:

 

Therefore the Sage take actions but does not possess them;

Accomplishes his tasks but does not dwell on them.

Like this, is his desire not to make a display of his worthiness.

 

ChiDragon's native scholar misses the pointe because he doesn't read 之 the classical way

and therefore can't understand how the three lines complement the first lines

[Marblehead]

(Thinking.)

 

(Should I say something?)

 

(Naw.)

[ChiDragon]

(Thinking.)

 

(Should I say something?)

 

(Naw.)

Ditto.

Naw................

[XieJia]

之

 

Lienshan, there are 之 in chapter 78 aswell; could you help us read them?

 

(Thinking.)

 

(Should I say something?)

 

(Naw.)

 

 

Ditto.

Naw................

 

 

May All be Well...

[lienshan]

The term 人之道 (Man his Tao) doesn't occur in Zhuangzi but 聖人之道 (Sage his Tao) 9 times.

 

The terms 人之道 (Man his Tao) and 天之道 (Heaven its Tao) occur in two confucian texts:

 

Mengzi, Li Lou I: 天之道也 思誠者 人之道也

Therefore, sincerity is the way of Heaven. To think how to be sincere is the way of man.

 

Li Ji, Zhong Yong: 誠者 天之道也 誠之者 人之道也

Sincerity is the way of Heaven. The attainment of sincerity is the way of men.

 

(James Legge translations)

 

Tao of Man and Tao of Heaven are Tao of something objective.

Tao of Sage is Tao of something subjective, because a Sage isn't something objective.

A man / woman is objective, but what makes the person a Sage is something subjective.

Edited October 11, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Tao of Man and Tao of Heaven are Tao of something objective.

Tao of Sage is Tao of something subjective, because a Sage isn't something objective.

A man / woman is objective, but what makes the person a Sage is something subjective.

 

That is an interesting thought.

 

Ha! I haven't digested it yet.

 

Maybe I'll think more on it later.

[lienshan]

It's hard to see the thought when Robert Henricks translates the Mawangdui line:

 

Now, who is able to have a surplus and use it to offer to Heaven?

Clearly, it's only the one who possesses the Way.

 

The corresponding chinese text has the 乎 '?' not in the middle but at the end:

 

余夫孰能又余而以取奉於天之唯又者乎

 

My own translation of this single Mawangdui rethorical question:

 

I and men which one is able to have an additional I

similar to a received gift from the Heaven and only addition the Tao?

Edited October 20, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

道者: a virtuous person, someone who practices to principles of Tao which is tao(small t)....

[Marblehead]

Okay. Back to what I originally quoted:

 

"Tao of Man and Tao of Heaven are Tao of something objective."

 

I don't like this. (Sorry.)

 

Better (in my mind):

 

"The Way of Man and the Way of Heaven are the way of something objective."

 

Now, ... I disagree with this.

 

The Way of Heaven is objective. The Way of Man is subjective. Even the Way of the Sage is subjective.

 

All things are objective until the mind of man gets involved. Any thought on "what is" is a subjective thought.

[lienshan]

道者: a virtuous person, someone who practices to principles of Tao which is tao(small t)....

天者: a heavenly person, someone who practices to principles of Heaven which is heaven (small h)

[ChiDragon]

天者: a heavenly person, someone who practices to principles of Heaven which is heaven (small h)

 

You have a five year old mind. Monkey does monkey saw

 

天者: An messenger from heaven; an angel.

 

PS...

You need a good teacher to teach you some logic....

Edited October 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You guys are funny.

[dawei]

You have a five year old mind. Monkey does monkey saw

 

天者: An messenger from heaven; an angel.

 

PS...

You need a good teacher to teach you some logic....

 

You originally wrote:

 

Chapter 77

 

11. Who would offer their excess to the poor in the world?

12. Only those who are virtuous.

 

11.孰 能 有 餘 以 奉 天 下 ?

12.唯 有 道 者 。

 

But the original character was 天 者 instead of 天 下

 

So does your translation then get changed to:

Who would offer their excess to the poor in the angels?

 

 

Just trying to follow the logic.

 

 

----

 

Here is the shift that occurs. I think even a five year old would come up with a better translation than 'angel' here ( and among all the pre-han text usages we see for 天者, used by Confucians, Legalists, Art of War, Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine, The Yi Jing, Lao Zi, etc).

 

MWD A

孰能有餘而有以取奉於天者乎

□□□□

 

MWD B

孰能又余而□□奉於天之唯

又道者乎

 

FuYi:

孰能損有餘而奉不足於天下者。

其惟道者乎。

 

HSG:

孰能有餘以奉天下？

唯有道者

 

WB:

孰能有餘以奉天下，

唯有道者。

[ChiDragon]

Please don't be ridiculous and don't confuse the issue here. I was only quoting lienshan without context.

I was translating 天者 as a term by itself. Do you need some Chinese lessons too...??? I thought you knew more than that....!!!

 

 

PS...

Please remember, by your responses and comments, one will know how much that you really know.

Edited October 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

[dawei]

Please don't be ridiculous and don't confuse the issue here. I was only quoting lienshan without context.

I was translating 天者 as a term by itself. Do you need some Chinese lessons too...??? I thought you knew more than that....!!!

 

 

PS...

Please remember, by your responses and comments, one will know how much that you really know.

Exactly my thoughts when I read your comments... completely baseless. Stick to context instead of monkeying around and pulling everyone's chain.

[ChiDragon]

dawei....

I never really understand you. Let's not have anymore of this kind of useless encounters. Please let lienshan speak for himself. If you don't like it. You don't need to respond.

Edited October 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

[lienshan]

Better (in my mind):

 

"The Way of Man and the Way of Heaven are the way of something objective."

 

Now, ... I disagree with this.

 

The Way of Heaven is objective. The Way of Man is subjective. Even the Way of the Sage is subjective.

Here's another quote from the Mawangdui text 'Yi Zhi Yi' that the scholars agree is a confucian text:

 

是以立天之道曰陰與陽

立地之道曰柔與剛

立人之道曰仁與義

 

With this view they exhibited (in them) the way of heaven, calling (the lines) yin and yang;

the way of earth, calling (them) the weak and the strong;

and the way of men, under the names of benevolence and righteousness.

(Legge translation)

 

天之道 the way of heaven 地之道 the way of earth 人之道 the way of men

 

When Laozi used terms like above was it because he converted to confucianism here in chapter 77

Or did he quote these confucian terms in order to question them here in chapter 77

[Marblehead]

Here's another quote from the Mawangdui text 'Yi Zhi Yi' that the scholars agree is a confucian text:

 

是以立天之道曰陰與陽

立地之道曰柔與剛

立人之道曰仁與義

 

With this view they exhibited (in them) the way of heaven, calling (the lines) yin and yang;

the way of earth, calling (them) the weak and the strong;

and the way of men, under the names of benevolence and righteousness.

(Legge translation)

 

天之道 the way of heaven 地之道 the way of earth 人之道 the way of men

 

When Laozi used terms like above was it because he converted to confucianism here in chapter 77

Or did he quote these confucian terms in order to question them here in chapter 77

 

Well, Let's look at conventional thought:

 

Lao Tzu - Born - 602 BC

Confucius - Born - 551 BC

 

I doubt that "Confucian Thought" existed during Lao Tzu's lifetime so Lao Tzu could not be parroting Confucius.

 

Perhaps these terms "benevolence and righteousness" for the perfect man existed even before Lao Tzu's time.

 

And remember too, during Confucius' early life he supposedly spent all his free time in libraries reading everything he could get his hands on. This would suggest that much of what Confucius said had already been said by someone else. If anything, I would thing that Confucius borrowed a lot from what was and what was to become Taoist Philosophy.

[lienshan]

Lao Tzu - Born - 602 BC

Confucius - Born - 551 BC

 

I doubt that "Confucian Thought" existed during Lao Tzu's lifetime so Lao Tzu could not be parroting Confucius.

天道 without 之 occurs in your new chapter 79 too Henricks-translated 'the way of heaven'?

天道 without 之 is explained in 'Questions of Duke Ai' to Confucius (no. 12) :

 

The duke said: 'I venture to ask what it is that the superior man values in the way of Heaven?'

Confucius replied: 'He values its unceasingness. There is, for instance, the succession and sequence of the sun and moon from the east and west - that is the way of Heaven. There is the long continuance of its progress without interruption - that is the way of Heaven. There is its making all things complete without doing anything - that is the way of Heaven. There is their brilliancy when they have been completed - that is the way of Heaven.'

[dawei]

dawei....

I never really understand you. Let's not have anymore of this kind of useless encounters. Please let lienshan speak for himself. If you don't like it. You don't need to respond.

Then stop being such a self-promoting, trolling asshole. Get it yet????????????

 

Stop your Bullshit and stick to the study.

[ChiDragon]

Then stop being such a self-promoting, trolling asshole. Get it yet????????????

 

Stop your Bullshit and stick to the study.

 

I will stop all the BS with you....