[TTC Study] Chapter 78 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[XieJia]

Lol, the water torrent is fast isn't it? hehehe

[Marblehead]

Lol, the water torrent is fast isn't it? hehehe

 

Yep.

 

Did you notice the first two lines of the English/Feng? I liked that. The word "yielding" is key for me.

[XieJia]

Let me dig it a little bit; would like to play with the character and see whether it could say something different.

 

After some pondering, I think the second line could be look in a different light; as well as the interpretation of the last three lines.

 

but there could still be problem with my english comprehension.

Edited October 9, 2011 by XieJia

[Jeff]

Yep.

 

Did you notice the first two lines of the English/Feng? I liked that. The word "yielding" is key for me.

 

Agreed. Also, pliant or flexible.

 

Anyone have some thoughts on what the water is supposed to represent?

 

Enjoy the weekend.

[XieJia]

Agreed. Also, pliant or flexible.

 

Anyone have some thoughts on what the water is supposed to represent?

 

Enjoy the weekend.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

imho, Water itself is a fluid. Fluid is something that undergoes constant change depending on forces applied and the shape of its vessel.

 

It could represent Time, Impermanence, the ever-changing nature of the manifested, the metamorphosis, the transformation or just water .

 

I was hoping I covered all the possibilities so that I can't be right or wrong.

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

 

imho, Water itself is a fluid. Fluid is something that undergoes constant change depending on forces applied and the shape of its vessel.

 

It could represent Time, Impermanence, the ever-changing nature of the manifested, the metamorphosis, the transformation or just water .

 

I was hoping I covered all the possibilities so that I can't be right or wrong.

 

XieJia,

 

Thanks for your response. What about possibly thinking about in terms of Ying & Yang? Water vs. stone(or hard & strong) in us?

 

Or, maybe you are right, and it is just water...

 

[XieJia]

XieJia,

 

Thanks for your response. What about possibly thinking about in terms of Ying & Yang? Water vs. stone(or hard & strong) in us?

 

Or, maybe you are right, and it is just water...

 

 

Jeff,

 

Oh! I thought I covered all possibility. You got me!

Yin & Yang could also be use I think.

 

But maybe there are not entirely that different.

[Marblehead]

Agreed. Also, pliant or flexible.

 

Anyone have some thoughts on what the water is supposed to represent?

 

Enjoy the weekend.

 

Water is a paradox. It is both soft but yet can destroy the hardest of things. It can be so still that one can shave by their reflection it it yet it can be so active that nothing can be seen because of its activity.

 

Water is both Yen and Yang. It takes whatever polarity is required at any point in time. It simply does what needs to be done. The perfection of Wu Wei.

[Jeff]

 

But maybe there are not entirely that different.

 

Agreed.

 

In a family, who really rules? And, is it as water, or as stone?

 

[XieJia]

 

 

Jeff,

 

Without stone, how can we use the water?

 

Without water, what use is the stone?

 

 

Think this is the meaning of the last line; thanks for pointing this out.

 

@MH

I like your explanation

Edited October 9, 2011 by XieJia

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I really like how this chapter brings an important message of successful and effective leadership in reminding us that the leader is actually the lowest servant since their job is to help all the other people to do their parts.

 

This is actual job of the leader -- to ensure that the "subordinates" are able to do their job effectively, by providing them with the resources, organized planning, and information they need to do their part. Taking this role in this proper way is rarely understood, but subordinates have much more respect for a leader that works this way, as discussed in chapter 77 ("the humble will be exalted"), and people will also be happier to work harder, in harmony, for someone who works for them in this way even though they don't necessarily have to. It works like magic as a trickle down effect of workplace morale, ime.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 78

1. There is nothing in the world that is softer than water.

2. But when it strikes any rigid object nothing can beat it.

4. There is nothing that can replace it.

5. The weak vanquishes the strong.

6. The softness vanquishes the hardness.

7. There is nobody in the world that doesn't know that,

8. Yet nobody can emulate that.

9. Thus the sage would say:

10. One who can withstand a country's humiliation,

11. He may become the king of a country.

12. One who can assume the responsibility of a country's calamity,

13. He may become the ruler of the world.

14. The positive words seem to be negative.

 

********

第七十八章

1. 天 下 莫 柔 弱 於 水 ;

2. 而 攻 堅 強 者 莫 之 能 勝 ,

4. 其 無 以 易 之 。

5. 弱 之 勝 強 ,

6. 柔 之 勝 剛 。

7. 天下莫不知,

8. 莫 能 行 。

9. 是 以 聖 人 云 :

10.受 國 之 垢 ,

11.是 謂 社 稷 主 ;

12.受 國 不 祥 ,

13.是 為 天 下 王 。

14.正 言 若 反

[Marblehead]

Your line 13 reminded me of a concept that is important to me: Taking resopnsibility for our actions.

 

Regarding the leader, he/she must not only take responsibility for his/her own actions but must also take responsibility for the actions of all those who are directly or indirectly under his/her command.

 

So it is true that such a person could be trusted with the direction of a country.

[XieJia]

Note:

As Jeff and Marblehead pointed out

 

One could use the Yin & Yang; Soft & Hard; Flexible & Rigid to gain more understanding from the last three lines.

 

Two sides of the Palm, the Yin & Yang nature and conditions complements each other.

The character here is 受 (shou) to bear, to accept, to receive.

 

What does it share with 'Water'?

 

The chapter could be read from a different light and it's not that obvious from the English translation.

 

We can view that the two polarities of Hard and Soft; giving birth, complementing while it is not obvious from the English translations, they seems to be translating only one way of looking at the text which is as two opposing and overcoming.

Edited October 10, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

Yeah. I think we all too often get delusional when we hold to close to dualities. Many times they are useful but other times dualistic thinking offers us a false truth.

 

I like your thought: Complimenting each other. That is so positive instead of opposites opposing each other, which, to me, is rather negative.

[XieJia]

Water is both Yen and Yang. It takes whatever polarity is required at any point in time. It simply does what needs to be done. The perfection of Wu Wei.

 

I like your thought: Complimenting each other. That is so positive instead of opposites opposing each other, which, to me, is rather negative.

 

It's not mine, I actually puts your thought and Jeff's together.

[Marblehead]

It's not mine, I actually puts your thought and Jeff's together.

 

Yeah, but you said it - I didn't get that far. Hehehe.

[Elliot]

I feel as if we are encouraged here to be gentle and patient like water.

"Water is so soft it cannot be damaged" - Wayne Dyer.

you can boil water, and get vapors, drink it and it returns after nourishing your body. Pollute it and it will return after enough time.

It can do all of this because it is soft and flexible.

Emulate water, don't be forceful, be calm and allowing.