Taoism U.K

[BlueCliffWanderer]

Hello All

 

There is a new development occurring within the United Kingdom in regards to Taoism and Spiritual Practice

 

Here is the web-link

 

www.jingattiig.webs.com

 

Thank you all for your support

Edited October 10, 2011 by BlueCliffWanderer

[三江源]

hey bluecliff, your link here is no worky.

 

the link in your profile works.

[mewtwo]

Idk um this feels like spam to me. Normally i dont care about this stuff but today feels different.

[fiveelementtao]

Idk um this feels like spam to me. Normally i dont care about this stuff but today feels different.

here is a working link http://www.jingattiig.webs.com/

Well, it is certainly advertisement and self-promotion. Nothing necessarily wrong with that if pertinent and true. I wouldn't call it spam. I do agree that there is something fishy going on (not necessarily with BlueCW but with his teacher) It is undoubtedly pertinent being of a Taoist nature. Bluecliffwanderer seems sincere enough But some things regarding the monastery where he trained are unclear to me though...

 

I googled Tao Wu Shin monastery and found this site. http://taowushinmonastery.org so, the monastery mentioned definitely exists and the grandmaster is named Wolf. So, that checks out. But neither site gives any information about what Taoist sect this comes from.

 

From the Tao Wu Shin website, Grandmaster Wolf says about himself," Wolf Attiig is an Ordained Taoist Monk and has been since the early seventies. He has studied Tibetan Mind Studies (??) for six years whilst living in a Tibetan Monastery (which monastery?) deep in the Himalayas. Wolf spent another two years studying in a mystical Monastery (which monastery?) in Northern Thailand."

 

Master Wolf is not shy about promoting his exceptional abilities and the honors he claimed to have received but the fact that he does not say what organizations honored him is suspicious to me.

 

In terms of his ordination, Master Wolf suspiciously does not state from which sect(s) he received his ordination. Most ordained Taoists are very forthright in detailing, the sect, their teacher, their lineage etc... Wolf does not reveal any of that.

 

Another confusing fact is that Tibet is usually associated with Buddhism not Taoism. Thailand is also usually associated with buddhism not taoism.

 

Master Wolf's site has some photo galleries and from what I could tell, the martial arts looked exactly like Shao Lin style hard martial arts or Japanese style Karate.

All of the instructors in the photos sport shaved heads which is reminiscent of Buddhist monks rather than Taoist adepts. Taoist monks and priests do not shave their heads. Buddhist monks do.

 

There are just too many inconsistencies and important details left out for me to think that this guy (Wolf) legitimately studied under an authentic Taoist lineage. Blue Cliff Wanderer is not to blame since he only knows what he was taught and/or told by Master Wolf. I think Master Wolf probably studied Shao Lin Kung Fu and wanted to promote himself as a Shao Lin Monk but knew that he could easily be proven a fraud and he mistakenly thought that it would be easier to pass himself off as a Taoist "monk" instead but didn't really understand the vast differences between Taoism and Buddhism. I might be wrong but that is the only way I can make sense of the Shao Lin looking style Kung fu, the shaved heads and the title of "ordained Taoist Monk" instead of "ordained priest." I could be wrong and if so I heartily apologize.

 

There are other things that seem fishy to me, but hey what do I know? In all seriousness, who cares about "authenticity". Maybe it's a great school. it seems to have been really healing and helpful to Bluecliffwanderer, so ultimately if it works for you and helps you... Who cares? Call yourself whatever you want. Proof is in the pudding...

 

Best of luck to bluecliffwanderer, I hope he is successful in creating his monastery.

Edited October 10, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Protector]

He can still be real depending on how much that necklace costs

[ChiDragon]

Taoist Warrior Monk.

 

It seems like that "Warrior Monk" is out of phase with "Taoist".

 

I don't see how they can be related together. A Taoist is a pacifist which is opposite of a warrior. Besides, a"monk" is applied to Buddhism; and a "priciest" is for Taoism.

[Bubbles]

It seems like that "Warrior Monk" is out of phase with "Taoist".

 

I don't see how they can be related together. A Taoist is a pacifist which is opposite of a warrior. Besides, a"monk" is applied to Buddhism; and a "priciest" is for Taoism.

 

Dear ChiDragon,

 

It is not so simple! Sometimes engaging exterior war is the Way, sometimes not. Being internally peaceful doesn't contradict with strong external actions. Perhaps you have already read this in your Chinese books. No?

The Way is smarter than our petty mental labels and categories.

Edited October 10, 2011 by bubbles

[Ish]

"Warrior Monk" was a high ideal for Shaolin Monks.

However, no reason why our Taoist internal martial arts masters can't be "warrior monks" also.

[ChiDragon]

I granted you that a Taoist has to withdrawn his sword from the sheath is the last resort, but that was not the original intent in the Taoism philosophy. Indeed, violence comes last but not the beginning to a Taoist.

Edited October 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[RiverSnake]

Cut my head off for saying so...but this guy looks like he just came out of The Matrix.

 

Seems like he's playing on some social archetype of being a bad ass to pull some lost sheep...or maybe i am wrong and he is a great cultivator. Who knows?

[BlueCliffWanderer]

Hello to the group

 

What a mess, what a mess.

 

How can suspicion keep your belly satisfied ?

 

Rolling in the Tao,

Confusion abound within their heads,

Where to find the remedy ?

Where to find the relief ?

 

Would you like to know how real I am ?

 

Lets meet !

 

hope this settles some confusion

 

Jing

[ChiDragon]

"Warrior Monk" was a high ideal for Shaolin Monks.

However, no reason why our Taoist internal martial arts masters can't be "warrior monks" also.

 

The Shaolin monk warriors trained with martial arts were utilized to protect the temple. The original intent was not to be warriors.

 

The original intention of martial arts for Taoists was for health. It happens to be enabling them for self defense. Again, their original intent was not to become a warrior.

[Bubbles]

I granted you that a Taoist has to withdrawn his sword from the sheath is the last resort, but that was not the original intent in the Taoism philosophy. Indeed, violence comes last but not the beginning to a Taoist.

 

I am afraid the ultimate meaning of Taoist philosophy is well summarized by Wittgenstein words " What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." 7th proposition of the Tractatus Logico-philosophicus.

 

We could with a little mental effort make a difference between violence and the use of force. This was my point: because violence could be primarily defined by the intention to harm while the use of force could be just functional when the situation requires it and not when ego motives chime in.

[ChiDragon]

Hello to the group

 

What a mess, what a mess.

 

How can suspicion keep your belly satisfied ?

 

Rolling in the Tao,

Confusion abound within their heads,

Where to find the remedy ?

Where to find the relief ?

 

Would you like to know how real I am ?

 

Lets meet !

 

hope this settles some confusion

 

Jing

 

The confusion was initiated from the first impression of the Title. To convey an idea from a title, one should not has to do any future persuasion.

[fiveelementtao]

Jing,

This isn't idle suspicion. Your teacher's claims do not make sense. Something is fishy with him...

 

No one here is attacking your "realness" here. I, for one, am convinced you are sincere and truthful. I think you have done everything you say you have. I think you are exactly what you say you are. However, I think you have been duped by your teacher. I think he is a fraud in that he is not a traditionally ordained Taoist. He may be great martial artist and a very spiritual guy. His monastery may be a wonderful spiritual place and whatever he teaches may be incredible. Master Wolf has the right to call himself a Taoist Monk if he chooses. He has the right to call himself whatever he wants as do we all. The mistake he made was in trying to pass himself off as a traditionally "ordained Taoist." Had he just been honest and stated that he had created his own style of spirituality that he chose to call Taoist, he would escape scrutiny. But you and he should know that to claim to be a traditionally ordained Taoist is no small claim and can be very easily verified or disproved.

 

Here is an example of a Western person ordained in a traditional Taoist lineage. http://www.daoistmagic.com/info.php?i=2128 Your teacher should have similar traceable verifications to his claims

 

The way in which Master Wolf makes claims of Taoist ordination shows a complete misunderstanding of traditional Taoism. Anyone with even a small amount of knowledge of traditional taoism would have not made the glaring mistakes master Wolf has done in his bio. And as his student, you should know these things, because as you meet more Taoists with real connections to traditional lineages, I can guarantee that you will be continually challenged on the many mistakes your teacher has made in his claims and it will reflect on you poorly. It is better that you hear it here on a forum than in public.

 

With all earnestness, I have no personal agenda to badmouth or malign anyone's reputation. If your teacher's claims did not scream of fraud, I would say nothing. I believe you are sincere and have accepted your teacher's claims in good faith. But, you should know that his bio is very suspicious. If you are serious about this path, you should ask him about these questions and research what traditional Taoist ordination entails to determine for yourself his authenticity.

 

Here are some things you should ask Master Wolf about:

 

What sect of Taoism did he study?

Who is the founder of the sect he studied in?

What are the names of his teachers?

What taoist lineage is he from?

Did he recieve a Lu "register" when he was ordained?

Why does he use the term "monk" instead of "priest."

Why does he shave his head like a buddhist?

If he did not study in China, what Taoist mountain or temple did his sect originally come from?

 

Taoism is Chinese in origin. It did not originate in Tibet or Thailand. Any officially recongnized Taoist monastery outside of China would very prominently proclaim it's connection the original sect and temple in China that is connected to.

 

No traditionally ordained Taoist would ever claim to be so without proudly and publicly listing the names of their sect, the names of their teachers, the name of their lineage, the taoist mountain or temple their sect is originally from. Master Wolf shares none of these. This is very suspcious. The names of these things would be recongizable among traditional taoists and could be verified. The fact that someone would omit these when claiming to be ordained is very suspicious.

 

Ordained Taoists do not go by the title of "monk." They go by the title of priest. As priests they have been given a register to authenticate their status as ordained by their lineage. A register "Lu" shows the rank the priest holds, the types of rituals that the priest has authority to perform and lists the spirits that the priest has been given power over. Master Wolf is silent here too.

 

IT seems that the shaved head is an indication of being ordained in your monastery. But you should know that it has nothing to do with Taoism. Shaving of the head is a buddhist ritual not taoist.

 

If he is really ordained in an authentic traditional taoist lineage, he would be able to immediately and proudly answer these questions. I suggest you ask him about these things. If he is unable or unwilling or hesitant in any way to answer any of these questions, it is a good sign that he is making up his credentials and if you want to be taken seriously as a teacher, I would drop the ordained taoist monk title. Call yourself whatever you want. I am sure your knowledge is very powerful and able to help many. But the "ordained Taoist Monk" title will end up reflecting very poorly on you and you will appear to be a fraud also by those with any understanding of traditional taoism.

 

I wish you the best of luck in creating your monastery,

Mike

 

 

 

 

Hello to the group

 

What a mess, what a mess.

 

How can suspicion keep your belly satisfied ?

 

Rolling in the Tao,

Confusion abound within their heads,

Where to find the remedy ?

Where to find the relief ?

 

Would you like to know how real I am ?

 

Lets meet !

 

hope this settles some confusion

 

Jing

[fiveelementtao]

The Shaolin monk warriors trained with martial arts were utilized to protect the temple. The original intent was not to be warriors.

 

The original intention of martial arts for Taoists was for health. It happens to be enabling them for self defense. Again, their original intent was not to become a warrior.

 

I am going to disagree with you here ChiDragon. This sounds like stuff from books. Tai Chi was originally designed to be a killing art. This is true of Xing Yi and Ba Gua also. Tai Chi only became associated with health benefits only in last century when it was taught to laymen. Taoist internal martial arts were first designed for warfare and killing. The health benefits were secondary side effects. Buddhists have always recognized Taoist internal martial arts as being superior and more efficient in battle.

[ChiDragon]

I am going to disagree with you here ChiDragon. This sounds like stuff from books. Tai Chi was originally designed to be a killing art. This is true of Xing Yi and Ba Gua also. Tai Chi only became associated with health benefits only in last century when it was taught to laymen. Taoist internal martial arts were first designed for warfare and killing. The health benefits were secondary side effects. Buddhists have always recognized Taoist internal martial arts as being superior and more efficient in battle.

 

I do agree that all martial arts are intended for fighting. It was all depend on the purpose or intent of the practitioner. I am only taken a stand on the side of the Taoist philosophy. The initial intent for being a Taoist is for good health and longevity. Their objective was not to be a warrior. That's all. However, they become defensive in using violence, due to external influence, in their later life is secondary to me.

 

BTW Xing Yi Quan(形意拳) and Ba Gua Quan(八卦掌) are the derivatives from Tai Ji Quan.

Edited October 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[fiveelementtao]

BTW Xing Yi Quan(形意拳) and Ba Gua Quan(八卦掌) are the derivatives from Tai Ji Quan.

 

Where did you hear that? Please provide references. I think you are mistaken. Xing Yi is universally considered to be the oldest of the Three. So Xing Yi could not have been derived from Tai Chi.

I think you are mistaken here....

[ChiDragon]

Where did you hear that? Please provide references. I think you are mistaken. Xing Yi is universally considered to be the oldest of the Three. So Xing Yi could not have been derived from Tai Chi.

I think you are mistaken here....

 

Yes, my mistake....

[fiveelementtao]

[fiveelementtao]

*******

******

Hi Taoneo,

 

I saw that you are a member of Jing's Forum on his website. I don't know your connection to Master Wolf or Jing. If he is your friend, I can understand your desire to protect your friend from someone who is exposing his teacher as a fraud. However, slinging clever insults at me won't change the objective facts... If you have knowledge that will explain these discrepencies and clear Wolf's name, I will be the first to apologize to any and all concerned and retract my statements. I have no need to falsely accuse anyone or mistakenly malign anyone's reputation.

 

I hold Taoism in very high regard and I do feel it is sad when someone like Wolf abuses the trust of others. It's bad enough that Wolf wants to falsely portray himself as something he is not. It is another thing altogether when he lies to sincere seekers like Jing who don't know any better... Better Jing know this now, then portray himself as Wolf's Protege to knowledgeable practitioners and suffer even worse humiliation when he meets traditional Taoist martial artists or teachers... Claiming to be a Taoist martial artist or teacher is fairly safe if done humbly. But claiming to be an "Ordained Taoist Warrior Monk" in certain traditional Taoist Martial Arts circles is like walking into South Central Los Angeles and claiming to be the new sheriff in town. I do not think Jing is aware of the ramifications of his claim...

 

I can tell you that if he or anyone walked into my teacher's Kung Fu class claiming to be an "Ordained Taoist Warrior Monk" he would have to prove it with some very serious skill. If Wolf or any of his students went to my Sigung's (my teacher's teacher's) class and claimed he was an ordained Taoist Warrior monk, he would leave on a stretcher just for making the claim. Wolf does not understand that when he falsely ordains his students as Taoist Warrior Monks, that he may be putting them into very serious physical danger if they go around tossing that label around especially while simultaneously sporting shaved heads and dressing in all black. So, you may think I am being unkind by exposing a fraud, but if Jing listens to the facts, he may very well prevent himself some serious physical injury, not to mention emotional humiliation. As I see it, I am his best friend in this instance because at least I am letting him know what he is implying with his statements...

 

I've been studying and teaching Taoist internal martial arts for 20 years and there are Traditional Taoist Martial Arts circles and classes (within my own sect) that I would never even think of claiming to be a Taoist Martial Arts student not to mention "Warrior Monk" because I know I would have to fight my way out of there. Claiming to be an "Ordained Warrior Monk" is seen in the traditional circles I trained in as an outright challenge to "take on all comers." I do not think Jing understands this..

 

TaoNeo, If you really want to help Jing out, then perhaps ask whether it is kinder to Jing to Co-sign his belief in Master Wolf or to take an honest look at the objective evidence...

 

Jing and any others who might wish to study with Master Wolf deserve to know the Truth about his claims. I would want to know the Truth if I were in his position... In any case, if Jing is traveling around the UK and trying to gain support for a monastery in Wolf's lineage, JIng and his teacher will undoubtedly be scrutinized by many other knowledgeable practitioners who will see the very obvious holes in Wolf's claims. I certainly will not be the first to point them out to him...

Edited October 21, 2011 by Apech
quoted message deleted at members request

[fiveelementtao]

Never mind

Edited October 20, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Protector]

*cough*

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/user/11038-sifu-wolf/

 

welp, definitely not a spam

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/user/13052-jing-attiig/

Edited October 28, 2011 by Sinfest